MK Airlines B747 crash at Halifax
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: The World
Posts: 388
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The news media are reporting that Bill Fowler of the TSB is now saying although the voice recorder is badly damaged as the tape was broken they have managed to splice it back together and hope to be able to read it later on today.
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: here and there but mostly lgw
Posts: 166
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
747focal,
Developing arfican states and therefore their operators have /had extensions on meeting stage 3 req. it was deemed unfair in that the cost of binging their fleets upto date would be more of a financial burden on developing aviation industies. Additionally any form of audit is compromised due to the nature of business in Africa. Mk fills a slot in the third world market but as the modern manifesation of a sanction busting operation i personnally doubt their suitability for the first world unless they choose to submit to the authority of a first world authority.
Having a good bunch of talented gus at the controls cant make up for a management (like all) with a bottom line mentality but no one keeping them in check(local caa). Everything has a price in africa. One way or another youll pay it.
Atlanta already pointed out the difference between an mel and cdl but it does leave me wondering about your depth of knowledge and consequently the veracity of your opinion.
Developing arfican states and therefore their operators have /had extensions on meeting stage 3 req. it was deemed unfair in that the cost of binging their fleets upto date would be more of a financial burden on developing aviation industies. Additionally any form of audit is compromised due to the nature of business in Africa. Mk fills a slot in the third world market but as the modern manifesation of a sanction busting operation i personnally doubt their suitability for the first world unless they choose to submit to the authority of a first world authority.
Having a good bunch of talented gus at the controls cant make up for a management (like all) with a bottom line mentality but no one keeping them in check(local caa). Everything has a price in africa. One way or another youll pay it.
Atlanta already pointed out the difference between an mel and cdl but it does leave me wondering about your depth of knowledge and consequently the veracity of your opinion.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Skagness on the beach
Posts: 882
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Farty Flaps,
I have forgotten more about aircraft noise certification and general aircraft certification than most will ever hope to know. Anyone that has read my posts here on PPRUNE knows I can walk the walk and talk the talk.
Would you mind pointing out which of MKs 747 Classics do not have Stage 3 certification? In fact, unless you are a French person all 747 Classics are Stage 3 certified.
With the exception of the 707 era Boeing aircraft there are Stage 3 solutions for all models if I remember correctly. Some can be bought right from Boeing and others you can get from a third party. Very few 3rd world countries are flying jets into the EU or other noise sensative areas on waiver anymore. Hell, its getting hard to fly an MD-80 around the EU.
As far as you questioning my qualifications.........
ps. Before anybody jumps on this post because of my sometimes questionable posts regarding the Airbus product please don't take this thread down that path.
I have forgotten more about aircraft noise certification and general aircraft certification than most will ever hope to know. Anyone that has read my posts here on PPRUNE knows I can walk the walk and talk the talk.
Would you mind pointing out which of MKs 747 Classics do not have Stage 3 certification? In fact, unless you are a French person all 747 Classics are Stage 3 certified.
With the exception of the 707 era Boeing aircraft there are Stage 3 solutions for all models if I remember correctly. Some can be bought right from Boeing and others you can get from a third party. Very few 3rd world countries are flying jets into the EU or other noise sensative areas on waiver anymore. Hell, its getting hard to fly an MD-80 around the EU.
As far as you questioning my qualifications.........
ps. Before anybody jumps on this post because of my sometimes questionable posts regarding the Airbus product please don't take this thread down that path.
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: YVR
Posts: 91
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flight Safety,
The CVR and FDR in the 747 and 767 are located within the pressure vessel. They are at the back of the plane usually around the aft door or galley in the ceilling. They are not located back near the APU.
It also looks, from the pics available, that only the very aft section - such as the portion that houses the APU - hit the berm as there are tail feathers laying around but very little fusalage. It's not like it broke off at the pressure bulkhead area - which is what I first envisioned when it was mentioned that the tail 'snapped' or broke off.
The CVR and FDR in the 747 and 767 are located within the pressure vessel. They are at the back of the plane usually around the aft door or galley in the ceilling. They are not located back near the APU.
It also looks, from the pics available, that only the very aft section - such as the portion that houses the APU - hit the berm as there are tail feathers laying around but very little fusalage. It's not like it broke off at the pressure bulkhead area - which is what I first envisioned when it was mentioned that the tail 'snapped' or broke off.
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: north of the harbour
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
747FOCAL
Atlanta-Driver comments that the missing wing/fuselage fairing might incur performance penalties - I'm assuming fuel penalties in the cruise, as I don't see this being a significant drag factor in the acceleration of the plane down the runway. What was your reasoning for putting the photo in this thread, putting your obvious "a/c noise certification and general aircraft certification" knowledge aside? Seems a bit off the point? Or am I missing something?
Cheers
Atlanta-Driver comments that the missing wing/fuselage fairing might incur performance penalties - I'm assuming fuel penalties in the cruise, as I don't see this being a significant drag factor in the acceleration of the plane down the runway. What was your reasoning for putting the photo in this thread, putting your obvious "a/c noise certification and general aircraft certification" knowledge aside? Seems a bit off the point? Or am I missing something?
Cheers
Last edited by csomesense; 19th Oct 2004 at 23:26.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Skagness on the beach
Posts: 882
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
csomesense,
There is no brutality of my opinion. In fact there has been no expression of an opinion by me anywhere in this thread. I have posted questions, mostly more food for thought. I have posted real demonstrable takeoff performance. I have posted one picture. Even in that post where did I accuse ANYBODY of wrong doing or fault?
I post questions or I post facts. Those are the rules that govern my existence on pprune. If Danny decides one day that those rules are not good enough then I will take my hat and “Good day to you”.
Ps. Jet Blast posts are not part of the two rules expressed above. Those I try just to follow the rules.
csomesense,
Nice one on the edit after reading my last post.
There is no brutality of my opinion. In fact there has been no expression of an opinion by me anywhere in this thread. I have posted questions, mostly more food for thought. I have posted real demonstrable takeoff performance. I have posted one picture. Even in that post where did I accuse ANYBODY of wrong doing or fault?
I post questions or I post facts. Those are the rules that govern my existence on pprune. If Danny decides one day that those rules are not good enough then I will take my hat and “Good day to you”.
Ps. Jet Blast posts are not part of the two rules expressed above. Those I try just to follow the rules.
csomesense,
Nice one on the edit after reading my last post.
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: here and there but mostly lgw
Posts: 166
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
747f
Didnt question your qualifications old chap, as i dont know them. just your depth of practcal knowledge and subsequent general veracity of your knowledge and opinion.( previous opinions are not admiisible which is in your favour).Apparantly you are more informed on certain topics as you like to point out.
Big difference between knowledge and qualifications old bean. lots of chaps about with degrees et al but dont know diddly.
Personnally after a life time in africa i know where i would be looking inorder to prevent large areas of kent or ostend replacing a quarry. Think about it. First nigeria, now some upcountry strip in canada where next? What do we need to happen before the playing field is levelled, 9and that includes aai and ryr.)
Didnt question your qualifications old chap, as i dont know them. just your depth of practcal knowledge and subsequent general veracity of your knowledge and opinion.( previous opinions are not admiisible which is in your favour).Apparantly you are more informed on certain topics as you like to point out.
Big difference between knowledge and qualifications old bean. lots of chaps about with degrees et al but dont know diddly.
Personnally after a life time in africa i know where i would be looking inorder to prevent large areas of kent or ostend replacing a quarry. Think about it. First nigeria, now some upcountry strip in canada where next? What do we need to happen before the playing field is levelled, 9and that includes aai and ryr.)
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Skagness on the beach
Posts: 882
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Farty Flaps,
From you:
"Atlanta already pointed out the difference between an mel and cdl but it does leave me wondering about your depth of knowledge and consequently the veracity of your opinion."
Your saying this does not question???
Your bit there about being in Africa beckons that I am in some way allowing myself to become involved with who is responsible for this tragedy? Can you read; man?
I just said in my previous post that I do two things here:
1. Ask questions.
2. Post facts.
ps. Jet Blast does not count. All of us here know this.
From your last post it would appear you have a bone to pick not I.
From you:
"Atlanta already pointed out the difference between an mel and cdl but it does leave me wondering about your depth of knowledge and consequently the veracity of your opinion."
Your saying this does not question???
Your bit there about being in Africa beckons that I am in some way allowing myself to become involved with who is responsible for this tragedy? Can you read; man?
I just said in my previous post that I do two things here:
1. Ask questions.
2. Post facts.
ps. Jet Blast does not count. All of us here know this.
From your last post it would appear you have a bone to pick not I.
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: USA
Posts: 286
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
747F, I am not questioning your postings, but I too would be interested in when you took the picture. I don't think there is anything sinister in that query. I wonder if you would sink to the level of replying?
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: sunny country
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
After reading some messages about that terrible accident I'd like to know your opinions: (But first, see this picture on a Brazilian forum)
http://www.forumnow.com.br/vip/mensa...508562&nrpag=6
Did that MK 747 reach a height of 35ft by the end of the runway?
Has MK Airlines been following all recommended safety procedures?
Bkmk
http://www.forumnow.com.br/vip/mensa...508562&nrpag=6
Did that MK 747 reach a height of 35ft by the end of the runway?
Has MK Airlines been following all recommended safety procedures?
Bkmk
Eight Gun Fighter
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Western Approaches
Posts: 1,126
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The two recorders are being confused as to which one may deliver data.
CANADIAN PRESS
HALIFAX - Investigators searching for the cause of the crash last week of a Boeing 747 cargo jet won't get to hear from the two people who may have known exactly what happened.
After days of searching swampy, scorched terrain outside Halifax, officials recovered the aircraft's cockpit voice recorder from a kilometre-long trail of mangled debris.
"But that's the good news," Bill Fowler, lead investigator for the Transportation Safety Board of Canada, said during a news conference today.
"The not-so-good news is the recorder was damaged such that there is no retrievable information."
The so-called black box, which records the cockpit conversations of the pilot and co-pilot, was destroyed by fire after the MK Airlines Ltd. jumbo jet crashed on takeoff last Thursday at Halifax International Airport.
Fowler said the recorder was found yesterday and shipped to the board's lab in Ottawa.
It was quickly determined that no recording survived the fire that resulted when the jet, carrying a full load of fuel, hit the ground and broke up.
"It certainly would have helped but we were operating under the assumption we wouldn't have it," said Fowler, referring to the severity of the impact.
A second black box - the plane's flight data recorder - was recovered Sunday. That instrument, which monitors aircraft function and performance, was also damaged but investigators are hopeful it will offer fresh clues.
Fowler said the tape in the data recorder broke on impact, but has been repaired.
"I would hope that we can have some information on the data shortly, but I have to be realistic," he said. "It could be much longer - up to a week or two weeks - and that's on the outside."
CANADIAN PRESS
HALIFAX - Investigators searching for the cause of the crash last week of a Boeing 747 cargo jet won't get to hear from the two people who may have known exactly what happened.
After days of searching swampy, scorched terrain outside Halifax, officials recovered the aircraft's cockpit voice recorder from a kilometre-long trail of mangled debris.
"But that's the good news," Bill Fowler, lead investigator for the Transportation Safety Board of Canada, said during a news conference today.
"The not-so-good news is the recorder was damaged such that there is no retrievable information."
The so-called black box, which records the cockpit conversations of the pilot and co-pilot, was destroyed by fire after the MK Airlines Ltd. jumbo jet crashed on takeoff last Thursday at Halifax International Airport.
Fowler said the recorder was found yesterday and shipped to the board's lab in Ottawa.
It was quickly determined that no recording survived the fire that resulted when the jet, carrying a full load of fuel, hit the ground and broke up.
"It certainly would have helped but we were operating under the assumption we wouldn't have it," said Fowler, referring to the severity of the impact.
A second black box - the plane's flight data recorder - was recovered Sunday. That instrument, which monitors aircraft function and performance, was also damaged but investigators are hopeful it will offer fresh clues.
Fowler said the tape in the data recorder broke on impact, but has been repaired.
"I would hope that we can have some information on the data shortly, but I have to be realistic," he said. "It could be much longer - up to a week or two weeks - and that's on the outside."
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: north of the harbour
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
747Focal,
You reply hadn't appeared when I did my edit, apologies all the same. Apart from that, what was your question, or what fact were you trying to illustrate with the picture.
Cheers
You reply hadn't appeared when I did my edit, apologies all the same. Apart from that, what was your question, or what fact were you trying to illustrate with the picture.
Cheers
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: ME
Posts: 5,505
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Caluculated using Boeing Mark 7.
B747-200 D4 Engines Flaps 20.
RWY 24 CYHZ. 10C.
Climb Limit Weight = 393300 Kgs
Field Limit Weight = 345500 Kgs
The weights will differ slightly for the Pratt Engines.
Mutt.
B747-200 D4 Engines Flaps 20.
RWY 24 CYHZ. 10C.
Climb Limit Weight = 393300 Kgs
Field Limit Weight = 345500 Kgs
The weights will differ slightly for the Pratt Engines.
Mutt.
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
New photos here, including an overhead of the "berm" reported as being 300m from the end of the runway.
http://www.herald.ns.ca/stories/2004.../f161.raw.html
http://www.herald.ns.ca/stories/2004.../f161.raw.html
I was just looking at the pic of the missing fairing(s) and wondered what possible circumstances would this kind of situation be created by? If it's true the picture was taken just prior to departure then MEL or no MEL, it says something when bit's are missing from an aircraft. It would seem a natural thought process to wonder - if these parts are missing, then what else is either missing or faulty? how often is this deemed to be acceptable/within limits. Various posters have commented on MK's record, I for one am not qualified to judge, but as someone else put it, when compared loss vs hours/flights to a major carrier like BA, their record does not seem good. A smallish Company pushing ageing airframes too hard & too often must equal incidents or accidents - whatever the cause(s) this time. Please do not draw any conclusions from my location, I have no connection whatsoever to the the Company concerned.