BA reject pilot's pay proposal.
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I attach a link that will give an idea of why airline employees are under stress in the T&C dept.
http://www.flightpaths.com.au/chapters/decline3.pdf
From this, the constant downward pressure on airfares is quite clear, and will continue unless and until ALL airline employees are willing to band together to stop the decline.
Do I see any pigs flying?
Better work on part timing as pilots for the fun, (line shares?), and get some other more lucrative income source to prop up whats left of your standard of living.
(Tongue only partly in cheek)
http://www.flightpaths.com.au/chapters/decline3.pdf
From this, the constant downward pressure on airfares is quite clear, and will continue unless and until ALL airline employees are willing to band together to stop the decline.
Do I see any pigs flying?
Better work on part timing as pilots for the fun, (line shares?), and get some other more lucrative income source to prop up whats left of your standard of living.
(Tongue only partly in cheek)
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This post is not aimed at pilots,they know what I am talking about. Please forgive the broad generalisations.
I have heard this "glorified busdriver" epithet for 40 years now. It is either intellectual dishonesty or terminal ignorance.
Once you have qualified as an airline pilot, you have only just begun the long road to "Airline Captain". You will not be permitted to jump into the left seat of any reputable air carrier's aircraft, no matter how clever you are.
You will now start to learn the skills required to captain a large aircraft.
You can look forward to sim checks, line checks, type checks, etc, for the rest of your career, along with constant upgrade and refresher training, CRM, dangerous goods, safety and emergency procedures, and so on and on.
In the major carriers it can take anywhere from maybe 8 if you are very lucky, up to 20 odd years to get to the big bucks in the left seat. (and 6,000 to 12,000 or more hours )
There will be anywhere from 16 to 40 odd sim checks, anywhere from 8 to 20 odd line checks, 16 to 40 medicals (any one of which might terminate your career) countless hours in groundschool for upgrades, refreshers, and the constant stream of new requirements that that the regulatory bodies put out.
Finally you heave a sigh of relief and settle into your hard earned left seat. Now you are responsible for $100 million or more of Boebus, and its 200 to 400 trusting occupants.
You will be on your own once your bus starts moving, you are not arguing a point in front of a judge or jury for them to decide the outcome, you make all the decisions. You are solely accountable. If you get it seriously wrong, you and your 400 trusting souls end up in a smoking heap in some far off place whilst the press and the world in general speculate as to how you cocked up.
If you get it only slightly wrong, it can be even worse, as you are supposed to have a working knowledge of literally thousands of pages of technical information, and rules and regulations of many different countries, (almost all of which differ from each other). They will investigate everything you did in minute detail even if it has no direct bearing on your cockup, and you will probably be prosecuted on any infraction of any area, relevant or not.
Yours is the most highly trained and checked profession of any that I am aware of.
So when your airplane starts to shake rattle and roll , make strange noises, or emit smoke, sparks, or otherwise act up, and it goes deathly quiet in the cabin, do not succumb to the temption to go on the PA and ask "is there a bus driver on board": rather just announce in a quietly firm and confident voice," this is your Captain, we have a problem, and our team of professionals is dealing with it", because you know thats true.
Busdrivers indeed, Bah Humbug!
I have heard this "glorified busdriver" epithet for 40 years now. It is either intellectual dishonesty or terminal ignorance.
Once you have qualified as an airline pilot, you have only just begun the long road to "Airline Captain". You will not be permitted to jump into the left seat of any reputable air carrier's aircraft, no matter how clever you are.
You will now start to learn the skills required to captain a large aircraft.
You can look forward to sim checks, line checks, type checks, etc, for the rest of your career, along with constant upgrade and refresher training, CRM, dangerous goods, safety and emergency procedures, and so on and on.
In the major carriers it can take anywhere from maybe 8 if you are very lucky, up to 20 odd years to get to the big bucks in the left seat. (and 6,000 to 12,000 or more hours )
There will be anywhere from 16 to 40 odd sim checks, anywhere from 8 to 20 odd line checks, 16 to 40 medicals (any one of which might terminate your career) countless hours in groundschool for upgrades, refreshers, and the constant stream of new requirements that that the regulatory bodies put out.
Finally you heave a sigh of relief and settle into your hard earned left seat. Now you are responsible for $100 million or more of Boebus, and its 200 to 400 trusting occupants.
You will be on your own once your bus starts moving, you are not arguing a point in front of a judge or jury for them to decide the outcome, you make all the decisions. You are solely accountable. If you get it seriously wrong, you and your 400 trusting souls end up in a smoking heap in some far off place whilst the press and the world in general speculate as to how you cocked up.
If you get it only slightly wrong, it can be even worse, as you are supposed to have a working knowledge of literally thousands of pages of technical information, and rules and regulations of many different countries, (almost all of which differ from each other). They will investigate everything you did in minute detail even if it has no direct bearing on your cockup, and you will probably be prosecuted on any infraction of any area, relevant or not.
Yours is the most highly trained and checked profession of any that I am aware of.
So when your airplane starts to shake rattle and roll , make strange noises, or emit smoke, sparks, or otherwise act up, and it goes deathly quiet in the cabin, do not succumb to the temption to go on the PA and ask "is there a bus driver on board": rather just announce in a quietly firm and confident voice," this is your Captain, we have a problem, and our team of professionals is dealing with it", because you know thats true.
Busdrivers indeed, Bah Humbug!
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ZQA297/30
Well you obviously think you deserve to be well paid and so do i to a point,what i will say though and so will lots of other people in the general public plus other groups within BA is what defines well paid? through all your problems what makes your job different from other jobs that get paid far less?.
This is not a dig just a honest reply to your comments.
1/ Once you have qualified as an airline pilot, you have only just begun the long road to "Airline Captain".
....................... I have seen BA captains that are very young,i would go as far as to say mid twenties for some ..... again not a dig but if your argument held true there would be a minimum age to be a commander of say 40 but there isn't.I believe the pass rate for the BA command courses is somewhere about 85 - 90%,sure everyone who gets the option is gunning fully for it but its not quite the 15% best players only like the royal marine commandos now is it?
2/ You can look forward to sim checks, line checks, type checks, etc, for the rest of your career, along with constant upgrade and refresher training, CRM, dangerous goods, safety and emergency procedures, and so on and on.
..................... Sure like train drivers,paramedics,nurses,firemen - and so on and on.
3/ In the major carriers it can take anywhere from maybe 8 if you are very lucky, up to 20 odd years to get to the big bucks in the left seat. (and 6,000 to 12,000 or more hours )
There will be anywhere from 16 to 40 odd sim checks, anywhere from 8 to 20 odd line checks, 16 to 40 medicals (any one of which might terminate your career) countless hours in ground school for upgrades, refreshers, and the constant stream of new requirements that the regulatory bodies put out.
......................... Yes but the command positions are seniority selection based so its just a waiting game.
............................6,000 to 12,000 or more hours ----- Odd this do dentists keep log books on the number of fillings they do,after 10000 trouble free fillings they are suitable to be head dentist?
............................there have been posts on Pprune regarding BA pilots pay scales,the longhaul F/O pay could hardly be defined as breadline and that's the truth.
............................countless hours in ground school ----- tell me about it !
.............................the constant stream of new requirements that the regulatory bodies put out. ---- tell me about it,just been out today and brought £200 worth of books in the hope i can keep the JAA happy and continue to do what i do daily !
...............................There will be anywhere from 16 to 40 odd sim checks, anywhere from 8 to 20 odd line checks, 16 to 40 medicals (any one of which might terminate your career) ----- rather like the train drivers,doctors or actually any of us if we became ill and couldn't work.
4/ Now you are responsible for $100 million or more of Boebus, and its 200 to 400 trusting occupants.
............................... Just like me then !
5/ You will be on your own once your bus starts moving, you are not arguing a point in front of a judge or jury for them to decide the outcome, you make all the decisions. You are solely accountable. If you get it seriously wrong, you and your 400 trusting souls end up in a smoking heap in some far off place whilst the press and the world in general speculate as to how you cocked up.
.............................. Partially have to concede you this one alone,what it might mean though is you are gone where as i would be in the Old Bailey with it on my conscience for the rest of my life,debatable who gets the better deal there !
6/ If you get it only slightly wrong, it can be even worse, as you are supposed to have a working knowledge of literally thousands of pages of technical information, and rules and regulations of many different countries, (almost all of which differ from each other). They will investigate everything you did in minute detail even if it has no direct bearing on your cockup, and you will probably be prosecuted on any infraction of any area, relevant or not.
................................ This is not that extraordinary,the reams and reams of engineering procedures must match the flight crew ones,the managers are just as nasty ( we have just had a guy sacked over a technical issue ),apart from the different countries comment the requirements for us to you are very similar,i dare say there are similarities for individuals that man nuclear subs,power station or the medical profession etc.
7/ Yours is the most highly trained and checked profession of any that I am aware of.
............................ you need to look harder,there are many others.
8/ So when your airplane starts to shake rattle and roll , make strange noises, or emit smoke, sparks, or otherwise act up, and it goes deathly quiet in the cabin, do not succumb to the temptation to go on the PA and ask "is there a bus driver on board": rather just announce in a quietly firm and confident voice," this is your Captain, we have a problem, and our team of professionals is dealing with it", because you know that's true.
................................ true and nobody certainly not me is arguing,its a professional job and you are treated as professional,what its isn't though is far more profession than many other professions that get rewarded far less.
Well you obviously think you deserve to be well paid and so do i to a point,what i will say though and so will lots of other people in the general public plus other groups within BA is what defines well paid? through all your problems what makes your job different from other jobs that get paid far less?.
This is not a dig just a honest reply to your comments.
1/ Once you have qualified as an airline pilot, you have only just begun the long road to "Airline Captain".
....................... I have seen BA captains that are very young,i would go as far as to say mid twenties for some ..... again not a dig but if your argument held true there would be a minimum age to be a commander of say 40 but there isn't.I believe the pass rate for the BA command courses is somewhere about 85 - 90%,sure everyone who gets the option is gunning fully for it but its not quite the 15% best players only like the royal marine commandos now is it?
2/ You can look forward to sim checks, line checks, type checks, etc, for the rest of your career, along with constant upgrade and refresher training, CRM, dangerous goods, safety and emergency procedures, and so on and on.
..................... Sure like train drivers,paramedics,nurses,firemen - and so on and on.
3/ In the major carriers it can take anywhere from maybe 8 if you are very lucky, up to 20 odd years to get to the big bucks in the left seat. (and 6,000 to 12,000 or more hours )
There will be anywhere from 16 to 40 odd sim checks, anywhere from 8 to 20 odd line checks, 16 to 40 medicals (any one of which might terminate your career) countless hours in ground school for upgrades, refreshers, and the constant stream of new requirements that the regulatory bodies put out.
......................... Yes but the command positions are seniority selection based so its just a waiting game.
............................6,000 to 12,000 or more hours ----- Odd this do dentists keep log books on the number of fillings they do,after 10000 trouble free fillings they are suitable to be head dentist?
............................there have been posts on Pprune regarding BA pilots pay scales,the longhaul F/O pay could hardly be defined as breadline and that's the truth.
............................countless hours in ground school ----- tell me about it !
.............................the constant stream of new requirements that the regulatory bodies put out. ---- tell me about it,just been out today and brought £200 worth of books in the hope i can keep the JAA happy and continue to do what i do daily !
...............................There will be anywhere from 16 to 40 odd sim checks, anywhere from 8 to 20 odd line checks, 16 to 40 medicals (any one of which might terminate your career) ----- rather like the train drivers,doctors or actually any of us if we became ill and couldn't work.
4/ Now you are responsible for $100 million or more of Boebus, and its 200 to 400 trusting occupants.
............................... Just like me then !
5/ You will be on your own once your bus starts moving, you are not arguing a point in front of a judge or jury for them to decide the outcome, you make all the decisions. You are solely accountable. If you get it seriously wrong, you and your 400 trusting souls end up in a smoking heap in some far off place whilst the press and the world in general speculate as to how you cocked up.
.............................. Partially have to concede you this one alone,what it might mean though is you are gone where as i would be in the Old Bailey with it on my conscience for the rest of my life,debatable who gets the better deal there !
6/ If you get it only slightly wrong, it can be even worse, as you are supposed to have a working knowledge of literally thousands of pages of technical information, and rules and regulations of many different countries, (almost all of which differ from each other). They will investigate everything you did in minute detail even if it has no direct bearing on your cockup, and you will probably be prosecuted on any infraction of any area, relevant or not.
................................ This is not that extraordinary,the reams and reams of engineering procedures must match the flight crew ones,the managers are just as nasty ( we have just had a guy sacked over a technical issue ),apart from the different countries comment the requirements for us to you are very similar,i dare say there are similarities for individuals that man nuclear subs,power station or the medical profession etc.
7/ Yours is the most highly trained and checked profession of any that I am aware of.
............................ you need to look harder,there are many others.
8/ So when your airplane starts to shake rattle and roll , make strange noises, or emit smoke, sparks, or otherwise act up, and it goes deathly quiet in the cabin, do not succumb to the temptation to go on the PA and ask "is there a bus driver on board": rather just announce in a quietly firm and confident voice," this is your Captain, we have a problem, and our team of professionals is dealing with it", because you know that's true.
................................ true and nobody certainly not me is arguing,its a professional job and you are treated as professional,what its isn't though is far more profession than many other professions that get rewarded far less.
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Well that's me - I applaud your posting as it is an accurate summary of reality! ZQA's idea that society referring to him as a glorified bus driver constitutes 'terminal ignorance' is the most convenient emergency exit for a reality that the individual cannot accept!
Last edited by jerrystinger; 14th Jun 2004 at 19:24.
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1. ............... "but if your argument held true there would be a minimum age to be a commander of say 40 but there isn't."
There is no age requirement in most airlines, only an experience requirement in flying hours. I am not familiar with BA, but have seen 2,500 hrs for T/Prop, and at least 5,000 for jet, sometimes more for heavies, elsewhere. Maybe I am out of date? Do BA put Capts in the left seat with significantly less?
There is no shortcut to the hours, so unless you can clock up the legal yearly max on the hours, or have had much previous flying experience elsewhere, it is going to be at least 6 years, more realistically 8 to 10 years, assuming rapid expansion and no seniority delays.
If your BA skipper joined at 18 he might be in line by 24 to 26 but I would be surprised if that was the norm for large jet aircraft, even at BA.
2. ....................." Sure like train drivers,paramedics,nurses,firemen - and so on and on."
I was not aware that there was a legal requirement for the above named to demonstrate in actual or simulated conditions their full knowledge of all systems and procedures, both normal and emergency, on a six monthly basis. Do they do it in real life or in simulators?
3. ..................."Yes but the command positions are seniority selection based so its just a waiting game."
No, in most reputable airlines it is not just a waiting game, you have to have had a track record of satisfactory prior checks, plus the qualifying hours, plus be able to pass the upgrade check. I doubt BAs procedure is significantly at variance with this principle.
..................."6,000 to 12,000 or more hours ----- Odd this "
Not really, quite common in the industry.
............."there have been posts on Pprune regarding BA pilots pay scales,the longhaul F/O pay could hardly be defined as breadline and that's the truth"
and your point is?
............."countless hours in ground school ----- tell me about it !"
I presume you agree on this then? Do your train drivers nurses firemen etc experience this ?
....."tell me about it,just been out today and brought £200 worth of ..."
Traindrivers, Nurses, Firemen, Doctors? I concede Lawyers.
........."16 to 40 medicals (any one of which might terminate your career) ----- rather like the train drivers,doctors or actually any of us if we became ill and couldn't work."
Really? are Doctors medically examined each 6 months and barred from practicing if a relatively minor health problem is picked up?
4/ Now you are responsible for $100 million or more of Boebus, and its 200 to 400 trusting occupants.
............................... "Just like me then !"
Yes, just like you, but the pilot is doing several hundred knots, is on his own, and has to make the final decision under time constraints, none of which apply to you. It is just a bit different you must admit.
5. No comment.
6........"i dare say there are similarities for individuals that man nuclear subs,power station or the medical profession etc."
The main difference is that they can take their time and dig out the books and take a look to be sure. They are not swanning through the sky at several hundred knots and running out of fuel and options concurrently.
7........"you need to look harder,there are many others.
There may well be, would you care to suggest where I might look.
8......"what its isn't though is far more profession than many other professions that get rewarded far less".
You may be right there, but on the other hand there are a lot of jobs that are "less professional" or "not professional at all" that pay more.
:-) :-)
There is no age requirement in most airlines, only an experience requirement in flying hours. I am not familiar with BA, but have seen 2,500 hrs for T/Prop, and at least 5,000 for jet, sometimes more for heavies, elsewhere. Maybe I am out of date? Do BA put Capts in the left seat with significantly less?
There is no shortcut to the hours, so unless you can clock up the legal yearly max on the hours, or have had much previous flying experience elsewhere, it is going to be at least 6 years, more realistically 8 to 10 years, assuming rapid expansion and no seniority delays.
If your BA skipper joined at 18 he might be in line by 24 to 26 but I would be surprised if that was the norm for large jet aircraft, even at BA.
2. ....................." Sure like train drivers,paramedics,nurses,firemen - and so on and on."
I was not aware that there was a legal requirement for the above named to demonstrate in actual or simulated conditions their full knowledge of all systems and procedures, both normal and emergency, on a six monthly basis. Do they do it in real life or in simulators?
3. ..................."Yes but the command positions are seniority selection based so its just a waiting game."
No, in most reputable airlines it is not just a waiting game, you have to have had a track record of satisfactory prior checks, plus the qualifying hours, plus be able to pass the upgrade check. I doubt BAs procedure is significantly at variance with this principle.
..................."6,000 to 12,000 or more hours ----- Odd this "
Not really, quite common in the industry.
............."there have been posts on Pprune regarding BA pilots pay scales,the longhaul F/O pay could hardly be defined as breadline and that's the truth"
and your point is?
............."countless hours in ground school ----- tell me about it !"
I presume you agree on this then? Do your train drivers nurses firemen etc experience this ?
....."tell me about it,just been out today and brought £200 worth of ..."
Traindrivers, Nurses, Firemen, Doctors? I concede Lawyers.
........."16 to 40 medicals (any one of which might terminate your career) ----- rather like the train drivers,doctors or actually any of us if we became ill and couldn't work."
Really? are Doctors medically examined each 6 months and barred from practicing if a relatively minor health problem is picked up?
4/ Now you are responsible for $100 million or more of Boebus, and its 200 to 400 trusting occupants.
............................... "Just like me then !"
Yes, just like you, but the pilot is doing several hundred knots, is on his own, and has to make the final decision under time constraints, none of which apply to you. It is just a bit different you must admit.
5. No comment.
6........"i dare say there are similarities for individuals that man nuclear subs,power station or the medical profession etc."
The main difference is that they can take their time and dig out the books and take a look to be sure. They are not swanning through the sky at several hundred knots and running out of fuel and options concurrently.
7........"you need to look harder,there are many others.
There may well be, would you care to suggest where I might look.
8......"what its isn't though is far more profession than many other professions that get rewarded far less".
You may be right there, but on the other hand there are a lot of jobs that are "less professional" or "not professional at all" that pay more.
:-) :-)
Last edited by ZQA297/30; 14th Jun 2004 at 22:22.
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Chaps, does discussion of this on an open forum really achieve anything? It gives the opportunity for a lot of loudmouths to have fun at others expense. Here we have an 'Engineer' winding you up. I really think it is counter productive BA people discussing this issue here with some of the frustrated 'experts' here who like to get their bit of abuse against BA in.
Let it go..........
Let it go..........
