LONDON TUBE DRIVERS ON PILOTS PAY!
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whats_it_doing_now? I agree. But haven't you noticed how those who belittle our profession seem to get agitated to the extreme if you counter their argument? They seem so committed to the philosophy that we're all overpaid, under worked, and should be bonded to the hilt!! Isn't that a rather strange reaction from someone who's supposed to be in this career for real?
I sometimes wonder if those so called 'pilots' who put us down aren't actually management (or their wannabes), or embittered wind up merchants having wet dreams they know they'll never realise.
I sometimes wonder if those so called 'pilots' who put us down aren't actually management (or their wannabes), or embittered wind up merchants having wet dreams they know they'll never realise.
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Whats_it_doin-now,
WELL SAID!!!!! Anyone who thinks a Pilots job is easy either isn't doing it right or just taking the piss! Yes, i am sure there are bad apples out there but probably in lesser numbers than other careers due to the training etc. If you are lucky enough to be part of a quality outfit then for goodness sake, have a bit of pride in your job. I have the upmost respect for train drivers but i think the point of the original thread is to highlight the vast differences in pay and conditions across the Airline industry for Pilots. We don't wish to be "the best paid" or we don't think the "sun shines from our ar*es" but we are professionals who feel entitled to a fair slice of the pie.
The attitudes from some people on this thread makes me despair for the future of not only Pilots conditions but the indusrty as a whole. Jealousy is a terrible thing! If it is so easy as some seem to think, wrap up and try it, maybe your opinion will be different after a little more experience of the real world!
Sorry to harp on... rant over!!
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Gentleman, less haste more speed!
WELL SAID!!!!! Anyone who thinks a Pilots job is easy either isn't doing it right or just taking the piss! Yes, i am sure there are bad apples out there but probably in lesser numbers than other careers due to the training etc. If you are lucky enough to be part of a quality outfit then for goodness sake, have a bit of pride in your job. I have the upmost respect for train drivers but i think the point of the original thread is to highlight the vast differences in pay and conditions across the Airline industry for Pilots. We don't wish to be "the best paid" or we don't think the "sun shines from our ar*es" but we are professionals who feel entitled to a fair slice of the pie.
The attitudes from some people on this thread makes me despair for the future of not only Pilots conditions but the indusrty as a whole. Jealousy is a terrible thing! If it is so easy as some seem to think, wrap up and try it, maybe your opinion will be different after a little more experience of the real world!
Sorry to harp on... rant over!!
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Gentleman, less haste more speed!
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Hmmm, so its not just me who notices people who seamingly shoot themselves relentlessly in the foot on pprune. Point taken - how can they be so stupid without another agenda? Anyway, we have a better view of london than the tube drivers have!
[This message has been edited by whats_it_doing_now? (edited 24 March 2001).]
[This message has been edited by whats_it_doing_now? (edited 24 March 2001).]
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First of all, I can't think of any job with more responsibility for human life than an airline pilot, second, as a pilot you are in command of a vehicle worth upwards of $200 million dollars!!! do you actually think you should pay this person "average wages" also pilots have to master two aspects of the job, the book knowledge, and then actually have to apply it practically..In the military I knew alot of guys who knew the books inside and out, yet turned to jelly in the jet! Lastly, every person who believes flying is easy, do what I did, I take them to a real simulator( during my Air Force days, this wasnt too hard) and I let them fly, every one came out with an enormous amount of respect for pilots..Tango November, Stay on the ground, your poor attitude, ranks you among those poor timid souls who know not great victory nor bitter defeat!!!!
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Good discussion!
With regard to salaries, the only figure worth looking at is the "mode". The mode is the area in which the majority of any given number lies. So if you think of a bell curve representing the earnings of a population, the mode would be the top of the bell, where the majority of people earn money. Means are distorted (as has been said) by the fact that there are people out there who earn shed-loads of dosh. Imagine how the total earnings of Manchester FC distort the curve. Just to name one area.
If you were to look at the mode of pilot earnings in a given country, I think the average punter would be amazed. The award wage for a commercial pilot in Australia is less than some menial jobs. Refuellers (for some companies) earn more than an F/O's basic wage (in some companies). Baggage handlers in Sydney can earn 60k. Now compare that to a pilot flying aeromedical ops in a single pilot King Air in IMC. Where is the logic there?
It would be nice if the mode of pilot earnings could be raised somewhat - this would help the "brain drain" from smaller operations to the big airlines. How can this be achieved? Any thoughts?
With regard to salaries, the only figure worth looking at is the "mode". The mode is the area in which the majority of any given number lies. So if you think of a bell curve representing the earnings of a population, the mode would be the top of the bell, where the majority of people earn money. Means are distorted (as has been said) by the fact that there are people out there who earn shed-loads of dosh. Imagine how the total earnings of Manchester FC distort the curve. Just to name one area.
If you were to look at the mode of pilot earnings in a given country, I think the average punter would be amazed. The award wage for a commercial pilot in Australia is less than some menial jobs. Refuellers (for some companies) earn more than an F/O's basic wage (in some companies). Baggage handlers in Sydney can earn 60k. Now compare that to a pilot flying aeromedical ops in a single pilot King Air in IMC. Where is the logic there?
It would be nice if the mode of pilot earnings could be raised somewhat - this would help the "brain drain" from smaller operations to the big airlines. How can this be achieved? Any thoughts?
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You're all paid what you are worth. Stop bitching. If you want more money, get a new job, if you don't want a new job, do something about it. I like planes and trains, but don't want to drive either of them. For me to do either would be a major backwards step financially, and anyway, I like my job.
Quit bitching about responsiblity. Don't ATC and engineers carry as much? Being a pilot is no longer the glamour job it was. Get used to it. Some spotty geek into computers can earn more through IT than by becoming a pilot, so why shouldn't he?
I like my job and it pays well, so I'm not moaning, but if I wanted to moan, I'd bet off my @rse and get another job - like I have done in the past.
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Gimme a bottle of anything, and a glazed donut......TO GO!
Quit bitching about responsiblity. Don't ATC and engineers carry as much? Being a pilot is no longer the glamour job it was. Get used to it. Some spotty geek into computers can earn more through IT than by becoming a pilot, so why shouldn't he?
I like my job and it pays well, so I'm not moaning, but if I wanted to moan, I'd bet off my @rse and get another job - like I have done in the past.
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Gimme a bottle of anything, and a glazed donut......TO GO!
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I'm currently in I.T. (although not spotty.). I don't mean to tread on anyone’s toes by posting here without yet having stripes on my arm, but as the point has been made throughout the forum - "it's all about supply and demand". I agree you don't get paid nearly enough, but there are several thousand 'wannabes' who are willing (and qualified) to step into your shoes (for less money) if you don't want your job. I can't think of any other profession where supply outweighs demand to such an extent - try as I might, I haven't yet been able to find the "wannabes" subway drivers forum. I certainly don’t have people queuing up for my job.
Face it – you have chosen one of those jobs that people just want to do, despite the “grass not being greener” when you finally get there. If your still in any doubt, try going to the Wannabes forum and posting a Topic entitled “Who wants my job for 50% of my Salary”. I suspect the number of responses will also be higher than your salary.
Apologies again if I cause offence, but for God’s sake, I know people who have sold just about every possession they own just to get the opportunity of some day doing what you do – and it isn’t for the money. Would you swap your flying career for an office job paying twice the salary?
There will always be people earning more money than you do, it has nothing to do with responsibility or qualifications or anything like that (although it should) – the nurse who delivers your baby will probably earn less than the guy who delivers your mail - now THAT is a just cause for complaint!
Face it – you have chosen one of those jobs that people just want to do, despite the “grass not being greener” when you finally get there. If your still in any doubt, try going to the Wannabes forum and posting a Topic entitled “Who wants my job for 50% of my Salary”. I suspect the number of responses will also be higher than your salary.
Apologies again if I cause offence, but for God’s sake, I know people who have sold just about every possession they own just to get the opportunity of some day doing what you do – and it isn’t for the money. Would you swap your flying career for an office job paying twice the salary?
There will always be people earning more money than you do, it has nothing to do with responsibility or qualifications or anything like that (although it should) – the nurse who delivers your baby will probably earn less than the guy who delivers your mail - now THAT is a just cause for complaint!
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Ahh, Clunk, at last, after reading through five pages of people saying the same two arguments, you have hit it right on the head.
It's not how much money these people earn at all, it's how much other people earn in comparison and how that relates to their self image.
"I earn less than a common or garden train driver, therefore, society will perceive that train driver to be more important and/or skilled than I, and I am peeved about that."
Translation: I've made it to the point that you other poor slobs all dream about, therefore I demand recognition for it, and monetary reward is the socially appropriate way to display that.
"It has cost me X million pounds/roubles to train myself to this level, therefore I should be paid more to reflect that."
Translation: "I am really, really p!ssed off that people can earn more money than I do without having to fork out lots to get it."
In truth, the answer to both of those arguments lies, as you and many others have pointed out, in Capitalism 101; supply and demand. All Airline pilots currently earning multi moola started off at the bottom, starved, flew for nothing to get up hours, disregarded safety regulations and generally prostituted themselves to achieve the golden dream. They have done the hard yards, survived the system, flown a lot of buttock clenching Single Pilot IFR charters under horrendous company pressure in frightful weather conditions and survived, and feel they have deserved what they have achieved. Fair enough.
But if they hadn't made it, there are THOUSANDS of others who possess the same skills and would have also made it had they been given the chance. Supply and demand dictates they don't get that chance, and many of them are still flying the same high performance twins single pilot in sh!tty weather that they always have. I wonder who has it easier?
Look, folks, I'm a controller. An average controller with no tickets on myself. It's my chosen career, and I thank the Lord I got into it. I will never be rich, but I am grateful that I won't starve either. I look at the poor sods digging ditches in the heat on my way to work and wonder why they are getting paid a quarter of what I do, then I look at the financial pages and see the crooked company directors voting themselves option packages worth millions upon millions, and I wonder again.
If you're looking for justice, forget it; it doesn't exist. Flying pays crap till you get into the top echelons because there are thousands of others who can and will do it for less than you. Don't take it personally.
[This message has been edited by Binoculars (edited 26 March 2001).]
It's not how much money these people earn at all, it's how much other people earn in comparison and how that relates to their self image.
"I earn less than a common or garden train driver, therefore, society will perceive that train driver to be more important and/or skilled than I, and I am peeved about that."
Translation: I've made it to the point that you other poor slobs all dream about, therefore I demand recognition for it, and monetary reward is the socially appropriate way to display that.
"It has cost me X million pounds/roubles to train myself to this level, therefore I should be paid more to reflect that."
Translation: "I am really, really p!ssed off that people can earn more money than I do without having to fork out lots to get it."
In truth, the answer to both of those arguments lies, as you and many others have pointed out, in Capitalism 101; supply and demand. All Airline pilots currently earning multi moola started off at the bottom, starved, flew for nothing to get up hours, disregarded safety regulations and generally prostituted themselves to achieve the golden dream. They have done the hard yards, survived the system, flown a lot of buttock clenching Single Pilot IFR charters under horrendous company pressure in frightful weather conditions and survived, and feel they have deserved what they have achieved. Fair enough.
But if they hadn't made it, there are THOUSANDS of others who possess the same skills and would have also made it had they been given the chance. Supply and demand dictates they don't get that chance, and many of them are still flying the same high performance twins single pilot in sh!tty weather that they always have. I wonder who has it easier?
Look, folks, I'm a controller. An average controller with no tickets on myself. It's my chosen career, and I thank the Lord I got into it. I will never be rich, but I am grateful that I won't starve either. I look at the poor sods digging ditches in the heat on my way to work and wonder why they are getting paid a quarter of what I do, then I look at the financial pages and see the crooked company directors voting themselves option packages worth millions upon millions, and I wonder again.
If you're looking for justice, forget it; it doesn't exist. Flying pays crap till you get into the top echelons because there are thousands of others who can and will do it for less than you. Don't take it personally.
[This message has been edited by Binoculars (edited 26 March 2001).]
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Just wonder how many of you socialist pilots out there would accept a job with a major airline in the US at a considerable pay raise. You guys in the UK are being screwed by your companies and your unions. In addition, your profession over there is terribly fragmented by kool-aid drinking twits who say you're already paid enough. Until you guys wake up, you're going to be treated like third world labor by both your company and unions.
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My thing as regards pay isn't what pilots get compared with other professions, but the inconcistency across the industry, as highlighted by roadtrip.
I don't have a problem with the self image my job creates, I don't care what anyone else thinks, i know its the best job out there and that's all that matters to me.
It's way better than battling the commuter chaos on the tube to get to the same crappy air conditioned windowless office to sit and stare at the same crappy computer sneaking a look at pprune when the boss isn't looking before finnishing work at 8pm battling the same crappy commuter chaos home and then going to bed and getting up tomorrow to do it all again. When its probably raining. You can keep your megabucks, its all about job satisfaction for me! I get a huge kick out of the adrenaline buzz a day at 'the office' gives me and the view out of the window is a damn sight better too. However a payrise would be nice!
I don't have a problem with the self image my job creates, I don't care what anyone else thinks, i know its the best job out there and that's all that matters to me.
It's way better than battling the commuter chaos on the tube to get to the same crappy air conditioned windowless office to sit and stare at the same crappy computer sneaking a look at pprune when the boss isn't looking before finnishing work at 8pm battling the same crappy commuter chaos home and then going to bed and getting up tomorrow to do it all again. When its probably raining. You can keep your megabucks, its all about job satisfaction for me! I get a huge kick out of the adrenaline buzz a day at 'the office' gives me and the view out of the window is a damn sight better too. However a payrise would be nice!
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WIDN-
Glad you like flying for a living. It's good to make a profession out of something you like. But, that being said, if you don't forcefully stand up for yourself, you're going to be exploited by management. As in any leadership endeavor, it you're expectations are low, that's exactly what you'll get. If so that's fine for you, but what about the guy sitting beside you that expects to be paid industry standard?? It really is all about MONEY. Money in terms of pay scale, time off, schedules, etc. In the aviation industry, if you're not unionized, you're crazy. That is, assuming that you have a good union - and evidently, from what I've read on PPRUNE, BALPA senior leadership seems to be in bed with management. And even then, the world's "standard" airline, BA, can't seem to make a profit, even in these good economic times. BALPA need to get some power and clout and make BA management compete successfully. Right now with Atlas Air, it's common knowledge that the company is on the road towards it's self-destruction and maybe it's only hope is that the union will force management to stop squandering money down ratholes, get efficient, and earn loyalty from its employees. Indeed, as funny as it may sound, it will probably be the union that saves Atlas Air. What the heck is going on over there? Wake-up guys!
[This message has been edited by Roadtrip (edited 26 March 2001).]
Glad you like flying for a living. It's good to make a profession out of something you like. But, that being said, if you don't forcefully stand up for yourself, you're going to be exploited by management. As in any leadership endeavor, it you're expectations are low, that's exactly what you'll get. If so that's fine for you, but what about the guy sitting beside you that expects to be paid industry standard?? It really is all about MONEY. Money in terms of pay scale, time off, schedules, etc. In the aviation industry, if you're not unionized, you're crazy. That is, assuming that you have a good union - and evidently, from what I've read on PPRUNE, BALPA senior leadership seems to be in bed with management. And even then, the world's "standard" airline, BA, can't seem to make a profit, even in these good economic times. BALPA need to get some power and clout and make BA management compete successfully. Right now with Atlas Air, it's common knowledge that the company is on the road towards it's self-destruction and maybe it's only hope is that the union will force management to stop squandering money down ratholes, get efficient, and earn loyalty from its employees. Indeed, as funny as it may sound, it will probably be the union that saves Atlas Air. What the heck is going on over there? Wake-up guys!
[This message has been edited by Roadtrip (edited 26 March 2001).]
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Twistedenginestarter,
I was refering to the price of a 747-400 or one of the new A-380's, (list price that is)
And for your info I fly for UPS...an extremeley large fleet of jets most of which are brand new 757,767,A-300,and a smattering of MD-11's along with the old standby 727,and DC-8's trust me its not a motely collection of flying junk. My 727 has GPS, HUD, and EFIS
Clunk,
Many of you have referred to Capiltalism 101, as it pertains to pilots earning salaries commensurate with their worth. This doesn't really apply here, heres the reason: For every baseball player on the New York Yankee's there is a person out there who would do their job for free!!while this is true would you pay to see them? Just because people are clammoring to fly doesnt mean they are necessarily qualified, or that they are the best qualified for the job...I think in Europe you guys have a vastly differnt view of what it takes to fly for the majors..maybe because its not unheard of for some young pilot to be hired at a major with a few hundred hours. In the US you have to have a minimum of 5000 hours as a civilian pilot, or be a military pilot. Most Americans do respect pilots alot, and if you want to start an airline and pay pilots crap, like Valu-jet etc, you may reap what you sow in terms of accidents and incidents. Also the fact that pilots can't leave one airline, and start at another at the same pay and seniority throws the whole Capitalism 101 argument out the window. We are in a strange profession, perhaps summed up best by an old friend who said..."Flying, its a great job, but a lousy profession!
I was refering to the price of a 747-400 or one of the new A-380's, (list price that is)
And for your info I fly for UPS...an extremeley large fleet of jets most of which are brand new 757,767,A-300,and a smattering of MD-11's along with the old standby 727,and DC-8's trust me its not a motely collection of flying junk. My 727 has GPS, HUD, and EFIS
Clunk,
Many of you have referred to Capiltalism 101, as it pertains to pilots earning salaries commensurate with their worth. This doesn't really apply here, heres the reason: For every baseball player on the New York Yankee's there is a person out there who would do their job for free!!while this is true would you pay to see them? Just because people are clammoring to fly doesnt mean they are necessarily qualified, or that they are the best qualified for the job...I think in Europe you guys have a vastly differnt view of what it takes to fly for the majors..maybe because its not unheard of for some young pilot to be hired at a major with a few hundred hours. In the US you have to have a minimum of 5000 hours as a civilian pilot, or be a military pilot. Most Americans do respect pilots alot, and if you want to start an airline and pay pilots crap, like Valu-jet etc, you may reap what you sow in terms of accidents and incidents. Also the fact that pilots can't leave one airline, and start at another at the same pay and seniority throws the whole Capitalism 101 argument out the window. We are in a strange profession, perhaps summed up best by an old friend who said..."Flying, its a great job, but a lousy profession!
Guest
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">You're all paid what you are worth. Stop bitching. If you want more money, get a new job, if you don't want a new job, do something about it. I like planes and trains, but don't want to drive either of them. For me to do either would be a major backwards step financially, and anyway, I like my job.
Quit bitching about responsiblity. Don't ATC and engineers carry as much? Being a pilot is no longer the glamour job it was. Get used to it. Some spotty geek into computers can earn more through IT than by becoming a pilot, so why shouldn't he?
I like my job and it pays well, so I'm not moaning, but if I wanted to moan, I'd bet off my @rse and get another job - like I have done in the past.</font>
Quit bitching about responsiblity. Don't ATC and engineers carry as much? Being a pilot is no longer the glamour job it was. Get used to it. Some spotty geek into computers can earn more through IT than by becoming a pilot, so why shouldn't he?
I like my job and it pays well, so I'm not moaning, but if I wanted to moan, I'd bet off my @rse and get another job - like I have done in the past.</font>
It is beautiful in it's simplicity. It reminds us of the obvious, which is this;
There is no one who will champion your cause but yourselves. If you have accepted the populist view of your net worth, you are defeated already. Stand firm. Ignore their taunts. Let them howl at the moon.
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Cones etc and Mr Sensible, I can understand why you post what you do. I also believe that people are given the power of free choice, so if something isn't working for you, change your situation.
But don't you see that what you are doing is stating the bleeding obvious?
Most people in this forum would understand the concept of free choice, but this forum is here for people to communicate about a common topic - aviation. You are doing the equivalent of sitting way over there on your fence and taking potshots at people that merely want to discuss things that affect them. You could probably post replies like yours in almost every thread on this site - what is the point?
Give people some credit for having the intelligence to have already worked out what you are pontificating, and maybe that way a constructive answer may come out of the discussion. QED.
But don't you see that what you are doing is stating the bleeding obvious?
Most people in this forum would understand the concept of free choice, but this forum is here for people to communicate about a common topic - aviation. You are doing the equivalent of sitting way over there on your fence and taking potshots at people that merely want to discuss things that affect them. You could probably post replies like yours in almost every thread on this site - what is the point?
Give people some credit for having the intelligence to have already worked out what you are pontificating, and maybe that way a constructive answer may come out of the discussion. QED.
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">as a pilot you are in command of a vehicle worth upwards of $200 million dollars!!!</font>
Boeing quote 183-215 million dollars for a brand new 747. The Airbus is as yet a figment of our collective imagination.
Thus what you meant to say was
as a pilot you are in command of a vehicle worth downwards of $200 million dollars!!! ...considerably downwards
According to Discovery Channel the average value of a jet liner is 19 million. Not sure how they know but this compares with the 24 miilion brand new cost of a Eurostar.
Guest
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Sorry to drag this old cherry up again, but...
a colleague has an ex-partner who drives Eurostars, top of the ladder on £42000 p.a. - but get this - she claims Virgin are a major shareholder in Eurostar and that he gets ID90 flights because of this - never can be, can it???
a colleague has an ex-partner who drives Eurostars, top of the ladder on £42000 p.a. - but get this - she claims Virgin are a major shareholder in Eurostar and that he gets ID90 flights because of this - never can be, can it???
Guest
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Oh what fun. Thought I might add two penneths.
First a response to the capitalism 101 line which many contributors advocate. Allow me to point out the fundamentaly cyclical nature of the industry historically. This led to a monster recession in the early nineties with a pool of experience so deep that all the carriers (in Europe at least) gave up on training.
Problem is with the resurgence in profits and growth there is a big fat gaping hole in the experience pool. Just look at all the adds for commanders in Flight! In spite of the persistent view of some contributors that all we do all day is drink coffee and stare at/push the odd button; there is no substitute for experience. I'm just about to start my third summer of I.T. flying, but I got this job from a standing start and I know I'm not ready for a command yet. Those of you who keep pointing out the pool of self financed wannabees over my shoulder; thanks, I remember my years there. But I'm not exaggerating when I say I would refuse to put my wife and children on a shiny 100 ton push button jet if I knew the commander only had 1000TT, even if it was all on type. I repeat, there's no substitute for experience. This means that those who have it deserve to be renumerated appropriately.
At least it does according to capitalism 101.
So all of us must be in line for these 30% pay rises I keep reading about here then? Yeah right. And why not? Well probably because as other posters have noted we airline jocks aren't famous for our militancy. We may not be millionairs but most of us are comfortable enough and, I fear, that comfort makes us forgetful. Why else would anyone tolerate the introduction of 'B' scales into their company.
Maybe I'm being too dramatic but I reckon this could be a crucial time for the long term future of our profession. For the first time in decades we have the kind of leverage that capitalism 101 confers. Do we use it to feather our own nests? Do we use it to make sure the self financers get a fair deal? Do we use it at all?
Right I'm off to join the Labour party....Doh
First a response to the capitalism 101 line which many contributors advocate. Allow me to point out the fundamentaly cyclical nature of the industry historically. This led to a monster recession in the early nineties with a pool of experience so deep that all the carriers (in Europe at least) gave up on training.
Problem is with the resurgence in profits and growth there is a big fat gaping hole in the experience pool. Just look at all the adds for commanders in Flight! In spite of the persistent view of some contributors that all we do all day is drink coffee and stare at/push the odd button; there is no substitute for experience. I'm just about to start my third summer of I.T. flying, but I got this job from a standing start and I know I'm not ready for a command yet. Those of you who keep pointing out the pool of self financed wannabees over my shoulder; thanks, I remember my years there. But I'm not exaggerating when I say I would refuse to put my wife and children on a shiny 100 ton push button jet if I knew the commander only had 1000TT, even if it was all on type. I repeat, there's no substitute for experience. This means that those who have it deserve to be renumerated appropriately.
At least it does according to capitalism 101.
So all of us must be in line for these 30% pay rises I keep reading about here then? Yeah right. And why not? Well probably because as other posters have noted we airline jocks aren't famous for our militancy. We may not be millionairs but most of us are comfortable enough and, I fear, that comfort makes us forgetful. Why else would anyone tolerate the introduction of 'B' scales into their company.
Maybe I'm being too dramatic but I reckon this could be a crucial time for the long term future of our profession. For the first time in decades we have the kind of leverage that capitalism 101 confers. Do we use it to feather our own nests? Do we use it to make sure the self financers get a fair deal? Do we use it at all?
Right I'm off to join the Labour party....Doh