MK Airlines B747 crash at Halifax
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Firstly, my deepest sympathy to the crews family.
But regarding the CVR/FDR
I thought these things were supposed to be virtually indestructible and could survive a crash like this and the ensuing fire for at least 45 mins or am I living on a different planet?
I know nothing about CVR/FDR but am just going off what I’ve read but was led to believe these things are pretty tough cookies.
Capk
But regarding the CVR/FDR
I thought these things were supposed to be virtually indestructible and could survive a crash like this and the ensuing fire for at least 45 mins or am I living on a different planet?
I know nothing about CVR/FDR but am just going off what I’ve read but was led to believe these things are pretty tough cookies.
Capk
Captainkilner,
Anything that is vunerable to heat damage can only be protected from fire for so long. This is a problem in data storage safes that are "fireproof" and I guess this would apply to black boxes as well. See, the only defense from being in a fire is insulation, and no insulation is perfect. You can have a coolant that is used (some safes have a moist material in the layers that evaporates to move the heat away). But that means mass and mass is an important consideration.
Anything that is vunerable to heat damage can only be protected from fire for so long. This is a problem in data storage safes that are "fireproof" and I guess this would apply to black boxes as well. See, the only defense from being in a fire is insulation, and no insulation is perfect. You can have a coolant that is used (some safes have a moist material in the layers that evaporates to move the heat away). But that means mass and mass is an important consideration.
Eight Gun Fighter
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Making Sure the Recorders Survive
Things have come a long way since 1958 when it was the state-of-the-art in crash-survivability that had the major influence on the level of the minimum requirements for crash-survivability. Today the minimum standards are set according to the conditions that a flight recorder is likely to meet in a crash.
These days to become certified for use flight recorders must pass a collection of extremely arduous tests. These include:
Fire.
This is two-fold, the flight recorder casings must protect the recording medium from 1100degC (the temperature at which aviation fuel burns) for thirty minutes (simulating the initial fuel fire after a crash). It must then be able to protect the recording medium from a temperature of 260degC for ten hours (this simulates a long baggage-fuelled fire).
Common heat-insulation materials used include polymers, wax and gelled which - all offer good protection from high temperatures.
Water protection and Deep Sea Water Pressure Resistance.
The casing must protect the recording medium for thirty days underwater at a pressure equivalent to being submerged at 20,000ft below the ocean surface.
Static Crush Test.
The recorder must withstand a 5,000-pound pressure applied against all six axis points.
Penetration Resistance.
The recorder must withstand a 500lb force being dropped on it from 10 feet up, the point of contact being a one-quarter inch diameter hardened steel spike.
Impact Test .
In this test the recorder is fired from an air cannon into an aluminium wall. This simulates the required, 3400g deceleration in 6.5 milliseconds (which is equivalent to going from 350 mph to zero in 16 inches).
Fluid Immersion Test .
To check that the recorder will not be eroded by any of the fluids that are most commonly carried by planes, the recorder must survive emersion for 48 hours in each of the following:
hydraulic fluid
lubricating oil
aviation fuel
fire extinguishing agents
and toilet flushing fluid .
Things have come a long way since 1958 when it was the state-of-the-art in crash-survivability that had the major influence on the level of the minimum requirements for crash-survivability. Today the minimum standards are set according to the conditions that a flight recorder is likely to meet in a crash.
These days to become certified for use flight recorders must pass a collection of extremely arduous tests. These include:
Fire.
This is two-fold, the flight recorder casings must protect the recording medium from 1100degC (the temperature at which aviation fuel burns) for thirty minutes (simulating the initial fuel fire after a crash). It must then be able to protect the recording medium from a temperature of 260degC for ten hours (this simulates a long baggage-fuelled fire).
Common heat-insulation materials used include polymers, wax and gelled which - all offer good protection from high temperatures.
Water protection and Deep Sea Water Pressure Resistance.
The casing must protect the recording medium for thirty days underwater at a pressure equivalent to being submerged at 20,000ft below the ocean surface.
Static Crush Test.
The recorder must withstand a 5,000-pound pressure applied against all six axis points.
Penetration Resistance.
The recorder must withstand a 500lb force being dropped on it from 10 feet up, the point of contact being a one-quarter inch diameter hardened steel spike.
Impact Test .
In this test the recorder is fired from an air cannon into an aluminium wall. This simulates the required, 3400g deceleration in 6.5 milliseconds (which is equivalent to going from 350 mph to zero in 16 inches).
Fluid Immersion Test .
To check that the recorder will not be eroded by any of the fluids that are most commonly carried by planes, the recorder must survive emersion for 48 hours in each of the following:
hydraulic fluid
lubricating oil
aviation fuel
fire extinguishing agents
and toilet flushing fluid .
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Thanks Rolling Thunder for the info
With all of that rigorous testing listed should the CVR/FDR have survived this crash then? When you compare it to what it should be able to survive during testing?
Or are these relatively new figures?
How old would the CVR/FDR have been in this 20-year-old 742?
If the CVR/FDR are quite old would they have being able to with stand as much damage as a modern CVR/FDR?
Capk
With all of that rigorous testing listed should the CVR/FDR have survived this crash then? When you compare it to what it should be able to survive during testing?
Or are these relatively new figures?
How old would the CVR/FDR have been in this 20-year-old 742?
If the CVR/FDR are quite old would they have being able to with stand as much damage as a modern CVR/FDR?
Capk
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Interesting that the report in the Halifax Herald states that "From the helicopter there were no gouges visible in the pavement, but two tire marks in the brown grass led to a line of orange posts, part of the airport's navigational system."
It further says that "...the tail of the jet bounced twice off the tarmac near the end of the runway and separated from the plane when it hit a mound of earth 300 metres beyond the end of the runway."
The visible tire marks suggest that the plane stayed on the ground for that distance of 300m past the runway threshold.
It further says that "...the tail of the jet bounced twice off the tarmac near the end of the runway and separated from the plane when it hit a mound of earth 300 metres beyond the end of the runway."
The visible tire marks suggest that the plane stayed on the ground for that distance of 300m past the runway threshold.
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This will probably turn out to be a simple but awful error. Personally I suspect insufficient runway for the weight and this can obviously happen in several ways. However let’s leave that to the investigation.
At this point one could blame the crew and perhaps the controller then be done with the business. However thankfully we tend to look further these days and examine the deeper issues. With MK this is going to be some can of worms.
Does the company have a safety culture? Any discussion with the crews will show this to be a joke. They fly long and hard and the company only does what is needed to cosmetically satisfy whoever. You get paid for what you fly. No fly – no pay. Complain too much and someone else gets the trips. This can be very persuading when living as a white in Mugabe’s Zimbabwe and trying to keep up a family, education etc. when clearly the state takes pleasure in persecuting you. MK took advantage of all this. Cheap crews with a noose around their necks.
Does the company have a safety department? Sure they called in a few boys from Cathay to fix up the procedures. Procedures count for nothing if the safety culture is not there. It has to start from the top. It has to be sincere. The accident rate shows just how successful this half hearted attempt has been. A large part of the greatly proceduralised fleet is now a charred wreck. However the same hasn’t happened to Cathay. I wonder why. MK just didn’t get it. The only true belief was in the bottom line.
Is there an incident reporting method? Analysis of incident data? I doubt it. The real stories in MKs years of operation are out there. Ask around. They defy belief in some cases. The real tribute to the flying skills of their crews is that there were not more accidents. If someone had kept track of a penalty free incident reporting system, the flags would have been very large and very red.
Was there a Confidential Human Factors system? Who has time for that when there is money to be made? Flying tired, many days away from home, where the wife and kids could be raped, or murdered, where nothing much works and there is often no where else to go, and no other job at all to be had, is a severe strain. “Everyone else in the company handles it so stop whining” Putting a brave face on it however does not mitigate the underlying issues.
The only good thing about this unfortunate affair is that it happened in a country whose authorities can be taken seriously. I wish the first 2 accidents had, then perhaps 8 men would still be alive today. I also hope this flags the semi regulated carriers from Africa that fly over our heads every night. Let them fly in their own corrupt regimes but not over densely populated areas in the civilised world whose authorities have little idea of what is really going on inside the aircraft.
This is so typical of managements that get caught up in the bottom line and blinker themselves to the realities of aviation. So typical of inexperienced companies who arrogantly think that years of aviation experience in these matters is just the stuff of text books and awkward legislators.
Well now we have the bottom line: 7 good men killed, 1 beautiful aircraft written off, 1 ugly investigation and hopefully an expensive law suit to provide for the women and children who now have to go it alone in Zimbabwe.
At this point one could blame the crew and perhaps the controller then be done with the business. However thankfully we tend to look further these days and examine the deeper issues. With MK this is going to be some can of worms.
Does the company have a safety culture? Any discussion with the crews will show this to be a joke. They fly long and hard and the company only does what is needed to cosmetically satisfy whoever. You get paid for what you fly. No fly – no pay. Complain too much and someone else gets the trips. This can be very persuading when living as a white in Mugabe’s Zimbabwe and trying to keep up a family, education etc. when clearly the state takes pleasure in persecuting you. MK took advantage of all this. Cheap crews with a noose around their necks.
Does the company have a safety department? Sure they called in a few boys from Cathay to fix up the procedures. Procedures count for nothing if the safety culture is not there. It has to start from the top. It has to be sincere. The accident rate shows just how successful this half hearted attempt has been. A large part of the greatly proceduralised fleet is now a charred wreck. However the same hasn’t happened to Cathay. I wonder why. MK just didn’t get it. The only true belief was in the bottom line.
Is there an incident reporting method? Analysis of incident data? I doubt it. The real stories in MKs years of operation are out there. Ask around. They defy belief in some cases. The real tribute to the flying skills of their crews is that there were not more accidents. If someone had kept track of a penalty free incident reporting system, the flags would have been very large and very red.
Was there a Confidential Human Factors system? Who has time for that when there is money to be made? Flying tired, many days away from home, where the wife and kids could be raped, or murdered, where nothing much works and there is often no where else to go, and no other job at all to be had, is a severe strain. “Everyone else in the company handles it so stop whining” Putting a brave face on it however does not mitigate the underlying issues.
The only good thing about this unfortunate affair is that it happened in a country whose authorities can be taken seriously. I wish the first 2 accidents had, then perhaps 8 men would still be alive today. I also hope this flags the semi regulated carriers from Africa that fly over our heads every night. Let them fly in their own corrupt regimes but not over densely populated areas in the civilised world whose authorities have little idea of what is really going on inside the aircraft.
This is so typical of managements that get caught up in the bottom line and blinker themselves to the realities of aviation. So typical of inexperienced companies who arrogantly think that years of aviation experience in these matters is just the stuff of text books and awkward legislators.
Well now we have the bottom line: 7 good men killed, 1 beautiful aircraft written off, 1 ugly investigation and hopefully an expensive law suit to provide for the women and children who now have to go it alone in Zimbabwe.
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I think it is going to come down to they were at Flaps 10 when they based TO performance on Flaps 20. If you look at all the information we have it points a large finger towards that line of thinking. 
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747FOCAL.
Yes perhaps I should have said weight or config. However without a performance discussion it all really comes down to the same thing in the end. (Give or take a tail scrape!)
Thanks
Yes perhaps I should have said weight or config. However without a performance discussion it all really comes down to the same thing in the end. (Give or take a tail scrape!)
Thanks
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Sad to say we have all been pushed to the point to where we all could make mistakes.
Not saying thats what happened here
No matter what our qaulifications are.
I hope we can learn from others mistakes.
How many changes has the FOM and the Mel been changed due to others mistakes? Since the begining.
We all learn from this.
My prayers for the families and crew.
Not saying thats what happened here
No matter what our qaulifications are.
I hope we can learn from others mistakes.
How many changes has the FOM and the Mel been changed due to others mistakes? Since the begining.
We all learn from this.
My prayers for the families and crew.
Last edited by Earl; 20th Oct 2004 at 19:05.
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McGintry, I tend to interpret that photo the same way regarding tire marks. The tire impressions appear to get noticably deeper going up the sloped side of the berm. That's a heck of a way to try and get a 747 airborne. The HMS Ark Royal ski jump the berm is not.
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disconnected
Thanks for the eye-opener.
It's sad to see what some people in the aviation industry (or just as well people in general) still have to put up with in the 21st century
It's sad to see what some people in the aviation industry (or just as well people in general) still have to put up with in the 21st century
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The comments regarding the missing wing to fuse fillet fairings on the aircraft photo'd in Findel, and the so called "crew" that were walking up the stairs and were seen closing the door were in fact ground crew.The aircraft was being towed to a more suitable place of work (outside the CargoLux hangar).Please before making inacurate posting's, be sure to have a clear understanding of the facts.All you achieve to do is muddy the waters of truth to gain support for a theory that is wildly inacurate and leads opinion down an exagerated path.If you had posted that you had seen this , and that the aircraft had been towed out to the taxi way, then fine.But you say that you saw it leave.You are a liar - simply put.
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Disconnected.
You speak wise words.Words are one thing.Actions are another.MK Flt Ops,and management IF,and proved true,that the crews were/are pushed,against agreed,safe rostered agreements,in order to maintain a lifestyle choice,should be sleeping uneasily,right now.
What sad news for all involved on the a/c.QB
You speak wise words.Words are one thing.Actions are another.MK Flt Ops,and management IF,and proved true,that the crews were/are pushed,against agreed,safe rostered agreements,in order to maintain a lifestyle choice,should be sleeping uneasily,right now.
What sad news for all involved on the a/c.QB
Re the photos posted ealier today - from the tracks left on the berm by the centre gear it would seem unlikely that, even had the berm not been there, the aircraft would have cleared the forest a few hundred metres ahead.
Mistrust in Management
Bokomoko
That photo is quite staggering!
I was an F/E for many years on the 747-100/200/300/SP and never in those years did I see the end of the runway that closely. It did seem to get a bit 'tight' leaving NBO northbound at times on a 747-100, and 'tight' also on a 747-200 leaving JNB northbound. However I don't believe it was ever as 'tight' as shown in that photo.
I'll wait for the results of the investigation before I make any comment whatsoever on this latest tragic accident.
Sincere condolances to the families of those involved.
Regards
Exeng
I was an F/E for many years on the 747-100/200/300/SP and never in those years did I see the end of the runway that closely. It did seem to get a bit 'tight' leaving NBO northbound at times on a 747-100, and 'tight' also on a 747-200 leaving JNB northbound. However I don't believe it was ever as 'tight' as shown in that photo.
I'll wait for the results of the investigation before I make any comment whatsoever on this latest tragic accident.
Sincere condolances to the families of those involved.
Regards
Exeng
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cw6,
That plane taxied out and took off.
I, myself did not realize that picture was of the downed plane from Halifax. Not until the next poster pointed it out.
Do not ever call me a liar again.
That plane taxied out and took off.
I, myself did not realize that picture was of the downed plane from Halifax. Not until the next poster pointed it out.
Do not ever call me a liar again.
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Of all the posts that I have read regarding this tragic accident the one that stands out more than any is the one by ‘disconnected’ because, I believe, it brings out some of the underlying issues that need to be addressed.
I know quite a few of the MK personnel and from my discussions with them I can only second all that ‘disconnected’ has said. The problem comes from the top. Any airline can bring in an amount of experts to solve a problem (Ex CX crews in this case), but unless the airline is prepared to change its culture, and take on board those recommendations, the exercise becomes a waste of the CX crew’s time and effort.
The culture within MK can be exemplified by the reported comment from their Operations Manager, John Power, who, when asked about its safety record said that it was “excellent”. This known as Denial, and probably permeates throughout MK. I understand that ‘sissies’ are not welcome in MK – so they all battle on not wanting to be labeled as sissies, flying beyond the bounds of normal Flight and Duty time limitations so as to earn that extra ‘foreign’ dollar that is so valuable in Zimbabwe.
Don’t get me wrong, the line crews, are a great bunch of guys who, in my opinion, are being exploited by an unscrupulous management.
I know quite a few of the MK personnel and from my discussions with them I can only second all that ‘disconnected’ has said. The problem comes from the top. Any airline can bring in an amount of experts to solve a problem (Ex CX crews in this case), but unless the airline is prepared to change its culture, and take on board those recommendations, the exercise becomes a waste of the CX crew’s time and effort.
The culture within MK can be exemplified by the reported comment from their Operations Manager, John Power, who, when asked about its safety record said that it was “excellent”. This known as Denial, and probably permeates throughout MK. I understand that ‘sissies’ are not welcome in MK – so they all battle on not wanting to be labeled as sissies, flying beyond the bounds of normal Flight and Duty time limitations so as to earn that extra ‘foreign’ dollar that is so valuable in Zimbabwe.
Don’t get me wrong, the line crews, are a great bunch of guys who, in my opinion, are being exploited by an unscrupulous management.
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Agree with what has been said in previous posts as regards to the safety culture or lack of it.
It goes a little further than the man at the top. I blame the UK authorities for allowing them to operate (remember they are a UK based carrier) from the UK on a flag of convenience registration.
This goes back many years to the Trade winds days and beyond. The foreign registered carries can and do, easy under cut any UK registered operator.
Until the Uk registered operators get together and pressure the authorities, to stop this double standards system, it will continue. The operator in question are not the only ones. There is at least one other.
It goes a little further than the man at the top. I blame the UK authorities for allowing them to operate (remember they are a UK based carrier) from the UK on a flag of convenience registration.
This goes back many years to the Trade winds days and beyond. The foreign registered carries can and do, easy under cut any UK registered operator.
Until the Uk registered operators get together and pressure the authorities, to stop this double standards system, it will continue. The operator in question are not the only ones. There is at least one other.