LHR Breathtest. Update: Captain jailed
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I have in my files a document that gives a formula for calculating blood alcohol levels.
(It is not to be taken as anything other than a contribution to the debate, and above all nobody must think that it gives them a way to compute what is a safe level of drinking).
Here goes:
Blood Alcohol Concentration (BAC) equals weight of consumed alcohol in grams divided by body weight of subject in kilos multiplied by r.
r is 0.68 for a male and 0.58 for a female, being an estimate of the proportion of blood to bodyweight.
NB: the specific gravity of ethanol is, I am told, more or less .8
Now I am no scientist, but those out there who are might be able to work on the above to give us an idea of how much 13% ABV wine a 75kg man can drink to get to 20/100 in blood.
(It is not to be taken as anything other than a contribution to the debate, and above all nobody must think that it gives them a way to compute what is a safe level of drinking).
Here goes:
Blood Alcohol Concentration (BAC) equals weight of consumed alcohol in grams divided by body weight of subject in kilos multiplied by r.
r is 0.68 for a male and 0.58 for a female, being an estimate of the proportion of blood to bodyweight.
NB: the specific gravity of ethanol is, I am told, more or less .8
Now I am no scientist, but those out there who are might be able to work on the above to give us an idea of how much 13% ABV wine a 75kg man can drink to get to 20/100 in blood.
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119.5
Have you been breath tested?
Is throwing insulting comments helping? No.
It's someone elses opinon, they are entitled to it, just because it's different from yours doesn't make in B******s.
Rather than using that expression, it would be interesting to hear your considered argument.
Have you been breath tested?
Is throwing insulting comments helping? No.
It's someone elses opinon, they are entitled to it, just because it's different from yours doesn't make in B******s.
Rather than using that expression, it would be interesting to hear your considered argument.
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BJ
Not when you are 6'2 and 15 stone. BAC has a direct corellation to body fluid content, so a big guy has a higher tolerance.
Shall we move this to the GMC forum?
NN
A piece of advice, 2 pints could put you way over the drink drive limit.
Shall we move this to the GMC forum?
NN
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Simple solution - just don't drink or at least, not in the 24 hours b/4 departure (and no heavy drinking leading up to 24 hrs threshold)
Reading thru a thread on the A350 and half the posts (at the time of me reading) were all about places to go drinking
amazing
Reading thru a thread on the A350 and half the posts (at the time of me reading) were all about places to go drinking
amazing
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Go back just twenty years and this thing wouldnt have happened;simply because the crew wouldnt have allowed it to happen.Watching out for your fellow crew members(cockpit and FA's) used to be second-nature for all airline crews
These days, we check our watches and decide when it's time for the last drink. Depending on who it is, the Captain or the Purser will come down heavily on a crewmember who orders another drink after that. 20 years ago, I remember from numerous occasions, especially on long trips away to the Far East, how excessive openly consumption of alcohol was the norm for some. How we all knew about it, talked about it, worried about it and never dared say a word. The FOs used to cover for the Captain, the FEs did the same. The Pursers 'knew their place in the chain of command' and kept their mouths firmly shut, while a young FA like myself didn't even consider speaking out for fear of getting the sack.
Uninmaginable in today's climate, but that's how it was.
Not a time to hark back to at all, at least in my mind.
Having said all that, I am not quarreling with your erosion of certain social and moral values. All I'm saying is that in some instances the values prevalent in those days have been replaced by values that are perhaps less 'cosy' but in no way less safe.
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U_r,
Pretty pointless question unless you include time, I could drink wine all day and not hit 20mg%, if I did it slowly enough. Anyway, you have it the wrong way round, blood alcohol levels will be dropping in the case of somebody who stopped drinking 8 hours ago. Extrapolate back (use 15mg% per hour metabolised) and work it out from there.
Cheers bjcc, I suspect the majority are interested, shame the minority spoil it for them.
Flaps, what rules of thumb do you use?
Pretty pointless question unless you include time, I could drink wine all day and not hit 20mg%, if I did it slowly enough. Anyway, you have it the wrong way round, blood alcohol levels will be dropping in the case of somebody who stopped drinking 8 hours ago. Extrapolate back (use 15mg% per hour metabolised) and work it out from there.
Cheers bjcc, I suspect the majority are interested, shame the minority spoil it for them.
Flaps, what rules of thumb do you use?
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Accepting the figures from both U_R and S_S:
Body mass = 75kg x 0.68 = 51kg (effective mass)
Bottle = 750ml x 13% (ABV) = 97.5ml alcohol x 0.8 (SG) = 78g
So a bottle of wine would give a blood alcohol figure of 78/51 = 153, reducing to below 20 after 9 hours.
Humans can vary widely in the rate at which alcohol is absorbed and in the rate at which it's eliminated, so these figures should be treated as a very rough estimate (but look plausible, to me anyway).
Body mass = 75kg x 0.68 = 51kg (effective mass)
Bottle = 750ml x 13% (ABV) = 97.5ml alcohol x 0.8 (SG) = 78g
So a bottle of wine would give a blood alcohol figure of 78/51 = 153, reducing to below 20 after 9 hours.
Humans can vary widely in the rate at which alcohol is absorbed and in the rate at which it's eliminated, so these figures should be treated as a very rough estimate (but look plausible, to me anyway).
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Just to be a boring pedantic old sod, the captain in this case was not only over the "avaiation" limit, but over the driving limit, so waffling on about low tolerance levels is a bit pointless.
The captain also drank heavily the day before flying on an empty stomach.
Kind of puts it in perspective, but then Normal Nigel and ILS119.5 have never let facts get in the way of a good rant on PPRuNe
The captain also drank heavily the day before flying on an empty stomach.
Kind of puts it in perspective, but then Normal Nigel and ILS119.5 have never let facts get in the way of a good rant on PPRuNe
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In the Railway Industry
We are given guidance that alcohol leaves the bloodstream at the rate of one unit every hour from the time one has finished drinking.
Put simply 8 units equates to 4 pints of low alcohol beer (3.5%). Time to clear the blood stream is therefore 8 hours.
A bottle of wine I had the other night equates a glass to 1.7 units of alcohol. Therefore after 4 glasses, I had the equivalent of 6.8 units requiring me to have a clear period of 6.8 hours (say 7 hours) prior to going to work.
If the pilot was at 20 when reporting for work then you do the maths.
By the way the level in the railway industry is 20 m/g in breath.
Above this level is automatic dismissal.
The level for Police action is 80 m/g or more
Put simply 8 units equates to 4 pints of low alcohol beer (3.5%). Time to clear the blood stream is therefore 8 hours.
A bottle of wine I had the other night equates a glass to 1.7 units of alcohol. Therefore after 4 glasses, I had the equivalent of 6.8 units requiring me to have a clear period of 6.8 hours (say 7 hours) prior to going to work.
If the pilot was at 20 when reporting for work then you do the maths.
By the way the level in the railway industry is 20 m/g in breath.
Above this level is automatic dismissal.
The level for Police action is 80 m/g or more
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slim_slag, I'm mainly on short haul, where layovers are seldomly longer than 16 hours and often shorter. In practice, that doesn't give us neither the energy nor the time to do any partying. Drinking is therefore limited to one or two late in the evening before crashing into bed, or something to go with an early dinner before going to bed for a 4 AM wake-up.
The rule we use is 12 hours to flight departure.
On long haul, serious partying, like scuba diving
carries the rule "next flight at least 24 hours in the future".
The rule we use is 12 hours to flight departure.
On long haul, serious partying, like scuba diving
carries the rule "next flight at least 24 hours in the future".
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bjcc raises a good question about beer compared to wine. British ale strength varies - draught bitters (the ones I drink) range from 3.3% to 5.5% ABV, though bottled beers can be much stronger than that, some almost as strong as wine.
Taking 4% as a round figure, a pint (568ml) will contain 23ml of alcohol (2.3 'units'), so a bottle of wine is roughly equivalent to 4 pints.
I'll get me anorak ...
Taking 4% as a round figure, a pint (568ml) will contain 23ml of alcohol (2.3 'units'), so a bottle of wine is roughly equivalent to 4 pints.
I'll get me anorak ...
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Astrodome: I think you may be mixing up breath and blood limits. In a car in the uk it is 35 in breath or 80 in blood. Aviation is one quarter of that and I would not be surprised if it were the same on the railway. In many countries the BAC limit is 50 or even less.
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Whichever way this is looked at, the conclusion is primarily one of sorrow for the Captain involved.
I knew him a little. I worked with him, even had a beer with him once or twice. This morning, when five minutes into a 10 minute warm up on the treadmill, I had this shocking revelation about how truly awful it must be to wake up in jail.
I let my mind wander a little...
I'm waking up in a hotel. He's waking up in jail.
My bed is big, comfortable, warm, covered with crisp sheets, a thick doona and blankets. Light is mostly shut out by the dark curtains, and noise is not an issue.
Chaz's mattress is probably hard. It stinks, and the steel springs it sags into squeak with age. There's a threadbare, regulation issue blanket, I guess, and the noise is definately an issue. As are the inmates.
I wake up in freedom, read my book a while, then get up and go to the gym. Later, I'll have a bloody hot shower, go out and buy some great food, maybe salmon shavings and a French stick from Sainsbury's. After that, I might even go to the bookstore down by the cinema. Then again, I might not. It's my choice.
Chaz is in prison. He's not about to do any of that. Maybe he wouldn't want to. Maybe he'd like, as one 'tough guy' mentioned, to sit in a pub and talk to you face to face.
Maybe not. But either way, it's not entirely relevant anymore because he can't. He's in jail.
Which on reflection, means there's not much to be happy about here.
The 'tough guy' didn't act tougher and face Chaz down; tell him how it was; that he was "what he was". He didn't assist in doing something to fix the addiction, probably because a dose of brutal honesty would risk their friendship.
There's sorrow that a guy who had so much potential managed to get himself into such an addictive state that he became blinded to what he'd become.
There's sorrow, of course, that he almost destroyed the reputation of the airline he worked for.
Personal responsibility is a big thing. If you are rostered for a flight, you are not in a position to drink before hand. Regardless of what side of the fence you stand on with respect to this sad, sad tale of ruin, you cannot avoid the brutally honest fact that when charged with the responsibility of poling a piece of machinery from A to B, you have no right whatsoever to turn up inebriated.
You can't blame this sort of result (Chaz in jail) on second or third parties, as some are trying to do. The responsibility rests with one person, and one person alone. Good luck in your state of denial if you persist in such a profitless venture.
No-one has the right to shrug off the seriousness of the job and say, 'It's my life, my free time during the layover, and I want to party.'
You, Tough Guy, and anyone else defending the fallen from the safety of anonymity, may have to spend some time thinking about that.
Better you do it now though. Better from here than the lonely, soul-destroying perspective you will have if you are ever so unfortunate as to be viewing life from behind bars.
I'd like to write to Chaz.
He needs the support, though when he knows who I am and recalls the falling out we had, perhaps he may not want to hear from me. Never mind. I'm willing to give it a go. There's one very lonely bloke out there.
Instead of spending time flaming five foot short 120 kilogram PPRuNers, you might also like to write to him Tough Guy.
Anyone got the address?
I knew him a little. I worked with him, even had a beer with him once or twice. This morning, when five minutes into a 10 minute warm up on the treadmill, I had this shocking revelation about how truly awful it must be to wake up in jail.
I let my mind wander a little...
I'm waking up in a hotel. He's waking up in jail.
My bed is big, comfortable, warm, covered with crisp sheets, a thick doona and blankets. Light is mostly shut out by the dark curtains, and noise is not an issue.
Chaz's mattress is probably hard. It stinks, and the steel springs it sags into squeak with age. There's a threadbare, regulation issue blanket, I guess, and the noise is definately an issue. As are the inmates.
I wake up in freedom, read my book a while, then get up and go to the gym. Later, I'll have a bloody hot shower, go out and buy some great food, maybe salmon shavings and a French stick from Sainsbury's. After that, I might even go to the bookstore down by the cinema. Then again, I might not. It's my choice.
Chaz is in prison. He's not about to do any of that. Maybe he wouldn't want to. Maybe he'd like, as one 'tough guy' mentioned, to sit in a pub and talk to you face to face.
Maybe not. But either way, it's not entirely relevant anymore because he can't. He's in jail.
Which on reflection, means there's not much to be happy about here.
The 'tough guy' didn't act tougher and face Chaz down; tell him how it was; that he was "what he was". He didn't assist in doing something to fix the addiction, probably because a dose of brutal honesty would risk their friendship.
There's sorrow that a guy who had so much potential managed to get himself into such an addictive state that he became blinded to what he'd become.
There's sorrow, of course, that he almost destroyed the reputation of the airline he worked for.
Personal responsibility is a big thing. If you are rostered for a flight, you are not in a position to drink before hand. Regardless of what side of the fence you stand on with respect to this sad, sad tale of ruin, you cannot avoid the brutally honest fact that when charged with the responsibility of poling a piece of machinery from A to B, you have no right whatsoever to turn up inebriated.
You can't blame this sort of result (Chaz in jail) on second or third parties, as some are trying to do. The responsibility rests with one person, and one person alone. Good luck in your state of denial if you persist in such a profitless venture.
No-one has the right to shrug off the seriousness of the job and say, 'It's my life, my free time during the layover, and I want to party.'
You, Tough Guy, and anyone else defending the fallen from the safety of anonymity, may have to spend some time thinking about that.
Better you do it now though. Better from here than the lonely, soul-destroying perspective you will have if you are ever so unfortunate as to be viewing life from behind bars.
I'd like to write to Chaz.
He needs the support, though when he knows who I am and recalls the falling out we had, perhaps he may not want to hear from me. Never mind. I'm willing to give it a go. There's one very lonely bloke out there.
Instead of spending time flaming five foot short 120 kilogram PPRuNers, you might also like to write to him Tough Guy.
Anyone got the address?
Last edited by Life as a journey; 16th Dec 2004 at 14:11.
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slim_slag
Apologies for the delay in responding. I’ve been a little busy prosecuting a group of City fraudsters who thought they’d found a clever scam to beat the system – wrong!
I stand by what I said: the 20 mg limit is so low a pilot could easily commit this offence unintentionally.
My warning was primarily aimed at pilots who enjoy an evening’s drinking, not those who drink only a modest amount.
There has been a significant change in the law, not only because of the breathtest procedure, but because there is now a legal alcohol limit. Under the ANO, the test was whether a pilot’s capacity to act as flight crew was impaired by alcohol. (That is now the offence of 'Being Unfit for Duty'.) However, UK pilots who've spent their professional lives working under that law now have to get used (very quickly) to a new law where, if they are found with traces of alcohol in their system, they commit an offence - even if the traces are small and their ability to fly is not impaired.
Under the old law, abiding by the old rule/adage, variously expressed as 8 or 12 hours between bottle and throttle, was probably sufficient to stay legal in most cases. Not any more. There’s a significant difference between the time it takes for alcohol level to fall to the level where someone isn’t impaired by alcohol, and the time it takes to fall to 20 mg which is effectively zero for practical purposes. I think there is a real danger that some pilots could be caught out, even if they think they’ve been ‘careful’ and honesty believe they are legal.
If someone isn’t a regular drinker, the risk is correspondingly lower. eg I don’t drink much and, on average, no more than once a week so, if I go to a party and drink all evening, I get drunk quite quickly and feel rough the next morning. The ‘warning signs’ are quite clear and I know there is likely to be alcohol still in my system. Regular drinkers could drink the same amount without feeling drunk and don’t feel the warning signs next morning. They’d probably pass an ‘impairment’ test (the old law) but may end be guilty of an offence under the new law.
Figures, formulae, percentages and calculations are all very well, but few people know what a unit of alcohol means in real terms – and even fewer know how long it takes (on average) for alcohol to leave the body.
Many people make the mistake of thinking that a night's sleep after an evening's drinking session means they've 'slept it off' and start the next day 'clean'.
Most people know they'll get drunk more quickly if they drink on an empty stomache, but far fewer know the effect that not eating while or after drinkging will have on the time it takes for alcohol to leave their bloodstream.
They need to learn these things or they could pay a heavy price.
It's all very well to say that people who drink over a certain amount have a drink problem in the opinion of the Royal College of Physicians and ought to seek help but, to a non-medic, the figures are quite low and most people who drink that amount won't think they have.
I don’t claim any expertise but I think pilots who enjoy an evening's drinking would be wise to work on 24 hours between bottle and throttle – more if it was a heavy session. There’s too much to lose to take a chance.
’Well it's all entertaining stuff. Professional pilots thinking they are experts on the effects of alcohol now.’
I’m not sure what you mean by that. Surely a discussion between people from different fields is useful? Beliefs we’ve held and expressed in posts may turn out to be wrong, but someone who knows better will soon correct us. It’s a good way of learning.
”120mg% (that's legally drunk by the way)”
Where do you get that from? I’m always willing to learn.
”And if you ever get into court and try to argue the toss like what is happening on this web site you will find lots of expert witnesses of the medical variety who will testify that you are indeed a Binge Drinker.”
No they won’t. Experts wouldn’t be permitted to express such an opinion in relation to these offences.
”Judges will accept that, they like doctors, .... fellow professionals etc.”
Doctors’ opinions aren’t accepted without question. Judges are well-used to deciding between the opinions of two doctors, both claiming to give their objective expert opinion, and both expressing opposite opinions which just happen to coincide with the interests of the side which has called them to give evidence.
In conclusion, you seem to think I'm an apologist for pilots who drink heavily and then go flying. Not so. I'm simply trying to help people to avoid losing their careers and being sent to prison.
Gaza
’Of the 6 months, how long will he stay inside?’
A maximum of 3 months. There are ‘early release’ procedures in appropriate cases so it could possibly be less.
’I would also assume that he will do some of the time in a "normal" prison before being moved to an open prison???’
Yes, but usually only for a short time where a prisoner isn’t a security risk, is of previous good character and isn’t serving a long sentence for a serious offence.
In this case, the captain was sent to Wormwood Scrubs prison initially, but transferred to an open prison very quickly.
Mr Chips
”The captain in this case was not only over the "aviation" limit, but over the driving limit, so waffling on about low tolerance levels is a bit pointless.”
The discussion may nonetheless be useful if it helps other pilots realise they may find themselves guilty of an offence and in prison even though they’ve had much less to drink and believe they’re legal. (The Manchester pilot was also sentenced to six months even though his level was much lower and well below the driving limit.)
Life as a journey
Good post.
If you want to write, I have the address – e-mail me.
The new law is discussed here if anyone's interested: Link
This post has turned out to be longer than I intended. Sorry - hope it's of some help.
Tudor Owen
Apologies for the delay in responding. I’ve been a little busy prosecuting a group of City fraudsters who thought they’d found a clever scam to beat the system – wrong!
I stand by what I said: the 20 mg limit is so low a pilot could easily commit this offence unintentionally.
My warning was primarily aimed at pilots who enjoy an evening’s drinking, not those who drink only a modest amount.
There has been a significant change in the law, not only because of the breathtest procedure, but because there is now a legal alcohol limit. Under the ANO, the test was whether a pilot’s capacity to act as flight crew was impaired by alcohol. (That is now the offence of 'Being Unfit for Duty'.) However, UK pilots who've spent their professional lives working under that law now have to get used (very quickly) to a new law where, if they are found with traces of alcohol in their system, they commit an offence - even if the traces are small and their ability to fly is not impaired.
Under the old law, abiding by the old rule/adage, variously expressed as 8 or 12 hours between bottle and throttle, was probably sufficient to stay legal in most cases. Not any more. There’s a significant difference between the time it takes for alcohol level to fall to the level where someone isn’t impaired by alcohol, and the time it takes to fall to 20 mg which is effectively zero for practical purposes. I think there is a real danger that some pilots could be caught out, even if they think they’ve been ‘careful’ and honesty believe they are legal.
If someone isn’t a regular drinker, the risk is correspondingly lower. eg I don’t drink much and, on average, no more than once a week so, if I go to a party and drink all evening, I get drunk quite quickly and feel rough the next morning. The ‘warning signs’ are quite clear and I know there is likely to be alcohol still in my system. Regular drinkers could drink the same amount without feeling drunk and don’t feel the warning signs next morning. They’d probably pass an ‘impairment’ test (the old law) but may end be guilty of an offence under the new law.
Figures, formulae, percentages and calculations are all very well, but few people know what a unit of alcohol means in real terms – and even fewer know how long it takes (on average) for alcohol to leave the body.
Many people make the mistake of thinking that a night's sleep after an evening's drinking session means they've 'slept it off' and start the next day 'clean'.
Most people know they'll get drunk more quickly if they drink on an empty stomache, but far fewer know the effect that not eating while or after drinkging will have on the time it takes for alcohol to leave their bloodstream.
They need to learn these things or they could pay a heavy price.
It's all very well to say that people who drink over a certain amount have a drink problem in the opinion of the Royal College of Physicians and ought to seek help but, to a non-medic, the figures are quite low and most people who drink that amount won't think they have.
I don’t claim any expertise but I think pilots who enjoy an evening's drinking would be wise to work on 24 hours between bottle and throttle – more if it was a heavy session. There’s too much to lose to take a chance.
’Well it's all entertaining stuff. Professional pilots thinking they are experts on the effects of alcohol now.’
I’m not sure what you mean by that. Surely a discussion between people from different fields is useful? Beliefs we’ve held and expressed in posts may turn out to be wrong, but someone who knows better will soon correct us. It’s a good way of learning.
”120mg% (that's legally drunk by the way)”
Where do you get that from? I’m always willing to learn.
”And if you ever get into court and try to argue the toss like what is happening on this web site you will find lots of expert witnesses of the medical variety who will testify that you are indeed a Binge Drinker.”
No they won’t. Experts wouldn’t be permitted to express such an opinion in relation to these offences.
”Judges will accept that, they like doctors, .... fellow professionals etc.”
Doctors’ opinions aren’t accepted without question. Judges are well-used to deciding between the opinions of two doctors, both claiming to give their objective expert opinion, and both expressing opposite opinions which just happen to coincide with the interests of the side which has called them to give evidence.
In conclusion, you seem to think I'm an apologist for pilots who drink heavily and then go flying. Not so. I'm simply trying to help people to avoid losing their careers and being sent to prison.
Gaza
’Of the 6 months, how long will he stay inside?’
A maximum of 3 months. There are ‘early release’ procedures in appropriate cases so it could possibly be less.
’I would also assume that he will do some of the time in a "normal" prison before being moved to an open prison???’
Yes, but usually only for a short time where a prisoner isn’t a security risk, is of previous good character and isn’t serving a long sentence for a serious offence.
In this case, the captain was sent to Wormwood Scrubs prison initially, but transferred to an open prison very quickly.
Mr Chips
”The captain in this case was not only over the "aviation" limit, but over the driving limit, so waffling on about low tolerance levels is a bit pointless.”
The discussion may nonetheless be useful if it helps other pilots realise they may find themselves guilty of an offence and in prison even though they’ve had much less to drink and believe they’re legal. (The Manchester pilot was also sentenced to six months even though his level was much lower and well below the driving limit.)
Life as a journey
Good post.
If you want to write, I have the address – e-mail me.
The new law is discussed here if anyone's interested: Link
This post has turned out to be longer than I intended. Sorry - hope it's of some help.
Tudor Owen
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Flying Lawyer
Assuming you mean ATC/Flight crew/ etc then bravo..... well said.
And your posts are always helpful - though not always nice to hear
Well done for your input
The discussion may nonetheless be useful if it helps other pilots realise they may find themselves guilty of an offence and in prison
And your posts are always helpful - though not always nice to hear
Well done for your input