GO diverts from STN - Shock Horror!

[Ops Bangle]

More skewed reporting from the Beeb (Radio 5 Live).. .. .They had a woman passenger from a flight from NCL to STN that had to divert to EMA "as one of the pilot's wasn't trained to land in bad weather" (gasps all round).. .. .The official GO report was along the lines that the weather was at CAT III limits (?) but one of the crew had not completed the 3 autolands so they were operating to CAT I limits.. .. .The passenger was asked "had she flown since" as though it was a major incident. More comments along the line "well I won't want to go on a bus with a driver who couldn't park!?". .. .How do these stories get so much prominence? I they want some real stories perhaps they should note how many people were killed today on our crumbling overcrowded road structure.

[Puritan]

Also reported by icnewcastle.icnetwork.co.uk (in association with the Evening Chronicle) No-frills pilot could not land plane in fog. .. .Nb. (Hence the thread edit) Sorry, but I can't seem to get the hyperlink above to work, a space keeps appearing in the word 'siteid' so I've repro'd it below: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">No-frills pilot could not land plane in fog. .. .Mar 22 2002 - By The Evening Chronicle. . . . . .Geordie jet passengers were stunned when the captain announced he didn't know how to land the plane in bad weather.. .. .Nearly 100 passengers on a flight out of Newcastle Airport to London's Stansted Airport couldn't believe their ears when their captain told them he was on a training flight and could not land in fog.. .. .The jet was forced to turn back and land at another airport with clearer weather.. .. .Now the Chronicle can reveal the no-frills airline Go is flying up to 20,000 people to and from the North East every month using some pilots who are not qualified to land in fog.. .. .A mum of two, from Gateshead, who was on last Friday's flight said: "If I had known this I would never have flown with them.. .. ."I would rather pay more and feel safe. When he told us this in the air I was terrified.". .. .Go says not all its pilots are trained to fly at its so-called Category Three A level. This qualifies pilots to land in foggy conditions - when visibility is less than 200 metres.. .. .Go's policy came to light after the flight which left Newcastle for Stansted circled above Stansted Airport while the pilot told passengers he was on a training flight and did not know how to land in fog.. .. .The plane was forced to fly to East Midlands Airport, where conditions were clear.. .. .The 92 anxious passengers had to wait on the East Midlands runway for nearly an hour until the arrival of a Go flight from Malaga, which had a Category Three A trained pilot.. .. .The Malaga-flight pilot was whisked across the tarmac to take over the controls of the Stansted-bound plane, where relieved passengers greeted him with a round of applause. Three hours later than scheduled, the plane finally touched down at Stansted, re-uniting the passengers with their worried friends and families.. .. .Go, a key player in the cut-throat budget airline industry, began flying from Newcastle to London last November and carried 70,000 passengers in its first three months.. .. .A Go spokesman said: "We are not able to reveal how many pilots have received Go's Category Three A training.". .. .Go chief operating officer Capt Ed Winter said: "Go's number one priority is the safety of its passengers and crew, which is why we train our pilots to the rigorous standards set out by the Civil Aviation Authority, who have exactly the same rules for all airlines.. .. ."CAA rules state pilots joining all airlines, whether traditional or low cost, must carry out three auto-lands before they can land in Category Three A conditions.. .. ."Even if they have been fully qualified to Category Three A at their previous airline, on joining Go, we require them to repeat the procedure in a Go aircraft.. .. ."In this particular case there had been no fog forecast for this flight, but unfortunately fog came into Stansted very quickly. As one of the pilots on this flight had not completed three auto-lands with Go, we adhered to the strict rule that the aircraft could not land in the Category Three A conditions.. .. ."For that reason, the aircraft was diverted to East Midlands where a captain who was qualified boarded the aircraft and flew it to Stansted.. .. .On board GO 612. .. .Moments earlier we had been reading, dozing or planning our weekends.. .. .Now we sat gripping our seats trying to stay calm.. .. .We had started to wonder if something was wrong when we circled over Stansted Airport for half an hour without landing.. .. .I craned to see out of the window but the night sky was heavy with clouds.. .. .When the pilot's voice came over the loudspeaker a few minutes later saying he couldn't land because he was in training, people gasped, hardly believing what they had heard.. .. .After a bumpy landing at East Midlands he came out of the cockpit and stood at the front of the cabin and apologised, admitting this flight was part of his training and that he had not yet been taught to land in fog.. .. .He looked embarrassed.. .. .Passengers reached for their mobile phones and started calling their families to tell them what had happened.. .. .The woman alongside me sat quiet and grim until I turned to her.. .. .As others nodded sympathetically she told me she was scared and furious and vowed to write to Go to demand an explanation .. .. .Meanwhile, an air stewardess walked down the aisle with forced calm and a smile, reassuring us we would not wait for long and that she would be handing out free soft drinks.. .. .Although we were on the tarmac for an hour we never got them. This was no-frills all the way.. .. .Smokers hovered with trembling hands at the exit, but there was to be no relief for them either.. .. .When a van eventually drew up at the side of the plane and another pilot climbed aboard we cheered and clapped with pure relief.. .. .Our ordeal ended 45 minutes later when we successfully touched down at Stansted at midnight - three hours late and still a little shaky.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">There are rules, they are there for a reason, and occasionally you have to stick to them.. .. .That said, it never ceases to amaze me at the comments that some people apparently come out with (and to think that they can vote too), in that I suppose if the pilots had broke the rules and done an auto-land, which they weren't qualified to do (they had been trained to, they knew how to, but they were not qualified to - there's a difference), then that'd be alright then (not), i.e. damned if you do, and damned if you don't !. .. .Still, the story is airline related and fills some column inches which therefore must make it alright - certainly from the standpoint of some Whiskey sozzled journo.. .. .Ps. I have some sympathy with the pilots plight as I too once had occasion to force a (Go) B737 to divert into Cambridge due to me not being Cat III at that particular moment in time - however, guessing at the fallout it'd involve, we just said that the fog was too thick to allow us to land Stansted - sometimes it pays not to be too honest with the punters <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />. . . . <small>[ 22 March 2002, 18:59: Message edited by: Puritan ]</small>

[Final 3 Greens]

Puritan. .. .Call me a pedant, but if one of the crew wasn't qualified for Cat 3, then the statement that it was too foggy to allow us to land at Stansted was both logical and utterly truthful!

[Puritan]

You're a pedant !

[Final 3 Greens]

Fair enough. .. .The day job is in management consulting, where pedantry is a core competence!

[IanSeager]

...from Annanova.... .. .A Go flight from Newcastle to Stansted was diverted because the pilot couldn't land in fog.. .. .The 92 passengers landed at East Midlands airport. A fully-trained pilot then flew them to Stansted where they arrived three hours late.. .. .Ian

[scanscanscan]

Three greens.... .For the record, as a consultant how many actual real world Cat3 autolands have you done as Captain or copilot?. .Where did you do them and on what aircraft types?

[Griffbms]

Attention:-. .IcNewcastle/Chronicle/Journal, or whatever inappropriate title you call your 'rags'!. .. .You are not even entitled to call yourselves 'Journalists' or 'professional', as you. .are seemingly quite incapable of reporting and assessing accurately, any factual information or aviation occurrence. . .. .In trying to concoct a story for your mediocre publications, you actually illustrate a complete lack of awareness and technical understanding of the subject itself. Also your editorial standpoint greatly undermines readership integrity. (In some cases anyway, although not necessarily in the case of so-called 'witnesses'!). .. .No doubt it would have been far more preferrable for your 'sit-com script-writers' in Newcastle, if legislation had been breached, safety compromised, and a much more dramatic situation ensued!. .. .As has been said on previous occasions..."Why let a good 'story' get in the way of the facts ?". . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" />. . . . <small>[ 22 March 2002, 19:38: Message edited by: Griffbms ]</small>

[Flintstone]

"Passengers reached for their mobile phones...". .. .Oh, really?

[slj]

Griffbms. .. .Send your editorial comments on this feature direct to [email protected]

[Puritan]

Hey, go easy on d3g, I know where he's coming from and imho he makes a very valid point, i.e. if you're not legal to do it then that's good enough reason not to do it.. .. .Perhaps the real problem is that through the professionalism and skill of all involved (pilots / air traffic controllers / aircraft manufacturers ), we've managed to make something that's bloody difficult (read dangerous) look mundane - and neither the travelling public or jouno's have any comprehension of what's involved.. .. .E.g. Assuming that it all goes to plan, i.e. no systems failures on along the way, we're talking about flying an airliner, full of priceless lives, toward the ground at a forward speed of about 150 MPH, with a forward visibility of 200m (Cat IIIA) or less ( for Cat IIIB ; and zero for Cat IIIC ), then landing on the runway, slowing down without coming off of it, finding an exit, and taxiing to the stand - just try some of that in your car on an empty M1 on a very foggy morning !. .. .However, and unfortunately, we live in a world where "Airliner Captain sticks to the rules and diverts causing pax a modest three hour delay (rather than an early arrival in to the next world)" does not the headlines grab.

[BEagle]

I heard this arrant piece of media-sensationalist tosh on Heart 106 whilst crawling back from Gatport Airwick thi afternoon.. .. .What would they have preferred - an unqualified pilot to have been involved in an accident 'attempting to land in fog'??. .. .Time to spare? Go by air. .More time yet? Make it a jet

[chrishowley]

The paper concerned is The Evening Chronicle and I believe the editor can be reached at: . .. [email protected]. .. .I suggest 'fully trained pilots' explain to her the truth of this non-incident.

[Firm Touchdown]

At The airline for which I am a trainer, and have worked on both Boeing 737 and Airbus. CAT III training is covered on the conversion course and a pilot is not allowed to complete his/her final line check until fully CAT III current.. .. .The only time a pilot could be out of check for Low Vis Ops,is if for unforseen circumstances it could not be covered on a recurrent check. This is very unusual and the person concerned is usually revalidated within 28 days.. .. .Is someone cutting corners here to save cost.. .. .Also, never admit to the passengers that you are under training. Unable to land due to the poor visibility covers it just fine.

[chrishowley]

Useful info Angry - thanks.. .. .As an outsider I may be out of place to make the following comments but hope they will usefully add to the debate. . .. .While I am sure that we all here are agreed (and have demonstrated it on numerous occassions) that this kind of journalism is nothing short of appalling, I think there is a lesson to be learnt. It continues to surprise me how nervous and uninformed about the great mysteries of flying passengers can be. Stories such as FO's being asked by passengers if they hope to learn to fly one day and the frequently held belief that I hear, that planes cannot fly and will immediately drop out of the sky if there is an engine failure (as it is quite obvious that engines produce all the lift and wings do not!) confirm this problem. I also suspect that professional pilots now behind locked doors with less passenger contact than before will find it increasingly difficult to remind themselves of these huge misperceptions. I suspect that there are a great number of people for whom flying is a rare a novel occurance.. .. .Because of this the words used to communicate with passengers have to be chosen carefully (in some cases ridiculously so!). However get it right and I believe it can do wonders for the industry. My only example of this (which I mentioned once before) is the practice I sometimes hear on BMI of Captains announcing that the F/O 'will be flying us to .... today'. I wonder how many more misconceptions about flying passengers have and how many of you have creat3ed announcements to overcome these - which could usefully be shared here? . .. .scanscanscan - sorry but I feel your comments to 3 greens are unhelpful - your question is irrelevant as he was usefully contributing to the thread - if you disagree with his views then I suggest you explain to him why. Also before you attack me, I am also a management consultant and will be forever envious of your career and also grateful to PPRUNE for contributing to my learning and enjoyment of aviation.

[Devils Advocate]

Angry, as I'm sure you know ( being a Training Captain "Quick ! All kneel and pay homage to the deity" ), some airlines believe that it's much better to be cautious and have pilots fly-the-line for a while and thereby get used to things - e.g. the aircraft type, SOP's, operational environments, etc, prior to dropping them in the deep end of Cat III approaches - and until such time their minima is set higher, i.e. the normal Cat 1 or II, and which is still pretty low.. .. .Further, as a trainer, you'll appreciate the value of having your crews turning up for the sim being more, how shall I say, 'on the ball' (aka experienced) certainly so when it comes to examining the finer points of systems failures inside the OM and / or its equivalent point (you know what I mean) in that such a crew will be much better able to assimilate the training, and this must surely therefore be taken to be of a higher value than the same training being imparted to a rookie pilot fresh out of both Oxford and a jet type conversion course.. .. .Accordingly such a stance can therefore hardly be viewed as penny pinching, indeed it might be seen in the reverse in that one might say that rushing ones newly recruited / type-rated crews into low visibility (aka All Weather) Ops is a recipe for disaster ...... almost a case of commercial pressures dictating the policy of the training department ?!. .. .There again, maybe it's simply a case that B737 simulator is just not available / bookable when one wants it - which, as a trainer, I'm sure that you'll be very aware of.. .. .Uhm, so which airline is it you work for then ?. . . . <small>[ 23 March 2002, 01:15: Message edited by: Devils Advocate ]</small>

[Final 3 Greens]

scanscanscan. .. .As a management consultant I have done zero autolands. (Hint - management consultants consult rather than fly.)

[acm]

The Captain on that flight made a very honest PA. But some time you're better not say all the truth to passengers. He should not have said he was on training and just inform the passengers that the wx was below minimum. Don't give any detail which could be poorly understood.

[vegas_jonny]

Absolutely right acm....some folk seem perilously unaware of how comments made in PAs etc can be (mis)construed. Sometimes the less said the better!

[Bearcat]

Me Thinks if a bit of thought went into the PA none of this would have happened. As we all know is is a reg occurance where a newly promoted Capt is flying and is only Cat 1 for a period of time likewise with new F/O's.. .. .Pax always dissect PA's and this is a classic. I am sorry for the skipper.