Gulf Air - desperation & woes continue
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I am not a "gulfer" but even in my part of the world it is known that Gulf Air is looking like it is the underdog...especially when the Qatari's pulled out to support their own Qatar Airlines. It is also know that unless you are desparate, you want to stay away!!!! I think TCASTED has it right man!!
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Dear Tcast...
My my, seems I've hit a sore spot! Whatever would entice you to be so hot under the collar? I was possibly thinking that even though you have a burr under your saddle about GF, it was going to be a worthwhile debate wrt the CMB issue. I have since changed my mind. With your more than insulting language and less than professional treatment of a request for the facts, you have gone too far...If you have nothing good to say , then say nothing at all...or perhaps as the old saying goes,"better to keep ones mouth shut and let people think one stupid, than open it and prove it" (Before you accuse me of plagiarism, it's only a paraphrase.) As far as your intimations of my level of education, good thing you don't know me, you might be very surprised! Sorry you feel it's fun to belittle anothers opinion, guess it really shows your true nature. I am no longer interested in what you might have added to a decent thread. Good Day
LC
My my, seems I've hit a sore spot! Whatever would entice you to be so hot under the collar? I was possibly thinking that even though you have a burr under your saddle about GF, it was going to be a worthwhile debate wrt the CMB issue. I have since changed my mind. With your more than insulting language and less than professional treatment of a request for the facts, you have gone too far...If you have nothing good to say , then say nothing at all...or perhaps as the old saying goes,"better to keep ones mouth shut and let people think one stupid, than open it and prove it" (Before you accuse me of plagiarism, it's only a paraphrase.) As far as your intimations of my level of education, good thing you don't know me, you might be very surprised! Sorry you feel it's fun to belittle anothers opinion, guess it really shows your true nature. I am no longer interested in what you might have added to a decent thread. Good Day
LC
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Why would somebody like TCASTED who does not work at GF, go so far out of their way to insult the people who do work there? If you look into his past you will see exactly why.
Most of what he says is not true, company is expanding, recruiting and upgrading more than most. He seems to think he is the first to think AUH will pull out. Of course it's on the cards when ET can fill the 250 flights a week GF do from AUH. That's a while away yet but it certainly will NOT come as a surprise to GF. The situation is covered, if it was not would GF be looking for 10 additional aircraft(330 or 777) or would JH have just signed on for another 3 years? Bahrain and Oman still need an airline dont forget. All I have to say.
Most of what he says is not true, company is expanding, recruiting and upgrading more than most. He seems to think he is the first to think AUH will pull out. Of course it's on the cards when ET can fill the 250 flights a week GF do from AUH. That's a while away yet but it certainly will NOT come as a surprise to GF. The situation is covered, if it was not would GF be looking for 10 additional aircraft(330 or 777) or would JH have just signed on for another 3 years? Bahrain and Oman still need an airline dont forget. All I have to say.
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Gear up, flaps up, shut up!
Alternatively, you may wish to consider keeping your trap shut for the next twenty years or so, until you have enough experience to make an educated comment.
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TCASTED
May I ask you a couple of questions to assist my judgement and help me determine the possible reason or reasons for your open attack on Gulf Air?
1) I assume you don’t work for GF. Is that right?
2) Have you ever work for the airline?
3) If you have work for GF, would you be able to tell us why you left?
4) Again, if you previously work for GF, would you be prepared to tell us when?
5) Also which department/fleet?
6) If you are a pilot and worked for GF, would you be prepared to say which company you went to after you left?
7) Finally did you ever sell second hand cars and held several licences, from South Africa, Zimbabwe, and another four or five countries?
I don’t work for GF, I am not from the Middle East and I don’t live there.
However, I just thought that I might have had the pleasure of knowing you from another airline.
If I have the wrong guy I apologise in advance.
Cheers.
VS.
May I ask you a couple of questions to assist my judgement and help me determine the possible reason or reasons for your open attack on Gulf Air?
1) I assume you don’t work for GF. Is that right?
2) Have you ever work for the airline?
3) If you have work for GF, would you be able to tell us why you left?
4) Again, if you previously work for GF, would you be prepared to tell us when?
5) Also which department/fleet?
6) If you are a pilot and worked for GF, would you be prepared to say which company you went to after you left?
7) Finally did you ever sell second hand cars and held several licences, from South Africa, Zimbabwe, and another four or five countries?
I don’t work for GF, I am not from the Middle East and I don’t live there.
However, I just thought that I might have had the pleasure of knowing you from another airline.
If I have the wrong guy I apologise in advance.
Cheers.
VS.
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I'm a fairly regular pax on GF. My last flight was BKK/LHR via BAH and return last Christmas and I shall be repeating the experience again next month.
I really don't give a rats about prima donna Bahraini Pursers or what the Flight Deck chaps receive in remuneration. If I am concerned about anything it is that the aircraft is servicable, well maintained and operated in accordance with the manufacturers recommendations.
My attitude (as an ex Merchant Navy Officer) is that the Captain's word is law during the period that the aircraft is in the air. That's an international thing - nothing at all to do with the mind set and attitudes of staff who are employed locally.
If the American Captain was (as described) so summarily dismissed then I have to assume that there were other factors involved. As a passenger my attitude is "his problem not mine" so long as I get to my destination on time and without suffering with DVT.
Provided the Cabin Crew supply me with a couple of timely GT's and a passable meal I can stomach the experience for as long as it takes to get to the first stop (BAH) where I disembark, go and stay with friends for the night and then refreshed, showered and with a change of keks, I get on board another A343 for the next leg.
I know that this is an aircrew forum but please, all of you, stop blubbering about your individual working relationships with your employers.
You chose the airline to work for. If it sucks as an employer then leave and go somewhere else. If what I read in the aviation press is true, there are hundreds of jobs up for grabs all over the world.
Go apply. If you are any good they'll snap you up.
I really don't give a rats about prima donna Bahraini Pursers or what the Flight Deck chaps receive in remuneration. If I am concerned about anything it is that the aircraft is servicable, well maintained and operated in accordance with the manufacturers recommendations.
My attitude (as an ex Merchant Navy Officer) is that the Captain's word is law during the period that the aircraft is in the air. That's an international thing - nothing at all to do with the mind set and attitudes of staff who are employed locally.
If the American Captain was (as described) so summarily dismissed then I have to assume that there were other factors involved. As a passenger my attitude is "his problem not mine" so long as I get to my destination on time and without suffering with DVT.
Provided the Cabin Crew supply me with a couple of timely GT's and a passable meal I can stomach the experience for as long as it takes to get to the first stop (BAH) where I disembark, go and stay with friends for the night and then refreshed, showered and with a change of keks, I get on board another A343 for the next leg.
I know that this is an aircrew forum but please, all of you, stop blubbering about your individual working relationships with your employers.
You chose the airline to work for. If it sucks as an employer then leave and go somewhere else. If what I read in the aviation press is true, there are hundreds of jobs up for grabs all over the world.
Go apply. If you are any good they'll snap you up.
Last edited by Xeque; 22nd Jul 2004 at 17:57.
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Xeque:
I read your post and I am saddened by your comments. You seem to base your airline choice on the quality of your G & T’s.
You are quite correct, this is an aircrew forum.
The “blubbering” to which you refer, is posted in order that individuals in our industry may be informed, are able to make the best decisions on career moves that will not only affect their own lives, but in many cases the lives of their families. It is also and an exchange of ideas and comments. I may not always agree with some of the "blubbering" but I am grateful for the participation.
You wouldn’t want the “blubbering” to stop and have your pilot be ignorant of the current events within the airline industry would you?
“His problem not mine, so long as I get to my destination on time” is not the kind of comment I would have expected from an ex-Merchant Navy Officer.
You state that "the Captain's word is law." This is NOT so at Gulf Air. Their were no other factors involved regarding the termination of the Captain in question.
At Gulf Air the Captain of the aircraft may make his decisions, in part, based on the Purser's standing within the airline and the effect that Purser may have on the Captain's career. Not all Captain's are Captain's in the true sense of the word. Some of them are frightened to say anything rather than risk offending the standing of a local employee.
Remember, the Flight Seniors or pursers at Gulf Air are known as "The Untouchables."
As an ex-Merchant Navy Officer, I am astonished that you would support such an airline.
Enjoy your G & T's.
I read your post and I am saddened by your comments. You seem to base your airline choice on the quality of your G & T’s.
You are quite correct, this is an aircrew forum.
The “blubbering” to which you refer, is posted in order that individuals in our industry may be informed, are able to make the best decisions on career moves that will not only affect their own lives, but in many cases the lives of their families. It is also and an exchange of ideas and comments. I may not always agree with some of the "blubbering" but I am grateful for the participation.
You wouldn’t want the “blubbering” to stop and have your pilot be ignorant of the current events within the airline industry would you?
“His problem not mine, so long as I get to my destination on time” is not the kind of comment I would have expected from an ex-Merchant Navy Officer.
You state that "the Captain's word is law." This is NOT so at Gulf Air. Their were no other factors involved regarding the termination of the Captain in question.
At Gulf Air the Captain of the aircraft may make his decisions, in part, based on the Purser's standing within the airline and the effect that Purser may have on the Captain's career. Not all Captain's are Captain's in the true sense of the word. Some of them are frightened to say anything rather than risk offending the standing of a local employee.
Remember, the Flight Seniors or pursers at Gulf Air are known as "The Untouchables."
As an ex-Merchant Navy Officer, I am astonished that you would support such an airline.
Enjoy your G & T's.
After staying with any airline 10, 15, especially 20 years, leaving means cutting off your career. There is no retirement in the US if you leave after 15 years. Even 20. We can not restart our careers, which means having no bidding options and work for bank teller salaries again.
I would expect that most passengers are still too ignorant about our profession to know this fact, which everyone in the US airline industry is painfully aware of. Many do not even realize how blissfully ignorant they are.
Guess that's why some of us call passengers "self-loading" freight. But educated by rumours, Hollywood movies, and popular misconceptions, they know it all from "the inside".
I would expect that most passengers are still too ignorant about our profession to know this fact, which everyone in the US airline industry is painfully aware of. Many do not even realize how blissfully ignorant they are.
Guess that's why some of us call passengers "self-loading" freight. But educated by rumours, Hollywood movies, and popular misconceptions, they know it all from "the inside".
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Hi Tcasted,
I seem to have upset you. Sorry.
In my day "the passenger was always right". Indeed the late Noel Coward included a song with that title in his London stage production of the musical "Sail Away".
It would serve many who contibute to this forum better if the term "self loading freight" were to be done away with.
Before the 747 screwed it up for all of us, the Merchant Navy was the main 'people carrier' around the world and woe betide any of us, officers or ratings, who treated a passenger with such contempt.
You castigate me for chosing to fly Gulf Air. Why should I not? From a passenger point of view it is just another airline and the woes that may beset its employees have absolutely nothing whatever to do with me.
However, there are two very good reasons why I do choose GF.
The first is that, with the exception of Phuket Air which has a promotion on at the moment and offers BKK/LGW via DXB and return LGW/BKK direct for 6,000 Baht less, Gulf Air's BKK/LHR return fare is the least expensive available for the doubtful privilege of cramming myself into a 17 by 28 inch box whilst praying that the person in front does not elect to fully recline their seat for the whole of the journey.
My policy, as someone who is mindful of his health, is that I do not fly sectors of more than 7 hours or so. If my journeytime is longer than that I break the journey so that I can get a proper night's sleep in a bed, a shave and shower in the morning and a change of clothes before I continue the journey.
This is leads to the second reason for choosing Gulf Air. I lived in Bahrain for many years and I have many friends there with whom I like to keep in touch. Gulf Air is the only airline out of Bangkok that offers me BKK/BAH direct so that I can make a stopover in Bahrain on my way to London.
I repeat what I said last night. If the airline is as bad an employer as you say then move on.
I seem to have upset you. Sorry.
In my day "the passenger was always right". Indeed the late Noel Coward included a song with that title in his London stage production of the musical "Sail Away".
It would serve many who contibute to this forum better if the term "self loading freight" were to be done away with.
Before the 747 screwed it up for all of us, the Merchant Navy was the main 'people carrier' around the world and woe betide any of us, officers or ratings, who treated a passenger with such contempt.
You castigate me for chosing to fly Gulf Air. Why should I not? From a passenger point of view it is just another airline and the woes that may beset its employees have absolutely nothing whatever to do with me.
However, there are two very good reasons why I do choose GF.
The first is that, with the exception of Phuket Air which has a promotion on at the moment and offers BKK/LGW via DXB and return LGW/BKK direct for 6,000 Baht less, Gulf Air's BKK/LHR return fare is the least expensive available for the doubtful privilege of cramming myself into a 17 by 28 inch box whilst praying that the person in front does not elect to fully recline their seat for the whole of the journey.
My policy, as someone who is mindful of his health, is that I do not fly sectors of more than 7 hours or so. If my journeytime is longer than that I break the journey so that I can get a proper night's sleep in a bed, a shave and shower in the morning and a change of clothes before I continue the journey.
This is leads to the second reason for choosing Gulf Air. I lived in Bahrain for many years and I have many friends there with whom I like to keep in touch. Gulf Air is the only airline out of Bangkok that offers me BKK/BAH direct so that I can make a stopover in Bahrain on my way to London.
I repeat what I said last night. If the airline is as bad an employer as you say then move on.
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Tcasted,
Your last post and mine seem to have coincided.
From the report it would seem that the key to the Captain's problem was not the Flight Attendant's attitude but the fact that the flight could not depart with only 5 crew in the cabin thereby not allowing him to "send the
ashore"!
My understanding is that the minimum number of cabin staff is dictated by the number of exit doors - i.e. 6 doors = 6 cabin staff, one to man each in an emergency although I have to ask why Easyjet and Ryanair (in the UK) can operate with only 3 cabin staff on a 737?
What would have happened if a member of the cabin crew had gone sick? Would the flight not have departed then?
If this is a problem then perhaps it could be solved if members of station staff were to be trained in emergency evacuation proceedures for various types of aircraft and who could be utilised at short notice.
Your last post and mine seem to have coincided.
From the report it would seem that the key to the Captain's problem was not the Flight Attendant's attitude but the fact that the flight could not depart with only 5 crew in the cabin thereby not allowing him to "send the
ashore"!My understanding is that the minimum number of cabin staff is dictated by the number of exit doors - i.e. 6 doors = 6 cabin staff, one to man each in an emergency although I have to ask why Easyjet and Ryanair (in the UK) can operate with only 3 cabin staff on a 737?
What would have happened if a member of the cabin crew had gone sick? Would the flight not have departed then?
If this is a problem then perhaps it could be solved if members of station staff were to be trained in emergency evacuation proceedures for various types of aircraft and who could be utilised at short notice.
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some impressive letter... wish I was that brave and confident.
Seems to me though that old captain might have been waiting to pounce on irritating purser.. and had all his facts and rules/regs prepared...
How'd you manage to get a copy of it ??
You did'nt write it yourself did you ??
Seems to me though that old captain might have been waiting to pounce on irritating purser.. and had all his facts and rules/regs prepared...
How'd you manage to get a copy of it ??
You did'nt write it yourself did you ??
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Xeque,
Without wishing to divert the course of this forum,the number of C/C required is not dictated by no. of exits but by the number of pax that the aircraft is certified to carry. eg charter 757 capacity is 235pax Normal crew is 6-7 but can be reduced to 5 min,yet 757 has 8 exits.This leaves 3 exits uncovered.Works other way in that if you only had 3 pax on a flight you'd still require 5 Cabin Crew.
Without wishing to divert the course of this forum,the number of C/C required is not dictated by no. of exits but by the number of pax that the aircraft is certified to carry. eg charter 757 capacity is 235pax Normal crew is 6-7 but can be reduced to 5 min,yet 757 has 8 exits.This leaves 3 exits uncovered.Works other way in that if you only had 3 pax on a flight you'd still require 5 Cabin Crew.
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birdbrain,
Very interesting point you make. Something along those lines crossed my mind.
TCASED,
There are always two sides to a story.
Hey, by the way... you haven't answered the questions of my previous post. You are from South Africa, right? I think we could be ex-colleagues.
Come on, be a sport and tell us a bit about yourself. Give us some answers. As I said before there are always two sides to a story. Come on! show us the axe you have to grind. You don't know, we might even sympathise with you. You sound like a nice unbiased kind of guy, somebody that likes to be fair and wouldn’t bear grudges. People understand, just talk to us. Tell us more on what happened. We are all friends here on the aviation community.
VS
Very interesting point you make. Something along those lines crossed my mind.
TCASED,
There are always two sides to a story.
Hey, by the way... you haven't answered the questions of my previous post. You are from South Africa, right? I think we could be ex-colleagues.
Come on, be a sport and tell us a bit about yourself. Give us some answers. As I said before there are always two sides to a story. Come on! show us the axe you have to grind. You don't know, we might even sympathise with you. You sound like a nice unbiased kind of guy, somebody that likes to be fair and wouldn’t bear grudges. People understand, just talk to us. Tell us more on what happened. We are all friends here on the aviation community.
VS
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TCASTED
ICAO can not do anything at all and never will.
ICAO can not and will not intervene in any personal dispute and has to respect the rights of every sovereign state.
This incident certainly is NOT an “internal matter” any more. ICAO is now involved along with numerous international agencies and authorities. Gulf Air code-share partner American Airlines are also “looking” at the incident.
ICAO can not do anything at all and never will.
ICAO can not and will not intervene in any personal dispute and has to respect the rights of every sovereign state.
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TCASTED
Do not get me wrong, I went down the same road. A lot of sympathy and acknowledgments from Montreal but no direct involvements just a couple of safety reports.
Please check you Personal Mail
Do not get me wrong, I went down the same road. A lot of sympathy and acknowledgments from Montreal but no direct involvements just a couple of safety reports.
Please check you Personal Mail
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You see!
His accommodation was paid for.
As for Bahraini's being untouchable - not true!.
I first moved to the Gulf in 1976, living and working in Saudi Arabia. It was said then that you could never sack a Saudi but you could. The labour law was very specific in the proceedure to be followed and provided you did follow it and the case was just, the Saudi got sacked.
It is very similar in Bahrain (I was last there from 1990 to 2002). If you have a just case and you follow the rules laid down by the Labour Court, you can sack a Bahraini.
Now, this Senior Flight Attendant (whoever he was) had 22 years service with Gulf Air. How many years (months) did the Captain have? I think one has to cut the S F/A some slack and (perhaps) give him an opportunity to speak for himself on this forum. I'm sure there are plenty of Pruners out there who could give him access.
Something upset him that day. What was it?
The whole 'untouchable' thing sounds ridiculous. I have this vision of sitting in the left hand seat of my Bo-bus, final to 30 BAH and arriving at the item on the check list that says "Call the Senior F/A and ask permission to land"
Come on people. Get real. You are either PIC or your not.
The Bahraini's are a proud people who do not take kindly to being rubbished by expats but sadly that happens all the time particularly by recent arrivals. The Arab way of doing things differs from the Western/European way and must be taken into account by expats who wish to live and work there in harmony with their hosts.
We all found our own and were paid an allowance in lieu of company housing.
As for Bahraini's being untouchable - not true!.
I first moved to the Gulf in 1976, living and working in Saudi Arabia. It was said then that you could never sack a Saudi but you could. The labour law was very specific in the proceedure to be followed and provided you did follow it and the case was just, the Saudi got sacked.
It is very similar in Bahrain (I was last there from 1990 to 2002). If you have a just case and you follow the rules laid down by the Labour Court, you can sack a Bahraini.
Now, this Senior Flight Attendant (whoever he was) had 22 years service with Gulf Air. How many years (months) did the Captain have? I think one has to cut the S F/A some slack and (perhaps) give him an opportunity to speak for himself on this forum. I'm sure there are plenty of Pruners out there who could give him access.
Something upset him that day. What was it?
The whole 'untouchable' thing sounds ridiculous. I have this vision of sitting in the left hand seat of my Bo-bus, final to 30 BAH and arriving at the item on the check list that says "Call the Senior F/A and ask permission to land"
Come on people. Get real. You are either PIC or your not.
The Bahraini's are a proud people who do not take kindly to being rubbished by expats but sadly that happens all the time particularly by recent arrivals. The Arab way of doing things differs from the Western/European way and must be taken into account by expats who wish to live and work there in harmony with their hosts.
Last edited by Xeque; 23rd Jul 2004 at 16:52.
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That's why if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen. Working in such a different society ain't easy. So anyone trying to make some extra $$$ should think twice. There's no free lunch, so if get extra $$$, where's the catch? Terrorism, no free speech, religious fundamentalism,etc,etc.
I much rather prefer earn a little less, but I have my family with me, can have dinner out with friends, pray to any God I want (if I want), can talk to women, you know, normal western world stuff that you do without thinking that there are parts of the world where this little things are forbiden.
I much rather prefer earn a little less, but I have my family with me, can have dinner out with friends, pray to any God I want (if I want), can talk to women, you know, normal western world stuff that you do without thinking that there are parts of the world where this little things are forbiden.