BA reject pilot's pay proposal.
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Don't know about the seagulls but in flight ops its 10 days amonth (source BALPA) for flying staff.
The reason the flight ops figure from the company is higher is that it included ground based flight ops staff who are off more than the pilots.
NN
seagulls Staff you have to throw stones at to make them fly (or Far East allowances)
The reason the flight ops figure from the company is higher is that it included ground based flight ops staff who are off more than the pilots.
NN
seagulls Staff you have to throw stones at to make them fly (or Far East allowances)
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Hold on people, let Heavy Crew have his/her say. HC is expressing views that are expressed on the other side of the flight deck door. Heavy Crew is giving time and effort on this forum to enable us to either modify our behaviour (to try and change opinions) or at least give us an insight to what is happening behind us. Let's face it, most of BA cabin crew don't give us the time of day. HC is actually trying to make a difference and I salute them for it. Don't shoot HC down just because one does agree with what they are saying.
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Maxy101 my flight crew figures come from BALPA (note that they are 1.8 days lower than the overall flight ops average - makes you wonder just how many days off sick the ground staff in flight ops take). The cabin crew figures come from BA management admittedly, but are the ones widely publicised on the "Vicious Circle /Virtual Circle" diagrams posted around various company locations!
Airbus girl. Our cabin crew only start on a basic of about £10K pa, which is where Heavy Crew gets his quaint belief that BA pay less than everyone else. Unfortunately the maths comes rather unstuck when trying to explain how people seem to take home at least £1200 per month on short haul after tax, without overtime or CAT payments (thats £35 quid to reduce your turnaround at LHR below 2 hours). Seems to be healthily more than most of our competitors are paying or they wouldn't be breaking down the doors to apply.
Airbus girl. Our cabin crew only start on a basic of about £10K pa, which is where Heavy Crew gets his quaint belief that BA pay less than everyone else. Unfortunately the maths comes rather unstuck when trying to explain how people seem to take home at least £1200 per month on short haul after tax, without overtime or CAT payments (thats £35 quid to reduce your turnaround at LHR below 2 hours). Seems to be healthily more than most of our competitors are paying or they wouldn't be breaking down the doors to apply.
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The pay scales both old and new are on the links my posting on the previous page.
A CSD who joined in 1996 and has just made the gradeafter 8 years (about the minimum to get it for longhaul.) will get £32208 basic.
Add to that allowances (LH) and you can't fail to gross £50000 pa-at the very least. Thats for a chief steward at the lowest paypoint they could realistically be at.And BA think they can hit a 10% operating margin?
£50000 no qualifications needed. Look in the Times and see what you need to earn that. Nothing they can say can justify this.
Alsoas I said before unless its in their interests a large proportion of these people would rather go home after a phone call to BASSA than go to work. Its a shambles and it needs sorting out.
I suggest a recruitment drive for a waitlist followed by a big reduction in wages for many. If they don't like it sack em and replace with the new people.
NN
A CSD who joined in 1996 and has just made the gradeafter 8 years (about the minimum to get it for longhaul.) will get £32208 basic.
Add to that allowances (LH) and you can't fail to gross £50000 pa-at the very least. Thats for a chief steward at the lowest paypoint they could realistically be at.And BA think they can hit a 10% operating margin?
£50000 no qualifications needed. Look in the Times and see what you need to earn that. Nothing they can say can justify this.
Alsoas I said before unless its in their interests a large proportion of these people would rather go home after a phone call to BASSA than go to work. Its a shambles and it needs sorting out.
I suggest a recruitment drive for a waitlist followed by a big reduction in wages for many. If they don't like it sack em and replace with the new people.
NN
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Hey Normal_Nigel, maybe they could do that with the pilots too. *
After all most of you earn above the industry average
*Sarcasm for those that don't recognise it
After all most of you earn above the industry average
*Sarcasm for those that don't recognise it
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Talking of BA crews' pay and conditions and saying, "Its a shambles and it needs sorting out" simply takes us back to the beginning of this vicious circle. BA staff thrive on the logic that 'those over there are paid too much and should be sorted out, while us here are underpaid for what we do and should get more'.
I believe it can be fair to say that if a Chief Sandwich Dispenser (CSD) can be paid up to 50K for what is an unskilled job, then is not the entire workforce being overpaid!?
Spinning and spinning in circles??????!!!!
I believe it can be fair to say that if a Chief Sandwich Dispenser (CSD) can be paid up to 50K for what is an unskilled job, then is not the entire workforce being overpaid!?
Spinning and spinning in circles??????!!!!
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I believe it can be fair to say that if a Chief Sandwich Dispenser (CSD) can be paid up to 50K for what is an unskilled job, then is not the entire workforce being overpaid!?
Cabin crew (certainly on higher grades) are grossly overpaid in BA. Anyone who disagrees with that is either blind or thick. £50000 for a steward who changes the videos and hands out landing cards is overpaid in any language.
BA pilots are paid a comprable salary to our major European competitors but work about 10% harder.** We were benchmarked.
In fact don't Ryanair pilots earn more than us for a comparable length of service? Certainly in the first 5 years or so I think they do?
Jerry
They could replace us if they could find 3500 type rated(5 different types) experienced pilots. Stewards they can get from anywhere and train in about 3 weeks.
**Source BALPA benchmarking group.
NN
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Mate of mine who I learn't to fly with works for Ryan Air, last year he netted £18,000 more than me and flew 79 more hours................... good cash if you can get it.
Alright will concede I get a pension(or do I?) I get LOL and health care, but jesus think how much of a pension I could get for that extra £1500 per month!!
Alright will concede I get a pension(or do I?) I get LOL and health care, but jesus think how much of a pension I could get for that extra £1500 per month!!
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normal_nigel - "They could replace us if they could find 3500 type rated(5 different types) experienced pilots." Is this not what BA is steering towards, i.e cheap(er) replacements? And for those already on a contract isn't the aim to increase and improve productivity? Was this not the underlying reason for the recent pilot demonstrations in Luxembourg?
Believe me that the overall 'back office' and management attitude towards flight crews is 'work 'em harder, pay 'em less...'
Believe me that the overall 'back office' and management attitude towards flight crews is 'work 'em harder, pay 'em less...'
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NN
What to say mate,50 K for a CSD bloody right thats too much ---
Up to 120K plus expenses flying a bus around Europe some would say thats excessive as well,its ok benchmarking if you pick the airlines to compare with,who says Air france pilots arnt overpaid to start with and while i cant support the CSDs pay there are only a few of them where as 1/2 the pilots are captains.
Who says theres an automatic right to benchmarking? you and i both know numerous airlines that would say " if you think Air France pay more P*** off there " --- Thats what BA told us engineering types by the way!
What to say mate,50 K for a CSD bloody right thats too much ---
Up to 120K plus expenses flying a bus around Europe some would say thats excessive as well,its ok benchmarking if you pick the airlines to compare with,who says Air france pilots arnt overpaid to start with and while i cant support the CSDs pay there are only a few of them where as 1/2 the pilots are captains.
Who says theres an automatic right to benchmarking? you and i both know numerous airlines that would say " if you think Air France pay more P*** off there " --- Thats what BA told us engineering types by the way!
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Well That’s Me, wrong yet again about pilot remuneration!
120K plus expenses, should read 100K plus expenses and that’s taken 24 years to achieve, most Captains on the "bus" fleet are PP9 to PP15 earning considerably less than my correct figure above.
Only a few CSD's........ Beg to differ, remember the top pay scale for those who joined pre 97 comes at just PP18 at last count there was well over 1200 with this role.
PS there are just over 1800 Captains
120K plus expenses, should read 100K plus expenses and that’s taken 24 years to achieve, most Captains on the "bus" fleet are PP9 to PP15 earning considerably less than my correct figure above.
Only a few CSD's........ Beg to differ, remember the top pay scale for those who joined pre 97 comes at just PP18 at last count there was well over 1200 with this role.
PS there are just over 1800 Captains
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ok
What do you think pilots should get paid? £20000, £30000pa? My mate who is a barrister and has trained and spent time working up his profession (almost identical time to me) earns £265000 pa.
He doesn't sign for an aircraft with $2 billion of liability as every BA captain does every day at work. And neither do you so don't be bitter about pilots pay just because you don't earn it.
ps I earned about £50000 less than your figures last year.
NN
What do you think pilots should get paid? £20000, £30000pa? My mate who is a barrister and has trained and spent time working up his profession (almost identical time to me) earns £265000 pa.
He doesn't sign for an aircraft with $2 billion of liability as every BA captain does every day at work. And neither do you so don't be bitter about pilots pay just because you don't earn it.
ps I earned about £50000 less than your figures last year.
NN
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NN
Quote
He doesn't sign for an aircraft with $2 billion of liability as every BA captain does every day at work. And neither do you
--- i will correct you there,i sign for the aircraft with $2 billion worth of liability every day,fact is i sign for it and could be up in the same court as you arguing the toss with your mate ---- so stand corrected.
Regards Pilots pay sorry your 50K down on the figure i quoted,just stay around you will get there,its just a case of waiting.
Your mate thats a barister is obviously smarter than me,hes obviously smarter than you and the training is a lot harder in the law profession thats why he gets paid more.
Regarding benchmarking - why didnt Air France / KLM etc say to their crews " BA pilots get paid less,we are benchmarking you with them - heres your pay cut / freeze" --- you know the reason!
NN - I am not bitter about your pay and thats a honest reply but you cant honestly knock any other group especially a minority group that are doing ok as well, BA pilots are well paid - Well done, enjoy it.
Quote
He doesn't sign for an aircraft with $2 billion of liability as every BA captain does every day at work. And neither do you
--- i will correct you there,i sign for the aircraft with $2 billion worth of liability every day,fact is i sign for it and could be up in the same court as you arguing the toss with your mate ---- so stand corrected.
Regards Pilots pay sorry your 50K down on the figure i quoted,just stay around you will get there,its just a case of waiting.
Your mate thats a barister is obviously smarter than me,hes obviously smarter than you and the training is a lot harder in the law profession thats why he gets paid more.
Regarding benchmarking - why didnt Air France / KLM etc say to their crews " BA pilots get paid less,we are benchmarking you with them - heres your pay cut / freeze" --- you know the reason!
NN - I am not bitter about your pay and thats a honest reply but you cant honestly knock any other group especially a minority group that are doing ok as well, BA pilots are well paid - Well done, enjoy it.
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,hes obviously smarter than you and the training is a lot harder in the law profession thats why he gets paid more.
Now answer my question. What do you think pilots should be paid? (a tube driver gets about £40000 pa I'm told).
Engineers do a crucial important job but they aint there when the **** hits the fan in flight.
NN
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NN
If you have the same of better qualifications than your mate then you are wasted as a BA pilot ( IMHO ),what should a Pilot for a major carrier get, disregarding market forces etc and for my 10p worth i would have said 80 - 90 K would be fair for a Captain and 2/3 that for a F/O,those figures would be after say 4 years not 24 and would be the same for a 747 captain to a A320.
Tube drivers actually get nearer 60K as they get hazard pay.
I guess it boils down to why does anyone get paid what they do,for yourselves its market forces NOT responsibility that dictate it - dont get me wrong here i think all the front line staff deserve lots more than the faceless suits that dictate our lives and dare i say bleed BA of the profit it could posibly make.
Let me return the question to you and say " Why do you think you deserve to be very very well paid? "
I have no gripe with your pay but being paid and treated as the low of the low ( i have a university degree as well ) i find it hard to accept the " we deserve better " argument from BA pilots.
quote
Engineers do a crucial important job but they aint there when the **** hits the fan in flight.
True we affect safety but not our own personal safety,that is one of the reasons you are paid more than engineers.
If you have the same of better qualifications than your mate then you are wasted as a BA pilot ( IMHO ),what should a Pilot for a major carrier get, disregarding market forces etc and for my 10p worth i would have said 80 - 90 K would be fair for a Captain and 2/3 that for a F/O,those figures would be after say 4 years not 24 and would be the same for a 747 captain to a A320.
Tube drivers actually get nearer 60K as they get hazard pay.
I guess it boils down to why does anyone get paid what they do,for yourselves its market forces NOT responsibility that dictate it - dont get me wrong here i think all the front line staff deserve lots more than the faceless suits that dictate our lives and dare i say bleed BA of the profit it could posibly make.
Let me return the question to you and say " Why do you think you deserve to be very very well paid? "
I have no gripe with your pay but being paid and treated as the low of the low ( i have a university degree as well ) i find it hard to accept the " we deserve better " argument from BA pilots.
quote
Engineers do a crucial important job but they aint there when the **** hits the fan in flight.
True we affect safety but not our own personal safety,that is one of the reasons you are paid more than engineers.
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I just think BA captains should earn about the same. Yes I am being serious.
Seriously though it is never going to happen. Your barrister friends company makes a lot of money from legal work and the rewards are shared amongst a relatively small amount of workers, hence the large salary. Also I bet there are no shareholders (well there probably will be, equity partners).
BA has what, 35,000 employees now? So salaries have to be paid to a large workforce who are all fighting for their fair share. BA has shareholders who also need to be compensated for their investment. So it isn't ever going to happen that you're paid the same as your barrister friend. Nice dream though.
Best get yourself to law school quick!
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NN,
It was only a couple of postings ago that you were complaining that plate slingers get 50K - now youre saying that BA pilots should be on a quarter of a million plus!
Nice to see that you haven't lost your sense of humour whilst working for BA
It was only a couple of postings ago that you were complaining that plate slingers get 50K - now youre saying that BA pilots should be on a quarter of a million plus!
Nice to see that you haven't lost your sense of humour whilst working for BA
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"My mate who is a barrister and has trained and spent time working up his profession (almost identical time to me) earns £265000 pa."
Your mate is earning that amount of money because he is not driving (air)buses.....maybe you've chauffeured him around a few times while he sits in 1A (not as a staff pax, either!)!?
Your mate is earning that amount of money because he is not driving (air)buses.....maybe you've chauffeured him around a few times while he sits in 1A (not as a staff pax, either!)!?