LHR Breathtest. Update: Captain jailed
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bjcc
Maybe a third request won't do no good but I'll try anyways. PLEASE let the discussion move on.
This ain't Jetblast, you don't have to keep saying the same thing over and over and over. You made your points. Just because somebody else gives an opposite opinion later don't mean you have to give yours all over again. When you start with "As I have said before", it's a good sign not to say it again.
There's a whole bunch of things I think you're wrong about, like security guards are instructed to report pilots they suspect have been drinking (bet you've never seen their instructions) and losing their jobs if they don't, like no damage to a pilot's reputation if he's innocent
when the have told the newspapers he got arrested 
but arging with you about them they ain't gonna help anybody learn anything so I won't.
As TreeTrimmer said "If you could move on with the thread, maybe we could learn something other than your opinion on this case."
Maybe a third request won't do no good but I'll try anyways. PLEASE let the discussion move on.
This ain't Jetblast, you don't have to keep saying the same thing over and over and over. You made your points. Just because somebody else gives an opposite opinion later don't mean you have to give yours all over again. When you start with "As I have said before", it's a good sign not to say it again.
There's a whole bunch of things I think you're wrong about, like security guards are instructed to report pilots they suspect have been drinking (bet you've never seen their instructions) and losing their jobs if they don't, like no damage to a pilot's reputation if he's innocent
when the have told the newspapers he got arrested but arging with you about them they ain't gonna help anybody learn anything so I won't.As TreeTrimmer said "If you could move on with the thread, maybe we could learn something other than your opinion on this case."
ex-Tanker
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So where do you wish to move on to, Bronx?
In this particular case the guy was indiscussably unfit to fly.
An employee of the airline industry (motto - we are all responsible for flight safety - not just pilots) reported this as best he saw fit.
The pilot didn''t fly.
The passengers and crew are all inconvenienced but safe.
Sure it isn't nice to be caught. It could perhaps have been done more discreetly BUT - as you yourself suspect, the security man was not trained in this specific case. He did his best to prevent an accident.
To my discredit, I once flew from Nairobi to - er Europe after the FE and I had become aware that the captain was probably under the influence of alcohol. We later had to correct several situations in flight as a result of this. I am not proud of this action and wish I had had the moral courage of this security man.
As far as I am concerned, the only way to "move on" is for us all to get quite a bit more responsible on the subject.
In this particular case the guy was indiscussably unfit to fly.
An employee of the airline industry (motto - we are all responsible for flight safety - not just pilots) reported this as best he saw fit.
The pilot didn''t fly.
The passengers and crew are all inconvenienced but safe.
Sure it isn't nice to be caught. It could perhaps have been done more discreetly BUT - as you yourself suspect, the security man was not trained in this specific case. He did his best to prevent an accident.
To my discredit, I once flew from Nairobi to - er Europe after the FE and I had become aware that the captain was probably under the influence of alcohol. We later had to correct several situations in flight as a result of this. I am not proud of this action and wish I had had the moral courage of this security man.
As far as I am concerned, the only way to "move on" is for us all to get quite a bit more responsible on the subject.
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Flying Lawyer posted 23rd December 2003 21:55
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bjcc
Re "I doubt if Police would want to go wandering airside areas in the hope of catching a pilot out."
Perhaps not.
But if some security screener (or anyone else) decides to report his/her suspicions, either because he regards it as his 'duty' or because a pilot has upset him, the police would undoubtedly go into action.
[Last edited by Flying Lawyer on 24th December 2003 at 04:25]
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bjcc
Re "I doubt if Police would want to go wandering airside areas in the hope of catching a pilot out."
Perhaps not.
But if some security screener (or anyone else) decides to report his/her suspicions, either because he regards it as his 'duty' or because a pilot has upset him, the police would undoubtedly go into action.
[Last edited by Flying Lawyer on 24th December 2003 at 04:25]
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I am more than happy to move on. But the constant repeat of blame towards the security guard is in my opinon wrong. When the attempts to blame others stop, then I will stop defending them. It's as simple as that. Thats my 2 cents worth.
Bronx, I spent 13 years working at Heathrow as a Police Officer, so yes, I do know the BAA Security instructions, and erksome as some of them are, they do not allow descression at most levels, They have a set proccedure, they follow it, or find the door.
A small correction, what FL said was the pilot had a run in with the supervisor at the control post previously regarding inappropriate comments about female crew. There was no allagation that this guard was involved in that, and in fact as there are several hundred guards working a 24 hour shift system where they rotate round the numerous airside entry points, it 's not lightly he was involved.
facsimile
What you say is true, the Police will do something if it's reported to them. I'm sorry but I don't follow your point, are you suggesting they shouldn't?
From experience, I didn't have time to cruise the airside areas looking for pilots doing things wrong, I had more pressing things to do.
There is no reason why anyone should not report anything that they regard as illegal or wrong to the Police. It's the way the Police have operated since they were formed in the UK.
Bronx, I spent 13 years working at Heathrow as a Police Officer, so yes, I do know the BAA Security instructions, and erksome as some of them are, they do not allow descression at most levels, They have a set proccedure, they follow it, or find the door.
A small correction, what FL said was the pilot had a run in with the supervisor at the control post previously regarding inappropriate comments about female crew. There was no allagation that this guard was involved in that, and in fact as there are several hundred guards working a 24 hour shift system where they rotate round the numerous airside entry points, it 's not lightly he was involved.
facsimile
What you say is true, the Police will do something if it's reported to them. I'm sorry but I don't follow your point, are you suggesting they shouldn't?
From experience, I didn't have time to cruise the airside areas looking for pilots doing things wrong, I had more pressing things to do.
There is no reason why anyone should not report anything that they regard as illegal or wrong to the Police. It's the way the Police have operated since they were formed in the UK.
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How much can one safely drink? .....
Will food help reduce the effects of drink .....
where can I get a reliable Breath Tester? ....
Some of the questions being asked .... its not the "Direction" to go guys!
......
Drink moderately before Duty and not at all 24 hours B/4 any flight ..... if you want a drink try Alchohol free Larger, Ice Cold - you wont like to drink a bucket of it and you wont get a "Buzz" from it but that's the whole idea
Will food help reduce the effects of drink .....
where can I get a reliable Breath Tester? ....
Some of the questions being asked .... its not the "Direction" to go guys!
...... Drink moderately before Duty and not at all 24 hours B/4 any flight ..... if you want a drink try Alchohol free Larger, Ice Cold - you wont like to drink a bucket of it and you wont get a "Buzz" from it but that's the whole idea
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Bjcc wrote:
I should bloody well hope not darling
Gives a new meaning to your name tho', but i bet you were cute in that uniform
Dont you hate it when something innocent is taken out of context. just the like the potential treatment we can expect from the tabloids should my paranoia be realised, while security sid or dave the driver get on with reading the sun and telling their mates in the pub for the rest of their lives, and then driving to work after a heavy night out.
Just because you are paranoid doesnt mean they are not out to get you.
I didn't have time to cruise the airside areas looking for pilots
Gives a new meaning to your name tho', but i bet you were cute in that uniform
Dont you hate it when something innocent is taken out of context. just the like the potential treatment we can expect from the tabloids should my paranoia be realised, while security sid or dave the driver get on with reading the sun and telling their mates in the pub for the rest of their lives, and then driving to work after a heavy night out.
Just because you are paranoid doesnt mean they are not out to get you.
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bjcc
"When the attempts to blame others stop, then I will stop defending them. It's as simple as that."
I wish you didn't take that view which IMHO is little better than a threat to disrupt the discussion if anyone dares to disagree with your views on the security guard. You've said what you think. Some others take a different view. So what?
You obviously think that aspect is of great importance. I think it's irrelevant and not worth arguing about. There's no point in my joining the chorus asking you to let it go - but I wish you would.
Re your 'small correction':
Simply for accuracy, not because I think it has any relevance to what people are now trying to discuss, but it was the same guard. Praise for his moral courage may be misplaced.
facsimile didn't suggest the police shouldn't have taken action. He said nothing of the sort. He simply commented on a coincidence.
Dear me, you do look for little things to disagree with. Good sport, but you might want to consider whether it helps or hinders discussion of the more important issues.
Merry Christmas to you and to anyone else still reading.
I'm logging off for the weekend.
"When the attempts to blame others stop, then I will stop defending them. It's as simple as that."
I wish you didn't take that view which IMHO is little better than a threat to disrupt the discussion if anyone dares to disagree with your views on the security guard. You've said what you think. Some others take a different view. So what?
You obviously think that aspect is of great importance. I think it's irrelevant and not worth arguing about. There's no point in my joining the chorus asking you to let it go - but I wish you would.
Re your 'small correction':
Simply for accuracy, not because I think it has any relevance to what people are now trying to discuss, but it was the same guard. Praise for his moral courage may be misplaced.
facsimile didn't suggest the police shouldn't have taken action. He said nothing of the sort. He simply commented on a coincidence.
Dear me, you do look for little things to disagree with. Good sport, but you might want to consider whether it helps or hinders discussion of the more important issues.
Merry Christmas to you and to anyone else still reading.
I'm logging off for the weekend.
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The security guard is not in a position to answer the sillier comments on the issue, if its not mentioned again, then I wont either.
dicksynormous
Duckie, you may have been right, but I take your point.
Mine was yep, it wont do your prospects any good if you do get as far as being arrested, but in that aircrew are not alone.
Merry xmas...and give us a kiss
dicksynormous
Duckie, you may have been right, but I take your point.
Mine was yep, it wont do your prospects any good if you do get as far as being arrested, but in that aircrew are not alone.
Merry xmas...and give us a kiss
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One of my kids used to try to get her own way like bjcc.
We didn't give in and thankfully she grew out of it when she started school.
Pathetic in an adult.
Looks like he means his threat. Best to let him get on with it.
Once a policeman, always a policeman I guess.
I'm very careful and pretty confident the new law won't affect me.
Hope they don't turn out to be famous last words.
We didn't give in and thankfully she grew out of it when she started school.
Pathetic in an adult.
Looks like he means his threat. Best to let him get on with it.
Once a policeman, always a policeman I guess.
I'm very careful and pretty confident the new law won't affect me.
Hope they don't turn out to be famous last words.
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BJCC
You will notice this my first post-but don't let that fool you, I've been in on PPRUNE from the start.
I joined again to give you the message that I have got sick to death of coming onto this forum and listen to your pontificating on points of law.
It gets a bit tedious reading your guff, and worse , your piss@ng people like FL off , -his is one contribution(unlike your own) that I'm sure many appreciate here.
Just to tell you matey, I joined the service when Z-cars were still on TV, and reached a rank higher than PC-oh yes, and when I used to write my reports, my spelling was not as embarrassing as yours-an old chestnut now on this forum-but for someone who likes to get the last say, you fall flat on yer face with your writings.
Why don't you get a life? BJCC
You will notice this my first post-but don't let that fool you, I've been in on PPRUNE from the start.
I joined again to give you the message that I have got sick to death of coming onto this forum and listen to your pontificating on points of law.
It gets a bit tedious reading your guff, and worse , your piss@ng people like FL off , -his is one contribution(unlike your own) that I'm sure many appreciate here.
Just to tell you matey, I joined the service when Z-cars were still on TV, and reached a rank higher than PC-oh yes, and when I used to write my reports, my spelling was not as embarrassing as yours-an old chestnut now on this forum-but for someone who likes to get the last say, you fall flat on yer face with your writings.
Why don't you get a life? BJCC
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mach79
I am happy you can express your point of view. I have a life but thank you for your comments.
I don't regard defending someone who is constantly attacked without looking at his point of view as 'pontificating' on points of law, but then you were (you say) of a higher rank, and therefore must know better.
I am happy you can express your point of view. I have a life but thank you for your comments.
I don't regard defending someone who is constantly attacked without looking at his point of view as 'pontificating' on points of law, but then you were (you say) of a higher rank, and therefore must know better.
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BJCC
No, I wasn't one of the ones who abused their rank with a holier -than- thou, I know better attitude.
By the way, "I didn't know better"- I knew what I had to know, and knew exactly what I could and couldn't do within the law, -and in my time saw a lot that happened outwith the law, at a time when it was common practice.
It just strikes me after reading your posts that you could put your point of view across better than you have been doing. Maybe this is why you have been "constantly attacked" as you put it.
By the way-in case you didn't know, there is an awful lot of ex-cops out there who became pilots.
No, I wasn't one of the ones who abused their rank with a holier -than- thou, I know better attitude.
By the way, "I didn't know better"- I knew what I had to know, and knew exactly what I could and couldn't do within the law, -and in my time saw a lot that happened outwith the law, at a time when it was common practice.
It just strikes me after reading your posts that you could put your point of view across better than you have been doing. Maybe this is why you have been "constantly attacked" as you put it.
By the way-in case you didn't know, there is an awful lot of ex-cops out there who became pilots.
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mach79
What you call constant attack doesn't bother me. Perhaps if you read the entire thread you will note than there are many others who have, if not defended this guy, agree that he shouldn't be slated for what he did. Those include pilots. I have not defended the guard except where he has been attacked. Remember he's not here to defend himself, and whatever the history, he really did not have an option.
I agree with Bronx when he said this was developing in the right direction. However the constant attempts to shift the blame to others in not helpful. If someone falls foul of this legislation, then it is they alone that are responsible.
I am pleased you didn't abuse your rank. And Z cars was still being shown on TV when I joined.
I accept I can put things badly, and I am completly open about my lack of ability to spell! But thank you for pointing it out (again!)
Perhaps this can now move on without attacking people.
What you call constant attack doesn't bother me. Perhaps if you read the entire thread you will note than there are many others who have, if not defended this guy, agree that he shouldn't be slated for what he did. Those include pilots. I have not defended the guard except where he has been attacked. Remember he's not here to defend himself, and whatever the history, he really did not have an option.
I agree with Bronx when he said this was developing in the right direction. However the constant attempts to shift the blame to others in not helpful. If someone falls foul of this legislation, then it is they alone that are responsible.
I am pleased you didn't abuse your rank. And Z cars was still being shown on TV when I joined.
I accept I can put things badly, and I am completly open about my lack of ability to spell! But thank you for pointing it out (again!)
Perhaps this can now move on without attacking people.
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some of the spelling on PPRuNe is desperate but there is a simple solution .... write your post in something like "WORD" and run its spell check ..... then copy and paste into your reply on PPRuNe
If I see "here" instead of "hear" anymore I'm going to go crazy
(mind you a spelling check will not cure that problem
)
but there is a simple solution .... write your post in something like "WORD" and run its spell check ..... then copy and paste into your reply on PPRuNe If I see "here" instead of "hear" anymore I'm going to go crazy
(mind you a spelling check will not cure that problem
)
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Have just read the thread with interest, a mulititude of opinia indeed.
Fact is that the man broke the rules on this occasion (I have met him on many occasions), sad though that is, albeit due to oversight, other mitigating circumstances etc. we're not in a kindergarten!!!
We all know the ramifications both professionally/socially/medically of "hanging one on". The little next morning Gremlin is there for a reason!! and when he whispers, you must be prepared to accept the consequences.
I woke-up last feb. after a bike crash that left me paraplegic (thankfully no-one else involved), due to excess in blood, lost my career, my family,my dignity and worst of all, most of my friends.
My heart goes out to Capt. Nicholl but I can't condone the bitching that is taking place,
S**t happens mainly for a good reason - let it rest!
Fact is that the man broke the rules on this occasion (I have met him on many occasions), sad though that is, albeit due to oversight, other mitigating circumstances etc. we're not in a kindergarten!!!
We all know the ramifications both professionally/socially/medically of "hanging one on". The little next morning Gremlin is there for a reason!! and when he whispers, you must be prepared to accept the consequences.
I woke-up last feb. after a bike crash that left me paraplegic (thankfully no-one else involved), due to excess in blood, lost my career, my family,my dignity and worst of all, most of my friends.
My heart goes out to Capt. Nicholl but I can't condone the bitching that is taking place,
S**t happens mainly for a good reason - let it rest!
Last edited by JNX; 25th Dec 2004 at 16:59.
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bjcc
Yes, many others “have, if not defended this guy, agreed that he shouldn't be slated for what he did”, just as others have said they don’t admire or approve of what the guard did, or think he could have handled it better. The difference is everyone else has given their opinion and left it, not come back and repeated what they’ve already said. It's only a side-issue, not the central issue.
Maybe Mach79’s description ‘pontificating’ was a bit harsh, but you do come across as pronouncing your opinions as if they’re unarguable facts rather than your opinions.
If someone reads the thread and isn’t persuaded by what you’ve already said, you’re not going to persuade them to change their minds by saying the same thing again. All you achieve is sidetracking the discussion into one side-issue which helps no-one and causes irritation.
If you really can’t resist the temptation to react each time someone new criticises the guard, it would help the discussion move on if you limited yourself to something like "I disagree. I won't repeat myself, look at page n" rather than "As I have said before ...." and then saying it all over again. Repeating yourself doesn't turn your opinion into a fact. If you'd kindly co-operate, we won’t lose track of the central issues which go way beyond the facts of this one particular case.
It might help if you slowed down, and also tried to think outside the box.
eg You're sometimes so keen to disagree with people that you post without reading what they’ve actually said.
eg You don’t seem to grasp that criticising the guard doesn’t necessarily mean trying to shift the blame. If you take time to think it through, you'll should be able to see it’s possible to disapprove of what both the pilot and the guard did.
IMHO, you do (generally) give the impression of only thinking in black and white. Things aren't always that extreme, they can be both or neither. If you show you are at least trying to think outside the box, it will cause less frustration – and do wonders for your credibility.
You’ve made it very clear you’re not influenced by people asking you not to let your strong views on a side-issue spoil the discussion, and say you’re not bothered by the criticism. If you really don’t care what people think, there’s no point in posting except for personal gratification.
Yes, many others “have, if not defended this guy, agreed that he shouldn't be slated for what he did”, just as others have said they don’t admire or approve of what the guard did, or think he could have handled it better. The difference is everyone else has given their opinion and left it, not come back and repeated what they’ve already said. It's only a side-issue, not the central issue.
Maybe Mach79’s description ‘pontificating’ was a bit harsh, but you do come across as pronouncing your opinions as if they’re unarguable facts rather than your opinions.
If someone reads the thread and isn’t persuaded by what you’ve already said, you’re not going to persuade them to change their minds by saying the same thing again. All you achieve is sidetracking the discussion into one side-issue which helps no-one and causes irritation.
If you really can’t resist the temptation to react each time someone new criticises the guard, it would help the discussion move on if you limited yourself to something like "I disagree. I won't repeat myself, look at page n" rather than "As I have said before ...." and then saying it all over again. Repeating yourself doesn't turn your opinion into a fact. If you'd kindly co-operate, we won’t lose track of the central issues which go way beyond the facts of this one particular case.
It might help if you slowed down, and also tried to think outside the box.
eg You're sometimes so keen to disagree with people that you post without reading what they’ve actually said.
eg You don’t seem to grasp that criticising the guard doesn’t necessarily mean trying to shift the blame. If you take time to think it through, you'll should be able to see it’s possible to disapprove of what both the pilot and the guard did.
IMHO, you do (generally) give the impression of only thinking in black and white. Things aren't always that extreme, they can be both or neither. If you show you are at least trying to think outside the box, it will cause less frustration – and do wonders for your credibility.
You’ve made it very clear you’re not influenced by people asking you not to let your strong views on a side-issue spoil the discussion, and say you’re not bothered by the criticism. If you really don’t care what people think, there’s no point in posting except for personal gratification.
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Alchohol dependancy can creep up on someone wilthout them (or anyone else) ever realizing its happening ..... I've experienced some desperate revelations on guys I've known or worked with over the years ..... guys I've questioned for irrational behaviour accasionally, and then eventually discovering a real problem existed .....
One guy wiped out his family (wife and kids) through drinking and driving .... re-married and had another couple of kids and years later I ran into him again and he was still drinking
Another guy ..... had to be watched carefully for some of the most crazy decisions being made at times ..... "He woke up 'dead' one day, alone and totally saturated !
These were guys considered "the salt of the earth" !!!
One guy wiped out his family (wife and kids) through drinking and driving .... re-married and had another couple of kids and years later I ran into him again and he was still drinking
Another guy ..... had to be watched carefully for some of the most crazy decisions being made at times ..... "He woke up 'dead' one day, alone and totally saturated !
These were guys considered "the salt of the earth" !!!
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TSI ...... nothing at all wrong with a drink (or three) on a hot day ..... just don't take a 200 million dollar Aircraft and 400 pas off the ground eight hours later .... in fact don't do it till 24 hours later ....
I spent a good part of my life flying around the world .... been in all the bars ..... met all the guys and gals .... tried all the drinks .... on every stop ..... but those days are over .... it is (and has to be) a different world today .....
fly safely buddie
I spent a good part of my life flying around the world .... been in all the bars ..... met all the guys and gals .... tried all the drinks .... on every stop ..... but those days are over .... it is (and has to be) a different world today .....
fly safely buddie