MK Airlines B747 crash at Halifax
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enginefailure
No one knows what happened or even what even started the chain of events. My mind is awash in the speculation on this thread from everything to transporting seawater to thinking berms are akin to mountains at the end of the runway none of which is true.
One of the black boxes has been recovered and if the heat of the accident hasn’t corrupted the data the accident investigators will have a better idea of what really happened. Hopefully the aircrafts voice recorder will be recovered very soon in good condition and at that time I would expect the investigators to release their initial findings.
If you really want to speculate read the second hand eyewitness report posted by King Air Guy a few pages back as that is the most creditable post so far and even that is only speculation.
Cheers..
No one knows what happened or even what even started the chain of events. My mind is awash in the speculation on this thread from everything to transporting seawater to thinking berms are akin to mountains at the end of the runway none of which is true.
One of the black boxes has been recovered and if the heat of the accident hasn’t corrupted the data the accident investigators will have a better idea of what really happened. Hopefully the aircrafts voice recorder will be recovered very soon in good condition and at that time I would expect the investigators to release their initial findings.
If you really want to speculate read the second hand eyewitness report posted by King Air Guy a few pages back as that is the most creditable post so far and even that is only speculation.
Cheers..
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speculation is one thing - mathematics another.
so maybe someone can calculate with variable weights
whether 2000 meters were enough for a save takeoff
when no unexpected problems with the plane occurred.
Plane:
Boeing 747-200
Runways:
06/24 8800' x 200' asphalt / concrete <=== used
15/33 7700' x 200' asphalt
Conditions:
CYHZ 140700Z 26006KT 15SM OVC018 10/09 A2967 RMK SC8 SLP051
CYHZ 140800Z 25005KT 15SM OVC016 10/09 A2968 RMK SC8 SLP054
CYHZ 140900Z 26005KT 15SM OVC016 10/09 A2970 RMK SC8 SLP061
Weight:
ca. 360.000 kg - 369.000 kg
so maybe someone can calculate with variable weights
whether 2000 meters were enough for a save takeoff
when no unexpected problems with the plane occurred.
Plane:
Boeing 747-200
Runways:
06/24 8800' x 200' asphalt / concrete <=== used
15/33 7700' x 200' asphalt
Conditions:
CYHZ 140700Z 26006KT 15SM OVC018 10/09 A2967 RMK SC8 SLP051
CYHZ 140800Z 25005KT 15SM OVC016 10/09 A2968 RMK SC8 SLP054
CYHZ 140900Z 26005KT 15SM OVC016 10/09 A2970 RMK SC8 SLP061
Weight:
ca. 360.000 kg - 369.000 kg
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enginefailure
You just don’t get it, pray tell me how you know exactly the weight of the aircraft the type of engines mounted the WAT charts that were used if used at all, runway gradient etc. You don’t know and that’s why professional pilots won’t get into the game because of all the variables and none of the facts.
Cheers and if speculation is your thing enjoy..
You just don’t get it, pray tell me how you know exactly the weight of the aircraft the type of engines mounted the WAT charts that were used if used at all, runway gradient etc. You don’t know and that’s why professional pilots won’t get into the game because of all the variables and none of the facts.
Cheers and if speculation is your thing enjoy..
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no bad feelings here.
it's clear that you cannot calculate this exactly, but at least
even with some not known parameters (engines) you could say
i better take the whole 2700m runway then only 2000 meters.
it's clear that you cannot calculate this exactly, but at least
even with some not known parameters (engines) you could say
i better take the whole 2700m runway then only 2000 meters.
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enginefailure
Every heavy pilot that I know would have done the backtrack even though you only gain an extra 100 feet or so due to length and turning radius of the aircraft as available runway is always better in front then behind.
I don't know if this crew did the backtrack or even what exit they used so you can see the problem.
Cheers...
Every heavy pilot that I know would have done the backtrack even though you only gain an extra 100 feet or so due to length and turning radius of the aircraft as available runway is always better in front then behind.
I don't know if this crew did the backtrack or even what exit they used so you can see the problem.
Cheers...
Theorize
I note that you are just practcing your new member posting techniques. But partcipants on this forum are very sensitive about speculations without supporting facts shortly following an accident.
While others support the sharing of possible contributing factors based on experience or speciaizedl knowledge.
However, your linking of multiple connected speculations especialy regarding multiple crew actions leading to a crash appears to be pure musings without either the benefit of CVR , DFDR, past experience or specialized knowledge to support them.
Rest assured that as new facts are developed then the investigators in charge will start slowly to consider linking of these facts in a causal chain
cheers
I note that you are just practcing your new member posting techniques. But partcipants on this forum are very sensitive about speculations without supporting facts shortly following an accident.
While others support the sharing of possible contributing factors based on experience or speciaizedl knowledge.
However, your linking of multiple connected speculations especialy regarding multiple crew actions leading to a crash appears to be pure musings without either the benefit of CVR , DFDR, past experience or specialized knowledge to support them.
Rest assured that as new facts are developed then the investigators in charge will start slowly to consider linking of these facts in a causal chain
cheers
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GCC. Why not pick on them? You -- thanks for that -- gave the data. It's an atrocious record, and the good citizens of Belgium, as those of north Kent were, have good reason to be worried.
Theorise. Clear overrun areas would be massive improvement. Berms and other such obstacles turn accidents into tragedies. A Lufthansa captain was killed like this a while ago in an overrun at Warsaw. And what would have become of the 75 at Girona if there had been any obstacles in the way of its two kilometre sleigh-ride after the collapsed nose gear jammed the throttles open?
Theorise. Clear overrun areas would be massive improvement. Berms and other such obstacles turn accidents into tragedies. A Lufthansa captain was killed like this a while ago in an overrun at Warsaw. And what would have become of the 75 at Girona if there had been any obstacles in the way of its two kilometre sleigh-ride after the collapsed nose gear jammed the throttles open?
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Yes, perfect clearways would be wonderful in a perfect world.
I have extensive experience at YHZ, not lately, but if memory serves correctly, that berm had something to do with the ILS localizer antenna. I always assumed that it was necessary to make the ILS certifiable to Cat II standards. Initial reports of this accident were quite clear that the ILS antenna had been destroyed.
So maybe we cannot always have a perfect clearway, just adequate runway for the takeoff.
I have extensive experience at YHZ, not lately, but if memory serves correctly, that berm had something to do with the ILS localizer antenna. I always assumed that it was necessary to make the ILS certifiable to Cat II standards. Initial reports of this accident were quite clear that the ILS antenna had been destroyed.
So maybe we cannot always have a perfect clearway, just adequate runway for the takeoff.
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Ahh, so that's why the heavies don't want to take off down this runway (2443m)...... 
It has been tested with a AN-124 at about 80% MTOW 5 years ago......it made it.....but only just.
Sometimes a clearway is, well unrealistic!
It has been tested with a AN-124 at about 80% MTOW 5 years ago......it made it.....but only just.
Sometimes a clearway is, well unrealistic!
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Farty Flaps, Being in Africa does not get you out of Noise requirements. Besides, as far as budget cargo carrier MK has one of the quietest 747 Classic fleets.
Like I demonstrated in a previous post, if the airplane was anywhere near 800K TOW they never had a chance unless they were using flaps 20 for takeoff and even then it would have been very marginal.
Like I demonstrated in a previous post, if the airplane was anywhere near 800K TOW they never had a chance unless they were using flaps 20 for takeoff and even then it would have been very marginal.
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I just cannot help myself
PLEASE!! 2 days ago Shore guy posted a link to a report which had the following quote from an investigator:
“Responding to renewed questions about where the aircraft started its takeoff run, Fowler said it's believed the jet had used the majority of Runway 24, although he said it may have started shortly after the beginning of the runway.
Under ideal circumstance, the shortened run would still have given the aircraft enough room to take off, Fowler said.
When asked whether a shorter run and an engine problem could have contributed to the crash, Fowler suggested it was possible. “
Why then are we still banging on about this 700 m short business? Speculation has a habit of sticking to an accident long after the facts are known and the report is out. In this example this particular bit of b***ocks has stuck around for 2 days after being discounted by an investigator.
To those asking if 2000m is long enough for a heavy 742, short answer NO!!! But that is irrelevant anyway so why are you still asking? To those speculating (wildly) that the full length was not enough, give the crew some credit! They would not have even been trying if that was the case.
By my calcs IF the cargo weight was 103t then only a few tons of tanker fuel would have been possible before reaching landing weight restriction, hardly enough to cause this accident in isolation.
As those who are keeping quiet and those professionals who have made informed input already know, this accident will probably turn out to be a tragic chain of events and relatively small factors which added up to tragedy. Speculation here is bad because many non professionals will take what is said as fact and will not then bother to update themselves when the report comes out, so please be careful about what you say and where you hear it from.
One more thing, this is an example of how unreliable eyewitness reports can be. It has turned out that way many times before.
That’s my 5 cents
Thanks
PLEASE!! 2 days ago Shore guy posted a link to a report which had the following quote from an investigator:
“Responding to renewed questions about where the aircraft started its takeoff run, Fowler said it's believed the jet had used the majority of Runway 24, although he said it may have started shortly after the beginning of the runway.
Under ideal circumstance, the shortened run would still have given the aircraft enough room to take off, Fowler said.
When asked whether a shorter run and an engine problem could have contributed to the crash, Fowler suggested it was possible. “
Why then are we still banging on about this 700 m short business? Speculation has a habit of sticking to an accident long after the facts are known and the report is out. In this example this particular bit of b***ocks has stuck around for 2 days after being discounted by an investigator.
To those asking if 2000m is long enough for a heavy 742, short answer NO!!! But that is irrelevant anyway so why are you still asking? To those speculating (wildly) that the full length was not enough, give the crew some credit! They would not have even been trying if that was the case.
By my calcs IF the cargo weight was 103t then only a few tons of tanker fuel would have been possible before reaching landing weight restriction, hardly enough to cause this accident in isolation.
As those who are keeping quiet and those professionals who have made informed input already know, this accident will probably turn out to be a tragic chain of events and relatively small factors which added up to tragedy. Speculation here is bad because many non professionals will take what is said as fact and will not then bother to update themselves when the report comes out, so please be careful about what you say and where you hear it from.
One more thing, this is an example of how unreliable eyewitness reports can be. It has turned out that way many times before.
That’s my 5 cents
Thanks
Eight Gun Fighter
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October 19, 2004
HALIFAX (CP) - The cockpit voice recorder has been recovered from the wreckage of a crashed cargo plane, but is too badly damaged to be of use to investigators.
Bill Fowler of the Transportation Safety Board of Canada said Tuesday the recorder from the Boeing 747 was found Monday in a large debris field near Halifax International Airport.
But the so-called black box, one of two recovered from the MK Airlines Ltd. plane, was badly burned in the crash that killed all seven crewmen last Thursday.
HALIFAX (CP) - The cockpit voice recorder has been recovered from the wreckage of a crashed cargo plane, but is too badly damaged to be of use to investigators.
Bill Fowler of the Transportation Safety Board of Canada said Tuesday the recorder from the Boeing 747 was found Monday in a large debris field near Halifax International Airport.
But the so-called black box, one of two recovered from the MK Airlines Ltd. plane, was badly burned in the crash that killed all seven crewmen last Thursday.
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Performance
I am not in a position to comment the accident as I have no relevant information on payload, fuel load,CG or the route. However here is some info that might give an insight to those that do not do RWY performance calculations daily (Ie do not fly for living).
This is an extract from CDG RWY 09L based of B747-200 with RB211-D4X engines and a F20 take off. Field elevation is 390ft some 90ft below that of Halifax with similar RWY slope of +0.15 degrees. MTOW is in this case field lenght limited
Using Halifax weather at the time of the accident:
CYHZ 140800Z 25005KT 15SM OVC016 10/09 A2968 RMK SC8 SLP054
In the CDG example limiting MTOW is 351.4 tons.
Based on that
Flight from Halifax to Zaragoza using optimum random track (Great circle) zero wins and ISA conditions, would have been approximately 5h 30 minutes. Required trip fuel in the range of 65 tons, excluding all alternate, reserve, holding fuel, tankering and crew additions.
OEW: n/a
MZFW: n/a
MTOW: n/a
Payload: n/a
Reserves: n/a
Also note that MK aircraft was equipped with P&W JT9D-7Q engines and the above scenario was based on the more powerful R&R engines.
AD
This is an extract from CDG RWY 09L based of B747-200 with RB211-D4X engines and a F20 take off. Field elevation is 390ft some 90ft below that of Halifax with similar RWY slope of +0.15 degrees. MTOW is in this case field lenght limited
Using Halifax weather at the time of the accident:
CYHZ 140800Z 25005KT 15SM OVC016 10/09 A2968 RMK SC8 SLP054
In the CDG example limiting MTOW is 351.4 tons.
Based on that
Flight from Halifax to Zaragoza using optimum random track (Great circle) zero wins and ISA conditions, would have been approximately 5h 30 minutes. Required trip fuel in the range of 65 tons, excluding all alternate, reserve, holding fuel, tankering and crew additions.
OEW: n/a
MZFW: n/a
MTOW: n/a
Payload: n/a
Reserves: n/a
Also note that MK aircraft was equipped with P&W JT9D-7Q engines and the above scenario was based on the more powerful R&R engines.
AD
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Guys,
We can all speculate about the aircraft, runways, weather, flaps, berms etc for days on end. One aspect that has not been discussed is the crew... or more to the point the crew FDP.
Anyone who knows any of the pilots at MK also knows that the Bosses push the crew to the limit... and in some cases - beyond. We notice from the list of Crew killed on the flight (R.I.P) that they had a "Heavy Crew" onboard. The theory behind this is that you do not have to position crew in hotels along the way (which is expensive), but while one set flies the aircraft, the others crew take a break onboard. From what I gather, the 7 crew (2 Capt's & 1 F/O) had come through from Bradley Int (North of New York) via Halifax going to Zaragoza, Spain for final destination Luxembourg. A real Ball Breaker if I ever saw one!
Were the crew over their FDP??? Is Heavy Crewing legal??? I have my doubts and my personal feeling on this one is that the crew FDP played a serious part in this catastrophe.
We can all speculate about the aircraft, runways, weather, flaps, berms etc for days on end. One aspect that has not been discussed is the crew... or more to the point the crew FDP.
Anyone who knows any of the pilots at MK also knows that the Bosses push the crew to the limit... and in some cases - beyond. We notice from the list of Crew killed on the flight (R.I.P) that they had a "Heavy Crew" onboard. The theory behind this is that you do not have to position crew in hotels along the way (which is expensive), but while one set flies the aircraft, the others crew take a break onboard. From what I gather, the 7 crew (2 Capt's & 1 F/O) had come through from Bradley Int (North of New York) via Halifax going to Zaragoza, Spain for final destination Luxembourg. A real Ball Breaker if I ever saw one!
Were the crew over their FDP??? Is Heavy Crewing legal??? I have my doubts and my personal feeling on this one is that the crew FDP played a serious part in this catastrophe.
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Here is a picture I took of an MK747 just before it took off. The crew had just gone up the ramps and the doors closed.
Not sure where missing wing to body fairing falls on the MEL..............
Not sure where missing wing to body fairing falls on the MEL..............
Last edited by 747FOCAL; 19th Oct 2004 at 23:38.
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Right Runway - Wrong Airport?
From a prevoius post:
Runways:
06/24 8800' x 200' asphalt / concrete <=== used
They had departed Bradley field earlier that day (KBDL). I have flown out of KBDL and they have a 6/24 runway also, but it is about 10,000 feet long. Could the crew used KBDL runway for their calculations?
Runways:
06/24 8800' x 200' asphalt / concrete <=== used
They had departed Bradley field earlier that day (KBDL). I have flown out of KBDL and they have a 6/24 runway also, but it is about 10,000 feet long. Could the crew used KBDL runway for their calculations?
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Sorry to hear there won't be a CVR available, that won't help. 
Does anyone know about the FDR?
Also, I'd like to ask this question, since the tail broke off at the berm, why is the CVR too damaged to be used by the investigators? I thought the point of locating the CVR and FDR in the tail in most aircraft designs was to help protect them in a crash. Where exactly was the CVR and FDR located on this 747-200F? Apparently they weren't exactly in the tail.
Does anyone know about the FDR?
Also, I'd like to ask this question, since the tail broke off at the berm, why is the CVR too damaged to be used by the investigators? I thought the point of locating the CVR and FDR in the tail in most aircraft designs was to help protect them in a crash. Where exactly was the CVR and FDR located on this 747-200F? Apparently they weren't exactly in the tail.
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747FOCAL
Closer inspection using Photoshop shows that the aircraft in your picture is 9G-MKJ, the (although yet unconfirmed) ill-fated MK jet, preparing for departure at Findel 
While I don't know if these particular panels are in the MEL, I imagine they're there for more reasons than just to reduce drag. Keeping the weather out of the aircraft's interior cavities would be a good start. It saddens me to see an airworthy aircraft in such a condition.
While I don't know if these particular panels are in the MEL, I imagine they're there for more reasons than just to reduce drag. Keeping the weather out of the aircraft's interior cavities would be a good start. It saddens me to see an airworthy aircraft in such a condition.
Last edited by A-FLOOR; 19th Oct 2004 at 16:32.