Air Atlanta Cargo incident Sharjah 07/11/04
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I guess I really unloaded last night, but this was building up for a long time.
Their are many crew members at AAI that want and are willing to do a good job and try to do so.
Upper management and crew planning managment individuals prevent this.
Ground enginering try to do the best they can, but as I seen is KUL last year they are hampered also, parts availability management pushing the aircraft etc.
Then they have the new contract guy, trying to cut pay even further.
Then trying to get us to believe a 20 percent reduction in pay with days off was in our best interest.
Was born at night,,, but not last night!
I said any AAI crew were welcome in my home this year in KSA for Christmas.
My invitation is still valid.
My complaints is not with the crew or ground engineering, just managment and the methods in which they operate.
Their are many crew members at AAI that want and are willing to do a good job and try to do so.
Upper management and crew planning managment individuals prevent this.
Ground enginering try to do the best they can, but as I seen is KUL last year they are hampered also, parts availability management pushing the aircraft etc.
Then they have the new contract guy, trying to cut pay even further.
Then trying to get us to believe a 20 percent reduction in pay with days off was in our best interest.
Was born at night,,, but not last night!
I said any AAI crew were welcome in my home this year in KSA for Christmas.
My invitation is still valid.
My complaints is not with the crew or ground engineering, just managment and the methods in which they operate.
Last edited by Earl; 2nd Dec 2004 at 19:13.
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My complaints is not with the crew or ground engineering, just managment and the methods in which they operate.
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411A
Couldn't agree more with your coments as regards to minimun fuel.
I have always maintaned the point of view that, if I am "called in" and given a hard time for carrying extra fuel, that is the day I leave. Period.
Often the legal minimum F/P fuel required is not enough. In parts of the "third world", very often it isn't enough.
The only time one has too much fuel, is when there is a fire.
Couldn't agree more with your coments as regards to minimun fuel.
I have always maintaned the point of view that, if I am "called in" and given a hard time for carrying extra fuel, that is the day I leave. Period.
Often the legal minimum F/P fuel required is not enough. In parts of the "third world", very often it isn't enough.
The only time one has too much fuel, is when there is a fire.
Last edited by doubleu-anker; 3rd Dec 2004 at 00:03.
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Hear-Hear!!! as one crew recently found out!!! especially given the complete lack of current weather reports, and atc co-operation when one is diverting to alternate...
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Everybody can be wise enough
to judge the fuel load after Landing,
or fill 'er up to maximum befere the flight.
So much about the fuel.
But we still miss some details about the subject.
Apparently the aircraft was in good shape,
and during some kind of a fistfight
Captain rejected the takeoff
and subsequently was fired by F/O ?!
Earl decided not to come back.
Whiskery is phheeewwwing around....
I am sorry but there is still lot of confusion.
to judge the fuel load after Landing,
or fill 'er up to maximum befere the flight.
So much about the fuel.
But we still miss some details about the subject.
Apparently the aircraft was in good shape,
and during some kind of a fistfight
Captain rejected the takeoff
and subsequently was fired by F/O ?!
Earl decided not to come back.
Whiskery is phheeewwwing around....
I am sorry but there is still lot of confusion.
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Earl,I have read all Your posts on this thread and Man You really talk sense,it would appear By some of Your posts that many people on the thread know who You are unfortunately I do not,I am also an ex-employee but once disgruntled but now just saddened by what is going on I think we have probably met before I was in maintenance in Madrid 1999-2001,I have heard of the new maintenance contract and I believe that Technicians were giving different gradings well it seems that all the "Fish" techs got upgrade and the "Non Fish" did not(surprise surprise)I am seriously surprised that AAI have any "Nons" still working for them by the obvious racial discrimination that has always been rife within them and I also remember the flight crew discrimination whereas the "Fish" flight crew would get paid time of whilst others would not,surprised they have not been taken to court yet but suspect it is only a matter of time.
matkat
matkat
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Thanks Matkat,
I am not interested in taking AAI to court, I am sure that one day soon someone will if things do not change. Worst even if government agencies get involved.
I just wanted to state that you are not allowed to operate in this manner.
But as Green Gaurd stated, what really caused this overun?
Every operater around is interested.
In no way to say, I told you so., But we all learn from others mistakes.
What procedures, notes, cautions or warnings can be added to prevent this from happening again.
This is why we have so many changes to the FOM.
This is also why this information is released and used by other airlines in training.
Perfectly good aircraft do not run off the runway by themselves.
Either a malfuntion happened or proper procedure was not followed.
Not pointing any fingers here, but why was their no slide rafts deployed at the RH upper deck door?
The only 2 doors shown open in the pics was the overhead escapehatch and the RH upper deck.
No escape reels were in view.
No slides seen on the RH upper deck.
No matter what caused this, I dont see how the crew got out following procedure.
Did they not think this was serious enough to evacuate?
Perhaps these pics are after the escape devices have been removed.
I am not interested in taking AAI to court, I am sure that one day soon someone will if things do not change. Worst even if government agencies get involved.
I just wanted to state that you are not allowed to operate in this manner.
But as Green Gaurd stated, what really caused this overun?
Every operater around is interested.
In no way to say, I told you so., But we all learn from others mistakes.
What procedures, notes, cautions or warnings can be added to prevent this from happening again.
This is why we have so many changes to the FOM.
This is also why this information is released and used by other airlines in training.
Perfectly good aircraft do not run off the runway by themselves.
Either a malfuntion happened or proper procedure was not followed.
Not pointing any fingers here, but why was their no slide rafts deployed at the RH upper deck door?
The only 2 doors shown open in the pics was the overhead escapehatch and the RH upper deck.
No escape reels were in view.
No slides seen on the RH upper deck.
No matter what caused this, I dont see how the crew got out following procedure.
Did they not think this was serious enough to evacuate?
Perhaps these pics are after the escape devices have been removed.
Last edited by Earl; 5th Dec 2004 at 17:54.
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Yes, its true
I fly for Air Atlanta. We are "highly discouraged" to write up anything that may ground the airplane. It is clear we may be invited to take unrequested time off if we do write up maintenance items.
Also, taking extra fuel over flight plan is highly discouraged.
But there are some really good people in the cockpit. A shame we have to put up with this crap.
Also, taking extra fuel over flight plan is highly discouraged.
But there are some really good people in the cockpit. A shame we have to put up with this crap.
I fly for Air Atlanta. We are "highly discouraged" to write up anything that may ground the airplane. It is clear we may be invited to take unrequested time off if we do write up maintenance items.
Also, taking extra fuel over flight plan is highly discouraged.
Also, taking extra fuel over flight plan is highly discouraged.
There is a company memo requiring the crews to add items to the logbook.
I have been with the company over four years and have never even been hinted at to getting time off for not taking a US plane.
We are also allowed to take fuel at our discression, but the Captain must be able to justify it. For the Malaysian contract with up to two tonnes extra not explanation is required.
All this is in the books.
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18-Wheeler,
I beg to differ. I can remember a Hajj 3 years ago, where there was a Capt sent home during the first half for not taking a plane.
Perhaps things are different now. I don't know. I've been gone for quite a while and really can't tell you how relieved I am to be out of AAI. My big priblem was there was an underlying current to take any shortcuts. Unless there has been a dramatic change in philosophy, I don't see how AAI could change. With the management staff and their "rock head" attitudes it would be pretty tough.
I agree with Classic Flyer 1000% about the calibre of the flight crews. However, too many times have I seen the flight crews going the "extra mile" or more like 10 miles only to see the company hang them out to dry. It's a one way street.
I beg to differ. I can remember a Hajj 3 years ago, where there was a Capt sent home during the first half for not taking a plane.
Perhaps things are different now. I don't know. I've been gone for quite a while and really can't tell you how relieved I am to be out of AAI. My big priblem was there was an underlying current to take any shortcuts. Unless there has been a dramatic change in philosophy, I don't see how AAI could change. With the management staff and their "rock head" attitudes it would be pretty tough.
I agree with Classic Flyer 1000% about the calibre of the flight crews. However, too many times have I seen the flight crews going the "extra mile" or more like 10 miles only to see the company hang them out to dry. It's a one way street.
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Not sure who is being pressured to not write things up. We filled out 4 pages worth of snags the other day. I think if don;t write it up your doing a disservice to all of us.
Snag, snag , snag..Write it all up.
Snag, snag , snag..Write it all up.
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Somthing like this may have already been posted about this incident but I have been talking to a ground engineer about the incident and he has been out there to asses the damage and reckons it was a blow out on both front tyres just as the aircraft was reaching V1.
The aircraft then lost steering and ended up running off the runway, all the undercarriage then collapsed and the pilots were able to escape unhurt.
The plane is a write off and they were if not already planning on cutting the plane into six piece's and then scrapping it ... After all the servicable goodes were salvaged !
This is what I have been told, anyone else herd any diffrent ?
The aircraft then lost steering and ended up running off the runway, all the undercarriage then collapsed and the pilots were able to escape unhurt.
The plane is a write off and they were if not already planning on cutting the plane into six piece's and then scrapping it ... After all the servicable goodes were salvaged !
This is what I have been told, anyone else herd any diffrent ?
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Word from people in the know at SHJ is that one of the four MLG trucks had disintegrated during the roll; subsequent reduced braking capability had precluded making a full stop on the runway. It was said that the very experienced commander was actually ex LH, and that he was flying a very familiar ex LH freighter, and that the jet had in fact been maintained by LH. 
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OK.. Enough of the speculation and rumour.. Even though I know you all thrive on the stuff..
1) Very close to v1 the R/H body gear had a massive failure of at least 2 tyres. The whole hydraulic system was wiped out by the resulting flying rubber and debris. All braking on that gear was ineffective. The extent of the damage was only fully understood after the accident.
2) The Captain is indeed a German, Very experienced, was a training Captain with another respected airline (Not Lfthansa).
3) The crew CHOSE to take the airplane off the runway to avoid collision with the runway lights which would have certainly killed them.
4) They chose not to deploy the escape slide because the proximity of the ILS hut would have either punctured the slide, or prevented it from reaching the ground, rendering it useless in either case.
5) All crew members licences have been returned to them by the UAE investigation comittee and are all back on duty.
6) The airplane was in perfect condition prior to the flight, including the tyres. There were certainly no deactivated brakes or other defects as implied by some people on this forum. (Probably they wouldn't know what a deactivated brake looks like, even if it rolled over them, anyhow) Maintenance is done by Lufthansa Technik.
How do I know all this??? Please remember, all the crew members walked away from this one unhurt...
1) Very close to v1 the R/H body gear had a massive failure of at least 2 tyres. The whole hydraulic system was wiped out by the resulting flying rubber and debris. All braking on that gear was ineffective. The extent of the damage was only fully understood after the accident.
2) The Captain is indeed a German, Very experienced, was a training Captain with another respected airline (Not Lfthansa).
3) The crew CHOSE to take the airplane off the runway to avoid collision with the runway lights which would have certainly killed them.
4) They chose not to deploy the escape slide because the proximity of the ILS hut would have either punctured the slide, or prevented it from reaching the ground, rendering it useless in either case.
5) All crew members licences have been returned to them by the UAE investigation comittee and are all back on duty.
6) The airplane was in perfect condition prior to the flight, including the tyres. There were certainly no deactivated brakes or other defects as implied by some people on this forum. (Probably they wouldn't know what a deactivated brake looks like, even if it rolled over them, anyhow) Maintenance is done by Lufthansa Technik.
How do I know all this??? Please remember, all the crew members walked away from this one unhurt...
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f.o.d on the runway is the most probable cause according to my AAIC friends. remember one time in BAH seeing a team of people picking up all kinds of muck down the runway on the morning walk about
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With suspected blown tires and a quick scan of the engine instruments it is probably better to continue the takeoff if you are high speed and close to V1.
In this case it sounds as they had lost 25% of the available brakes.
Making the V1 speed useless.
Judgement call really.
One day you are the windshield, then the next you are the bug.
In this case it sounds as they had lost 25% of the available brakes.
Making the V1 speed useless.
Judgement call really.
One day you are the windshield, then the next you are the bug.
Last edited by Earl; 21st Dec 2004 at 02:14.
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Accident report is out.
http://www.rnf.is/media/skyrslur-200...ta_-_Final.pdf
It appears that a tire(wheel failure) blew at low speed on the takeoff roll. There was a couple of thump sound then flapping like noises heard on the FD 7 seconds before V1. The captain thought this to be because of a rough runway(is that runway rough?). The aircraft was very heavily loaded.
ATC noticed smoke and transmitted this to the flight :“and Lufthansa there was a bang and you’ve got smoke coming on the right hand side”. This transmission was at the same time as the V1 call. The captain thought he heard the word fire from ATC and with visions of the Concorde crash flashing through his mind, he rejected the takeoff which was initiated 3 knots above V1.
A wheel rim had failed. Apparently wheels can be cooled with a water mist but the maintenance has been pouring water on hot wheels at some point which is a no-no. Also, a service bulletin had recommended retiring that particular wheel 4 years earlier.
http://www.rnf.is/media/skyrslur-200...ta_-_Final.pdf
It appears that a tire(wheel failure) blew at low speed on the takeoff roll. There was a couple of thump sound then flapping like noises heard on the FD 7 seconds before V1. The captain thought this to be because of a rough runway(is that runway rough?). The aircraft was very heavily loaded.
ATC noticed smoke and transmitted this to the flight :“and Lufthansa there was a bang and you’ve got smoke coming on the right hand side”. This transmission was at the same time as the V1 call. The captain thought he heard the word fire from ATC and with visions of the Concorde crash flashing through his mind, he rejected the takeoff which was initiated 3 knots above V1.
A wheel rim had failed. Apparently wheels can be cooled with a water mist but the maintenance has been pouring water on hot wheels at some point which is a no-no. Also, a service bulletin had recommended retiring that particular wheel 4 years earlier.