BA reject pilot's pay proposal.

[Lucifer]

Myth quashing about doctors

I stand open to correction but a NHS GP doesnt look forward to 24 years of incruments that effectively double their pay.

However they are self-employed, and therefore are a poor comparison - a hospital doctor might be a better one - if they aid the discussion I will post some increments here, less of course private patient income. 2001 GP increments can be found at http://www.dh.gov.uk/assetRoot/04/06/85/12/04068512.pdf on page 35. All expenses can be claimed on top, taking the average turnover of a GP to £139,000 in 2001. Much more than a BA pilot. Additionally consider private income.

For all doctors in 2004:

http://www.bma.org.uk/ap.nsf/Content...ortSummary2004

This excludes any overtime, private fee income, allowances for greater qualifications, additional income from other bodies etc, but simply core income from the NHS.

http://www.bma.org.uk/ap.nsf/Content/DDRB0304fact

Information on salary multipliers etc.

[Well thats Me]

Lucifer
I can see where your coming from but i think you are refering to consultants only,i would read them across to a BA management training Captain - lots and lots of GPs ( including a close friend of mine ) dont work in London and their expenses are used for their daily jobs,he has been a GP for 22 years and earns 65K.

If pilots were as you say on a supply and demand basis then why doesnt BA train up a few hundred on the cheap?,theres a willing supply of smart people wanting to do the job.
--- I dont want to knock you all here ( honest ) what i want to say is maybe the factors of the past with state owned airlines that led to the " supply and demand " drain of smaller carriers are not the same today with the LCCs -- Is that right or wrong i dont know. .......... We are constantly told " TIMES HAVE CHANGED " in engineering.

One factor to consider though and one RE knows well ( and this is not speculation ) is the pilots make up 8% of the BA workforce and account for 22% of the wage bill !

[overstress]

I think the throwaway line 'it takes a year to get an ATPL' and all this comparisons with GPs etc is totally meaningless.

The point of the thread is surely that BA terms and conditions are considered by some at least to have some influence on the rest of the industry. There are over 3500 of us in one group.

Well that's me - you are an engineer I believe; you are stirring the pot here and you well know it. Why the obsessive interest in our T's & C's? Why not look to contribute something useful to other forums?

[ZQA297/30]

It is all too common to hear "it only takes a year to get an ATPL". This is either incredible ignorance or intellectual dishonesty

There are not many reputable carriers who would consider putting a one year wonder in the left seat of their flashy new BoeBus.

Lets be honest, it takes a pilot longer than the Doctors' 7 years to meet the requirements to draw the (Junior) Captains pay scale in most recognised carriers.

In that time our co-pilot will have accumulated in excess of 5,000 hours and have had well over 20 pretty gruelling flying tests and exams. He will have been closely medically examined at least 7 or 8 times, or up to twice that, depending on his age/licence.

Even when he finally settles into that well earned left seat with a sigh, the consequences of medical or check/exam failure are catastrophic, as are many operational errors.

So let us not sell the pilots job short.

[Human Factor]

How does the salary affect flight safety?

It doesn't. What does affect flight safety is the fact that I get paid x quid to fly a jet from A to B. A couple of years ago, that x quid meant I flew about 720 hours. Now, for as near as dammit the same x quid, I do well over 800 hours per year on the 777 with an average of five transatlantics per month (10 crossings). There is no slack in the system, as the company is currently finding out.

Personally, I would rather have the same x quid and have my hours reduced to something a bit more realistic than get a pay rise. A ten percent cut in hours would do it and, more importantly, improve flight safety because crews would not be fatigued (as opposed to tired).

[Blackball]

Ah Human Factor, try doing over 800 hours short haul as at SHAG. Now that is fatiguing especially under the Carmen regime. Still remember it was as BALPA would be the first to point out in their defence a"collective" agreement.

[Thrush]

Yawn............!

[heavy crew]

Actually a little time ago I was told I was a overpaid/ underworked member of cabin crew but if I did 800 flying hours per year it would be a drop of over 20%.

I honestly think human has a point, but IMHO not just for pilots, cabin crew get fatigued too and we have no 900 hour limit to protect us.

[M.Mouse]

HC

Is that SH or LH?

If it is LH how much of that time is bunk time?

Seems a lot of hours to me but an error made by you and an error made by a pilot due to fatigue have quite different consequences.

[normal_nigel]

Crew

You do indeed get tired and have to deal with jet lag etc.

However having just risen from the bunks and feeling a little jaded whats the worst you can do. Spill coffee on someone? You can't really compare. And don't use the door argument. If we crashed and you had to open it you would as the adrenlin would kick in.

Thats if BASSA allowed you to do it of course. Would you ring them first? What if the crash occured outside of your industrial limits?

NN

[Big Tudor]

heavy crew

As of December last year, the European Working Time Directive came into force for aircrew. In that there is a 900 block hr yearly limit.

[heavy crew]

Regarding Mr mouse I am at LGW LH and I have not seen a bunk for many years, infact since the 744's went back to LHR.

Nigel I feel sorry for any crew that fly with you, your lack of comprehension of what makes a team borders on negligence.

I of course realise that cabin crew are not as important as the pilots in the overall safety of the A/C, but we are all human beings and as such suffer in similar ways the effects of fatigue.
You should worry less about how important you or cabin crew are and realise that a chain is only as strong as its weakest link.

Infact you are the weakest link goodbye.
Hee Hee couldn't resist that one.

Big Tudor thanks for your reply, I wasn't aware that the EWTD limit of 900 hours for aircrew actually meant cabin crew.
I assumed aircrew was pilots only.

I will look into that, thanks for your help.

[normal_nigel]

Getting you workshy idiots to actually go to work is the biggest challenge of the day unless there's a load of allowances at stake or you need to get home for Wimbledon (assuming that you're not on the sick to start with).

No wonder we lose money with BASSA running the airline.
NN

[heavy crew]

Nigel I believe we actally made a profit last year, unlike many airlines and to be candid Cabin crew attendance currently is very good.

I have posted before many ways to improve it, however I feel that given the same conditions, cabin crew attendance would be very similar to our pilots.

You of course will not as you are just going to continue making a racket about something to hold little if any knowledge about.

As for BASSA running the airline I am sure that the BA board do that, when they make decisions that affect their workers then they negotiate these with the respective unions IE BALPA, BASSA, ect.

This is the way a large company is run.

Tudor I have bounced your point off a few people and we feel that the directive does not apply to cabin crew, do you know differently, if you do could you please expand on it?

Thanks

[normal_nigel]

Actually pal I know a lot about it The crap I have to put up with from fat old ex-sea stewards and pompous Windsor Witches is quite unbelievable. Anything not to work especilly if there's some Pimms on offer somewhere near the river.

Oh and I might just post some interesting salary figures if I can find the link.

Oh here we are



http://www.smcevoy.co.uk/wages2.jpg http://www.smcevoy.co.uk/wages1.jpg http://www.smcevoy.co.uk/wages3.jpg

[dicksynormous]

Crew,

"I have posted before many ways to improve it, however I feel that given the same conditions, cabin crew attendance would be very similar to our pilots."

Given the same investment in careers,the same levels of knowledge, responsibility,levels of constant skills,medical checking and ultimate responsibilty, then you would be eligible for the same conditions as the pilots.

The team and your role in the team is important, but the team are not all the same.

Its may sound offensive but i could do your job with no further training, not vice versa. Dont take it personnaly its just a fact. I do not demean your job but it does not demand the levels mentioned above.Therefore the rewards are different. Thats life the world over.

Crm is a tool to manage, and extract the best from a team , not a communist doctrine designed to make it a flight by commitee.

[thegirth]

Heavy Crew,

If it's bunk time you're after LHR is the place.

Cabin Crew rush a service in order to maximise time away from passengers. They then retire to the rest area even on East Coast flights when rest is not rostered.

Does the cabin get checked every 20 mins? Do the toilets get security checked? Can a passenger grab a water from a tray that travels at high speed carried by a crew member that refuses to make eye contact in case she has to stop? Do drinks get topped up in 1st or does a passenger have to go to the galley for a refill?

Answers - No. No. No. No and Yes!!!

BA make a profit in spite of cabin staff not because of them.

A minority still surprise me by enjoying their jobs and wanting to go the extra mile though. It used to be the other way around. Big shame.

[Carnage Matey!]

Average days sickness per year for BA employees:

Flight crew: 10
Cabin crew: 26

[Airbus Girl]

I don't want to stir things as I don't know much about BA's cabin crew, but just so you can compare, the cabin crew in the airline I work for (major UK holiday airline) earn around £10-12k plus around £200 allowances. They can earn commission if the spend the entire flight working their guts out and selling everything they can. They also have targets for the number of completed Customer Feedback Questionnaires they must collect. As well as doing the bar service and meal service. All this on all regular flights, whether they be 2 hour sectors or 5 (or longer).

Our crew's sickness is taken into account when promotions are discussed. Most crew will come in even if they are ill, so they don't have a bad record. It is quite rare for cabin crew to go sick, other than the new recruits who don't like the job and eventually leave.

We have excellent CRM with them, they work very hard but accept that our jobs are very different. If they wanted to be paid our salary then there is nothing stopping them training as pilots.

[maxy101]

Carnage Matey Where did you get those figures from? One has to be careful as different departments seem to "massage" their own departments figures when compared to everyone else. Recently attended a flight crew forum where it was stated that they were worried about the "increase" in pilot sickness. When challenged for some hard figures it went very quiet. After all, 2 pilots going sick per day when previously there was only one is a 100% increase in sickness, no?