MK Airlines B747 crash at Halifax
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The 747 too slow on takeoff run
From the news update quoting investigators:
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNew...44/?hub=Canada
The Boeing 747-200 was moving up the runway at 240 kilometres an hour before the crash -- at least 55 kilometres slower than it should have been.
Transportation Safety Board of Canada investigator Bill Fowler says the plane needed more thrust to get up to the speed required, given the runway it had available.
Fowler has said the jet used all but the first 60 metres of its runway during takeoff. But he has also said that under ideal circumstances, the shortened run would have given the aircraft more than enough room to take off.
The plane was loaded with 53,000 kilograms of seafood, along with lawn tractors and computer gear. A 747 has a payload capacity of about 60,000 kilograms.
Fowler says the fish cargo was not weighed at the airport before it was loaded on the plane in Halifax.
The TSB issued an advisory Friday on the proper weighing of cargos -- suggesting investigators believe the plane may have been overloaded.
However, Fowler refused to speculate that the jet was overloaded, saying all the information is not yet available.
The plane's damaged flight data recorder was recovered last week. Fowler has said it indicated the 747's four engines were functionally normally.
Transportation Safety Board of Canada investigator Bill Fowler says the plane needed more thrust to get up to the speed required, given the runway it had available.
Fowler has said the jet used all but the first 60 metres of its runway during takeoff. But he has also said that under ideal circumstances, the shortened run would have given the aircraft more than enough room to take off.
The plane was loaded with 53,000 kilograms of seafood, along with lawn tractors and computer gear. A 747 has a payload capacity of about 60,000 kilograms.
Fowler says the fish cargo was not weighed at the airport before it was loaded on the plane in Halifax.
The TSB issued an advisory Friday on the proper weighing of cargos -- suggesting investigators believe the plane may have been overloaded.
However, Fowler refused to speculate that the jet was overloaded, saying all the information is not yet available.
The plane's damaged flight data recorder was recovered last week. Fowler has said it indicated the 747's four engines were functionally normally.
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Cw6 states:
“MK has an amazingly talented, experienced, qualified and enthusiastic team running it, it is run with pride and passion which is from the top, if you were half as successful as the owner of that airline you wouldn't be writting sh1t on here and I would be addressing you as Captain!!”
What an amazing statement – I would suspect that cw6 is closely associated with MK and is also afflicted with pure Denial.
The attributes that cw6 alludes to could be applied to any number of airlines, lets try a few: Cathay, Qantas, Virgin Atlantic, VirginBlue, Ryanair, Dragonair Air Zimbabwe. Difference is that they have not written off 25% of their fleet. As disconnected said “MK just don’t get it”
Pray tell cw6, by what standard do you judge the owner of MK to be “successful”? He presides over an airline that has an appalling safety record, hardly a measure of success, nor a reason to be proud!
“MK has an amazingly talented, experienced, qualified and enthusiastic team running it, it is run with pride and passion which is from the top, if you were half as successful as the owner of that airline you wouldn't be writting sh1t on here and I would be addressing you as Captain!!”
What an amazing statement – I would suspect that cw6 is closely associated with MK and is also afflicted with pure Denial.
The attributes that cw6 alludes to could be applied to any number of airlines, lets try a few: Cathay, Qantas, Virgin Atlantic, VirginBlue, Ryanair, Dragonair Air Zimbabwe. Difference is that they have not written off 25% of their fleet. As disconnected said “MK just don’t get it”
Pray tell cw6, by what standard do you judge the owner of MK to be “successful”? He presides over an airline that has an appalling safety record, hardly a measure of success, nor a reason to be proud!
km/h to knots
Working from the speeds in the cited article:
Once, I could do the calculations to work out the fraction over MTOW that would produce that reduced speed. However I suspect that the speed given out by TSB is the maximum achieved just before collision with the berm instead of the normal rotation point which could indicate that MTOW was exceeded by a substantial fraction.
A night takeoff deprives you of early visual clues that acceleration is not quite what's needed -- perhaps until you're getting too close and personal with the end of the runway.
There has been discussion before that it may be useful to work out distance or time to V1 and abort if V1 is not achieved by that point or time.
- 240 kmh = 130 kt
- 055 kmh = 030 kt
- i.e desired speed = 160 kt
The plane's damaged flight data recorder was recovered last week. Fowler has said it indicated the 747's four engines were functionally normally.
A night takeoff deprives you of early visual clues that acceleration is not quite what's needed -- perhaps until you're getting too close and personal with the end of the runway.
There has been discussion before that it may be useful to work out distance or time to V1 and abort if V1 is not achieved by that point or time.
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747FOCAL,
Despite a number of requests for you to tell the forum when the picture of the missing fairing was taken, you have not done so, also I see you have removed the link to the photo. Is there something you are not telling us.
If the picture was taken a while back, as I am sure it was, what was the point in putting on this thread?
Lets try and stick to relevant information.
Despite a number of requests for you to tell the forum when the picture of the missing fairing was taken, you have not done so, also I see you have removed the link to the photo. Is there something you are not telling us.
If the picture was taken a while back, as I am sure it was, what was the point in putting on this thread?
Lets try and stick to relevant information.
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Fuel 100
How many of those airlines fly to Abuja, Kano, Malabo, Sao Tome, Baku, Almaty, Kabul, Kandahar... etc to name but a few... ask Hydro about Lagos,. Ask BA and Cathay to fly to these dest with a 742....I think Not! Yes they have hull loses. Sometimes it is not up to you, some other force may contribute to the swiss cheese effect.
Yet they are still supported by the clients and agents and crew....why? Because nobody else can or wants to try to do it They do it, within the a/c limits and they do it well. Would you do it? Why not? Post accident they were checked in depth by UK officials, and found fully compliant, even commended. Do you think after all these years they would be flying in and out of Europe, USA, MES,EEU, etc if there was a problem?
Bash all you want, when your time comes, i will not slate you or your company but will wait for the official findings. I hope that never happens to any of you. Safe flying.
How many of those airlines fly to Abuja, Kano, Malabo, Sao Tome, Baku, Almaty, Kabul, Kandahar... etc to name but a few... ask Hydro about Lagos,. Ask BA and Cathay to fly to these dest with a 742....I think Not! Yes they have hull loses. Sometimes it is not up to you, some other force may contribute to the swiss cheese effect.
Yet they are still supported by the clients and agents and crew....why? Because nobody else can or wants to try to do it They do it, within the a/c limits and they do it well. Would you do it? Why not? Post accident they were checked in depth by UK officials, and found fully compliant, even commended. Do you think after all these years they would be flying in and out of Europe, USA, MES,EEU, etc if there was a problem?
Bash all you want, when your time comes, i will not slate you or your company but will wait for the official findings. I hope that never happens to any of you. Safe flying.
The Reverend
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SNAM, the last B747-200F that I operated with CF6-50E2 engines, had maximum load capacity of 101 Tonnes which gave it a range of 8150KM. The -400 has an even higher max load capacity.
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Investigators have determined that the shipping company didn't weigh the fully loaded pallets of seafood, providing the airline instead with an estimate based on the average weight of each box of seafood. That total wouldn't have included the weight of the wooden pallets carrying the seafood or other materials used in packing.
Reports say the max payload for the -200 is 60,000 kg - can you guys confirm this?
They may have been overweight as they had tractors and other stuff, as well as a reported 53,000 kg of seafood (which is now a low figure). They don't say how much it actually weighed but it must be a significant amount - especially since the pallets and packing materials weren't counted.
The Reverend
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74tweaker, read the post above. The 742F max payload is far in excess of 60.000 kgs. Not only thet but MK carry professional load masters who are experts at producing accurate load sheets. May he with the other six, rest in peace.
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<<<The TSB issued an advisory Friday on the proper weighing of cargos -- suggesting investigators believe the plane may have been overloaded.>>>
Weight-Theft of Air Cargo
Weight-theft of air cargo is probably difficult to prove because the manifests and loadsheets are always going to appear pukka.
Unfortunately, if the air-crew are the last to know (as in ignorant of it), then they end up taking off overweight. Figures of 20% to
30% of cargo under-statement are mentioned in the article above. They'd probably be significant for a marginal operation that's designedly runway length limited (like out of Halifax carrying a heavy load and some tankered fuel).
Allegedly there were a number of witnesses who heard the aircraft go to max power about midway through their final take-off. That may have been the point of dawning realization - where they became "the last to know".
Weight-Theft of Air Cargo
Weight-theft of air cargo is probably difficult to prove because the manifests and loadsheets are always going to appear pukka.
Unfortunately, if the air-crew are the last to know (as in ignorant of it), then they end up taking off overweight. Figures of 20% to
30% of cargo under-statement are mentioned in the article above. They'd probably be significant for a marginal operation that's designedly runway length limited (like out of Halifax carrying a heavy load and some tankered fuel).
Allegedly there were a number of witnesses who heard the aircraft go to max power about midway through their final take-off. That may have been the point of dawning realization - where they became "the last to know".
Reports say the max payload for the -200 is 60,000 kg - can you guys confirm this?
Depends on the engines and freight loading system, as they are the major factors for Zero Fuel Weight.
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Could it be, that based on the RW- and Climblimits, that the max Load was restricted to 60 to?
And no, it is not ment as a joke, if the load was seafood, maybe it was forgotten to take the weight of the ice, if there was any carried along with the seafood? 
Believe me, that has happened before....
And no, it is not ment as a joke, if the load was seafood, maybe it was forgotten to take the weight of the ice, if there was any carried along with the seafood? Believe me, that has happened before....
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The point raised about perceiving rate of acceleration at night is a valid one, especially I suppose when the flight deck is as high it is on a 747.
Something to consider:
The captain of a Hercules decided to abort at Stansted because he felt that the aircraft's acceleration was somewhat slower than normal. After clearing the runway, tower advised him that flames could be seen in the main gear area. The crew evacuated and the fire was subsequently extinguished. I doubt if the aircraft was 'pulling' left or right unnoticed during taxy out, or take-off, but a brake only has to be binding slightly to build up heat. The abort was conducted at a fairly low airspeed (80kts I think) and probably very little brakes were required. This incident occured at night and with a relatively light load. If he had continued and the landing gear been retracted...
So, my question is, if a 747 had a brake binding in one of the centre bogies, would this have been noticeable on taxy out or take-off, apart from maybe more thrust being required depending on the amount and point at which it started binding - maybe at brake release for the take-off roll? Does this model 747 have brake temp. indicators, and if so does the MEL specify a requirement for them to be serviceable for all departures? The Herc has brake temperature indicators - they are fitted to the back of the FE or pilot's hand. Always a good idea to check to see if a single wheel is cooler or hotter than the other three after landing - it can tell you a lot about the state of the brakes.
Edited for clarity (or not).
Something to consider:
The captain of a Hercules decided to abort at Stansted because he felt that the aircraft's acceleration was somewhat slower than normal. After clearing the runway, tower advised him that flames could be seen in the main gear area. The crew evacuated and the fire was subsequently extinguished. I doubt if the aircraft was 'pulling' left or right unnoticed during taxy out, or take-off, but a brake only has to be binding slightly to build up heat. The abort was conducted at a fairly low airspeed (80kts I think) and probably very little brakes were required. This incident occured at night and with a relatively light load. If he had continued and the landing gear been retracted...
So, my question is, if a 747 had a brake binding in one of the centre bogies, would this have been noticeable on taxy out or take-off, apart from maybe more thrust being required depending on the amount and point at which it started binding - maybe at brake release for the take-off roll? Does this model 747 have brake temp. indicators, and if so does the MEL specify a requirement for them to be serviceable for all departures? The Herc has brake temperature indicators - they are fitted to the back of the FE or pilot's hand. Always a good idea to check to see if a single wheel is cooler or hotter than the other three after landing - it can tell you a lot about the state of the brakes.
Edited for clarity (or not).
Last edited by fourpaddles; 23rd Oct 2004 at 14:10.
The Reverend
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Does this model 747 have brake temp. indicators, and if so does the MEL specify a requirement for them to be serviceable for all departures?
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Would have never thought.
Just a quick comment on diconnected' post.I'm a long haul trucker and when I read in that post about this airline's operation "fly get paid don't fly don't get paid" and that they just do what ever maintenance is required (barely) and nothing more.This sounds to me like some trucking companies I've come across.When it comes to trailers and tractors for that matter people would be shocked at what thier running down the road next to,some of these units would just barely pass an inspection and a few probably would'nt even do that.I can't believe that some aircraft frieght companies would be the same way when it comes to thier jets.SCARY!
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The media are now reporting the following quote” We are trying to establish why the takeoff was attempted at a reduced power setting” Fowler says
Last edited by Tan; 23rd Oct 2004 at 17:52.
Still behind the curtain
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My company is a storage and plug-in facility for fully loaded refrigerated containers with meat and fish in Riga, Latvia. These containers come in by ship from the U.S., UK, and many other parts of the world. We hold them, keep them cold, and then ship them onward by truck to Russia.
The maximum loaded weight of a 40' container is 32,000 kg, and the accompanying bills of lading filled out by the sender or his agent rarely state that the cargo is over 25,000 kg. Yet our electronic scale with a print-out half the time shows that the cargo weighs up to 10,000 kg past the 32,000 kg maximum.
The whole truck, once it reaches the Russian border, is weighed. Fines of $250 per ton overweight are not unusual. Overweight trucks will eat up the road they drive on, but the weight is really not that critical to safety.
However, if a sender, or his agent falsifies a bill of lading or a waybill on a weight-sensitive airplane, then I would consider it criminal.
I'm sure that in airline freight operations not every piece of cargo is put on a scale and weighed.
If the customer declares that a crated lawn tractor weighs 300 kg and a wooden crate of frozen fish 150 kg, the airline will probably take their word for it if it is so stated in the bill of lading.
The bill of lading is actually an accompanying document of "sale" which is needed for the end customer to retreive his merchandise. The wooden crate or the steel tub is probably not included in the bill of lading, because in customs, the buyer only pays duty for the product -- and not the packing.
That's how things can go wrong. There are many other tricks in international shipping which I won't go into now, since you're probably already bored.
The maximum loaded weight of a 40' container is 32,000 kg, and the accompanying bills of lading filled out by the sender or his agent rarely state that the cargo is over 25,000 kg. Yet our electronic scale with a print-out half the time shows that the cargo weighs up to 10,000 kg past the 32,000 kg maximum.
The whole truck, once it reaches the Russian border, is weighed. Fines of $250 per ton overweight are not unusual. Overweight trucks will eat up the road they drive on, but the weight is really not that critical to safety.
However, if a sender, or his agent falsifies a bill of lading or a waybill on a weight-sensitive airplane, then I would consider it criminal.
I'm sure that in airline freight operations not every piece of cargo is put on a scale and weighed.
If the customer declares that a crated lawn tractor weighs 300 kg and a wooden crate of frozen fish 150 kg, the airline will probably take their word for it if it is so stated in the bill of lading.
The bill of lading is actually an accompanying document of "sale" which is needed for the end customer to retreive his merchandise. The wooden crate or the steel tub is probably not included in the bill of lading, because in customs, the buyer only pays duty for the product -- and not the packing.
That's how things can go wrong. There are many other tricks in international shipping which I won't go into now, since you're probably already bored.
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However, if a sender, or his agent falsifies a bill of lading or a waybill on a weight-sensitive airplane, then I would consider it criminal.
Have a look:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...hreadid=142190
Here are 2 quotes from that discussion:
...found out that in the old fokker27 days the check in staff used to rush to the jkia waving/ observation deck to see whether the plane actually takes off with all the illegal excess baggage and cargo they received bribes for!
Just the other day we saw a 15 Ton overload out of VHHH.