Emirates emergency landing in JNB
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A330 Man
Strange how Airbuses are getting airborne all the time is it not??
Cannot understand how you can blame Airbus or EK's training dept for this accident.
When SQ6 crashed at Tapei there were some who thought the Captain should not have been sacked which amazed me.
Isn't learning the main goal you ask?? No not at this level in one's career it is not. There are some things that we as Captains have to take responsibility for and this JNB incident is one of them regardless of the fact there was no loss of life,which in itself is truly amazing. There are some incidents where saying " sorry " is just not good enough and heads have to roll.
Strange how Airbuses are getting airborne all the time is it not??
Cannot understand how you can blame Airbus or EK's training dept for this accident.
When SQ6 crashed at Tapei there were some who thought the Captain should not have been sacked which amazed me.
Isn't learning the main goal you ask?? No not at this level in one's career it is not. There are some things that we as Captains have to take responsibility for and this JNB incident is one of them regardless of the fact there was no loss of life,which in itself is truly amazing. There are some incidents where saying " sorry " is just not good enough and heads have to roll.
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Cap56, who the hell are you? Where do you come from?
And where the hell are you now, because I want to dig a deep and gnarly furrow in the earth that's at least 10 miles wide, preferably with my bare hands, so as to warn people to stay the hell away from the dangerous zone you live in.
Folks, this guy is not a pilot.
He can't be. Surely not. We're not populated by such fools. Are we?
Some in the know ask why he left EK, which kind of infers he was a pilot - before he went to jail, or the local Psycho Ward.
Jesus wept!
I'm a bit of a mushroom myself. I have, after all, only just stumbled onto this thread. One thing is for sure, it certainly has developed some.
Summary: EK is a better airline and Dubai is a better place without this fool, regardless of what it may or may not be as a place to work and live.
And that's what I'm trying to figure out.
And where the hell are you now, because I want to dig a deep and gnarly furrow in the earth that's at least 10 miles wide, preferably with my bare hands, so as to warn people to stay the hell away from the dangerous zone you live in.
Folks, this guy is not a pilot.
He can't be. Surely not. We're not populated by such fools. Are we?
Some in the know ask why he left EK, which kind of infers he was a pilot - before he went to jail, or the local Psycho Ward.
Jesus wept!
I'm a bit of a mushroom myself. I have, after all, only just stumbled onto this thread. One thing is for sure, it certainly has developed some.
Summary: EK is a better airline and Dubai is a better place without this fool, regardless of what it may or may not be as a place to work and live.
And that's what I'm trying to figure out.
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Millerscourt,
Yes it is strange how airbuses keep getting airborne all of the time. In fact this one got airborne also, due to the skill of the pilots.
You said:"Cannot understand how you can blame Airbus or EK's training dept for this accident."
Emirates tried to blame Airbus, not me. There was a memo issued to the pilots on the rotation technique of the 340-300 because of the training problem. I will admit that I am avoiding the 340 for now, but I have many friends on the 340 and friends who are instructors on it, and to a man they will tell you that there was a serious training issue regarding the 340-300 and it's rotation technique. Our training department was so concerned about tail strikes, that they forgot to get airborne. I do not know who you fly for, but if it is Emirates, then you know full well what I am talking about. If you do not fly for Emirates then I will submit that you do not know what you are talking about, because all that you know comes from newspapers, magazines and forums like this.
I do not know you but I will bet you a case of beer that the level of my career is just as good as yours. When I asked the question about learning I was referring to CRM training. Judging by the attitude of your post, I can guess that you never learn anything at annual CRM recurrent because you already know it all. That, my friend is nothing more than a path to disaster, not to mention that it makes you a real treat to fly with. A real know it all knows nothing. The day that I fly a trip and do not learn something is the day that I have the balls to quit. You obviously do not feel that way.
You make the statement that heads have to roll because of this incident. What is that based on. Do you have the facts? Did you investigate this incident? Are you in the Emirates training department? Show us the facts you used to make such a brash statement and I will back off. But until you do show us the facts, consider this: before you toy with 2 families lives like a little boy playing with toy soldiers, you should stand back and wait for the facts.
Emirates pilots were issued new guidence regarding 340-300 rotation as a result of this incident. THAT IS A FACT! The pilots did what they were taught. THAT IS A FACT! Emirates tried to blame Airbus. THAT IS A FACT! In the beginning of the Emirates 340 program Airbus told the Emirates instructors on the 340 that they were teaching incorrect rotation technique. THAT IS A FACT! That airbus got airborne. THAT IS A FACT! The reputation of these 2 pilots will for ever be tarnished. THAT IS A FACT.
I have been in this industry for over 25 years and I do not really need you to explain to me the responsibilities of a Captain. But I thank you just the same for reminding me that every pilot I have ever flown with, be it Captain or First Officer, who thought they knew it all and were too smart to learn, actually knew very little. They had the most to learn!
Your post is offensive!
I obviously have taken offense to it, and THAT IS A FACT!
330 Man
Yes it is strange how airbuses keep getting airborne all of the time. In fact this one got airborne also, due to the skill of the pilots.
You said:"Cannot understand how you can blame Airbus or EK's training dept for this accident."
Emirates tried to blame Airbus, not me. There was a memo issued to the pilots on the rotation technique of the 340-300 because of the training problem. I will admit that I am avoiding the 340 for now, but I have many friends on the 340 and friends who are instructors on it, and to a man they will tell you that there was a serious training issue regarding the 340-300 and it's rotation technique. Our training department was so concerned about tail strikes, that they forgot to get airborne. I do not know who you fly for, but if it is Emirates, then you know full well what I am talking about. If you do not fly for Emirates then I will submit that you do not know what you are talking about, because all that you know comes from newspapers, magazines and forums like this.
I do not know you but I will bet you a case of beer that the level of my career is just as good as yours. When I asked the question about learning I was referring to CRM training. Judging by the attitude of your post, I can guess that you never learn anything at annual CRM recurrent because you already know it all. That, my friend is nothing more than a path to disaster, not to mention that it makes you a real treat to fly with. A real know it all knows nothing. The day that I fly a trip and do not learn something is the day that I have the balls to quit. You obviously do not feel that way.
You make the statement that heads have to roll because of this incident. What is that based on. Do you have the facts? Did you investigate this incident? Are you in the Emirates training department? Show us the facts you used to make such a brash statement and I will back off. But until you do show us the facts, consider this: before you toy with 2 families lives like a little boy playing with toy soldiers, you should stand back and wait for the facts.
Emirates pilots were issued new guidence regarding 340-300 rotation as a result of this incident. THAT IS A FACT! The pilots did what they were taught. THAT IS A FACT! Emirates tried to blame Airbus. THAT IS A FACT! In the beginning of the Emirates 340 program Airbus told the Emirates instructors on the 340 that they were teaching incorrect rotation technique. THAT IS A FACT! That airbus got airborne. THAT IS A FACT! The reputation of these 2 pilots will for ever be tarnished. THAT IS A FACT.
I have been in this industry for over 25 years and I do not really need you to explain to me the responsibilities of a Captain. But I thank you just the same for reminding me that every pilot I have ever flown with, be it Captain or First Officer, who thought they knew it all and were too smart to learn, actually knew very little. They had the most to learn!
Your post is offensive!
I obviously have taken offense to it, and THAT IS A FACT!
330 Man
Last edited by 330 Man; 3rd Aug 2004 at 18:11.
Now then, I am sure that a whole lot of you out there in DXB are wondering where CAP56 has gone.
Sadly, he has not passed away but is now pontificating on the "BA777 returned to LHR" thread.
I have never flown the 777 or the 340 but I have nevertheless come to the firm conclusion that this guy is a sciolist.
Not only that, he must surely be a strong contender for the Monday Morning Quarterback Olympic championship to be held at LGAV soon!
Sadly, he has not passed away but is now pontificating on the "BA777 returned to LHR" thread.
I have never flown the 777 or the 340 but I have nevertheless come to the firm conclusion that this guy is a sciolist.
Not only that, he must surely be a strong contender for the Monday Morning Quarterback Olympic championship to be held at LGAV soon!
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A330 Man
This aircraft got airborne due to the skill of the Pilot!!! Please explain that statement.
I have 4000 hours on the A340 and have flown that very aircraft which only just got airborne at JNB. Although no longer current on type as back on Boeings I find your logic strange.
This aircraft got airborne due to the skill of the Pilot!!! Please explain that statement.
I have 4000 hours on the A340 and have flown that very aircraft which only just got airborne at JNB. Although no longer current on type as back on Boeings I find your logic strange.
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Millerscourt,
How do you think it got airborne, through osmosis? Maybe it was magic? A magician performing a great feat of levitation? Of course it was the skills of the flight crew. If not they would have been the first at the scene of the accident.
As you said, “the fact that there was no loss of life which is truly amazing.”
Do you attribute this to luck? Luck, good or bad has no place in the cockpit, and is not a factor in an accident. As you well know any aircraft accident is a chain of events. Every event must take place, in a very specific order or the accident will not occur.
These pilots found themselves in a very difficult situation and it was their skill, once realizing their predicament that got this aircraft back on the ground. Do you think the airplane got back on the ground by itself? Of course the pilots were partially to blame for the predicament in the first place. But the point of my previous post was that there were other, larger factors as well. The Boss said I want these 8 airplanes now. No one here in management was able to convince him that we could not keep up with the growth now, let alone with 8 additional airplanes. Every department at this company from inflight to housing, medical to pilot records was stretched to the limit. These 8 additional airplanes made it that much worse. But when you fly for a company that is owned by the ruling family, when the Boss says go, you go. That is the company philosophy link in the accident chain.
The training department did not have anything ready for the 340-300 and had little time to prepare. They were up to their eyeballs on the 340-500 program. As you have 4000 hours on the 340 you well know that the difference between the dash 300 and the dash 500 is night and day. Then you have to add the fact that these airplanes are underpowered pieces of crap. If they were any good, then you would still be flying them at SQ instead of Emirates. The differences between the 2 models were not really taken into account in the beginning of the 340 program. There were training issues that were not being addressed because the training department was up their eyeballs in other things. This is the training department link in the accident chain.
The pilot link of the chain had been kicked around like a dead dog, so I will not even get into that. Suffice it to say that there definitely was a pilot error link in the accident chain.
The pilots made mistakes, but neither you nor I really know what those mistakes were. That is why I think your call for “heads to roll” was out of line. When the final report from the investigating team from South Africa comes out, it may very well be that the pilots should be terminated. Until then, for you to act like the Queen of Hearts, and yell “off with their heads” is not only premature, it is uncalled for. Wait for the report and make your informed decision, which will then be based on fact, not guesses. That is my logic.
330 Man
How do you think it got airborne, through osmosis? Maybe it was magic? A magician performing a great feat of levitation? Of course it was the skills of the flight crew. If not they would have been the first at the scene of the accident.
As you said, “the fact that there was no loss of life which is truly amazing.”
Do you attribute this to luck? Luck, good or bad has no place in the cockpit, and is not a factor in an accident. As you well know any aircraft accident is a chain of events. Every event must take place, in a very specific order or the accident will not occur.
These pilots found themselves in a very difficult situation and it was their skill, once realizing their predicament that got this aircraft back on the ground. Do you think the airplane got back on the ground by itself? Of course the pilots were partially to blame for the predicament in the first place. But the point of my previous post was that there were other, larger factors as well. The Boss said I want these 8 airplanes now. No one here in management was able to convince him that we could not keep up with the growth now, let alone with 8 additional airplanes. Every department at this company from inflight to housing, medical to pilot records was stretched to the limit. These 8 additional airplanes made it that much worse. But when you fly for a company that is owned by the ruling family, when the Boss says go, you go. That is the company philosophy link in the accident chain.
The training department did not have anything ready for the 340-300 and had little time to prepare. They were up to their eyeballs on the 340-500 program. As you have 4000 hours on the 340 you well know that the difference between the dash 300 and the dash 500 is night and day. Then you have to add the fact that these airplanes are underpowered pieces of crap. If they were any good, then you would still be flying them at SQ instead of Emirates. The differences between the 2 models were not really taken into account in the beginning of the 340 program. There were training issues that were not being addressed because the training department was up their eyeballs in other things. This is the training department link in the accident chain.
The pilot link of the chain had been kicked around like a dead dog, so I will not even get into that. Suffice it to say that there definitely was a pilot error link in the accident chain.
The pilots made mistakes, but neither you nor I really know what those mistakes were. That is why I think your call for “heads to roll” was out of line. When the final report from the investigating team from South Africa comes out, it may very well be that the pilots should be terminated. Until then, for you to act like the Queen of Hearts, and yell “off with their heads” is not only premature, it is uncalled for. Wait for the report and make your informed decision, which will then be based on fact, not guesses. That is my logic.
330 Man
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Hey gang,
I can only say that the 340 under High, Hot and Heavy or any combination there of can be a bit of an eye opener. Even the slightest error in load information given to the pilots, therefore trim setting can lead to crap TO performance. I have seen it underperform especially in L/V wind conditions even after triple checking TO numbers before we went. I believe its called performance optimized but its just plain old underpowered IMHO. Nothing like a nice gentle rotation followed by a meager response with the last 2000' disappearing quickly. For whatever its worth.
happier times ahead......
I can only say that the 340 under High, Hot and Heavy or any combination there of can be a bit of an eye opener. Even the slightest error in load information given to the pilots, therefore trim setting can lead to crap TO performance. I have seen it underperform especially in L/V wind conditions even after triple checking TO numbers before we went. I believe its called performance optimized but its just plain old underpowered IMHO. Nothing like a nice gentle rotation followed by a meager response with the last 2000' disappearing quickly. For whatever its worth.
happier times ahead......
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330 Man, you're spot on.
The day I stop learning is the day I quit.
For those who subscribe to the 'hang em high' theory perhaps you should consider the 'he who is without error, let him cast the first stone' philosophy.
The nimber of times I've landed and thought 'if a few things had gone slightly differently.........'
NO accident is the sole fault of the crew. NONE. The Reason model of error chain is worthwhile looking at, if only to see that the poor bastards up the front are merely the last link in what is usually a catalogue of stuff ups leading to the the final prang.
Anyone who can walk away from an event like this and survive can only be the better for it. You can bet your arse they won't do it again, neither will any other Emirates crew. And that HAS to be good.
The day I stop learning is the day I quit.
For those who subscribe to the 'hang em high' theory perhaps you should consider the 'he who is without error, let him cast the first stone' philosophy.
The nimber of times I've landed and thought 'if a few things had gone slightly differently.........'
NO accident is the sole fault of the crew. NONE. The Reason model of error chain is worthwhile looking at, if only to see that the poor bastards up the front are merely the last link in what is usually a catalogue of stuff ups leading to the the final prang.
Anyone who can walk away from an event like this and survive can only be the better for it. You can bet your arse they won't do it again, neither will any other Emirates crew. And that HAS to be good.
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etrang.......... being a smartass helps no-one.
Every accident/incident has lessons. You never know when you or your loved ones have been flying as a pax with a crew who have just avoided a major cockup from applying the lessons learned from other unfortunates.
Every accident/incident has lessons. You never know when you or your loved ones have been flying as a pax with a crew who have just avoided a major cockup from applying the lessons learned from other unfortunates.
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It is quit obvious what will happen to the pilots involved in the Johannesburg incident.
Currently they are waiting for the conclusions of the investigation, this will take years. In the mean time their license will expire and no PPC will be scheduled since the investigation is pending.
At this time EK will say that they can no longer use them since they do not have a license and that it’s not their (EK) fault.
As a consequence the crew will be faced with a battle against the UAE CAA, all this will take time and lot of money. The only thing EK wants is that the pilot’s resign so EK can wash their hands in innocence and cover themselves legally.
This whole issue has turned into a simple case of blackmail the trademark of the dark side of this award buying Airline.
I can not possibly imagine that these chaps are still mentally fit to return to flying.
As such the UAE CAA holds another set of cards in their hands, that is to say that of pulling the crews license on medical grounds after mentally exhausting them by keeping them as prisoners in the golden cage.
EK may well have tried to put part of the blame on Airbus. What EK does not realise is that they have already a history with Airbus regarding their training standards.
Believe me, at Airbus they know how airlines in the Middle East function.
A European multinational like Airbus does not laugh about being blackmailed the way Boeing way by Egypt Air.
There are limits to what money can buy and as far as I know the President of the UAE lives in Abu not in Dubai and that’s what counts in the end, Airbus does not need EK to survive.
EK may have bought themselves a reputation with the general public, but within the Aviation Industry and rule making bodies the picture is very different.
Currently they are waiting for the conclusions of the investigation, this will take years. In the mean time their license will expire and no PPC will be scheduled since the investigation is pending.
At this time EK will say that they can no longer use them since they do not have a license and that it’s not their (EK) fault.
As a consequence the crew will be faced with a battle against the UAE CAA, all this will take time and lot of money. The only thing EK wants is that the pilot’s resign so EK can wash their hands in innocence and cover themselves legally.
This whole issue has turned into a simple case of blackmail the trademark of the dark side of this award buying Airline.
I can not possibly imagine that these chaps are still mentally fit to return to flying.
As such the UAE CAA holds another set of cards in their hands, that is to say that of pulling the crews license on medical grounds after mentally exhausting them by keeping them as prisoners in the golden cage.
EK may well have tried to put part of the blame on Airbus. What EK does not realise is that they have already a history with Airbus regarding their training standards.
Believe me, at Airbus they know how airlines in the Middle East function.
A European multinational like Airbus does not laugh about being blackmailed the way Boeing way by Egypt Air.
There are limits to what money can buy and as far as I know the President of the UAE lives in Abu not in Dubai and that’s what counts in the end, Airbus does not need EK to survive.
EK may have bought themselves a reputation with the general public, but within the Aviation Industry and rule making bodies the picture is very different.
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The reason why this tread is going on is quite simple. Despite the image EK has managed to buy; the only and real issue of any importance to any pilot considering signing up with EK is “How does the EK system react when faced with a problem like this”.
Taking into account that many pilots are looking at EK as a potential employer this tread is more actual than any other EK related subject.
The pilots concerned were holder of a license issued by an European country and may well loose everything simply because EK employed them and wrongly taught them how to rotate an A 340.
Taking into account that many pilots are looking at EK as a potential employer this tread is more actual than any other EK related subject.
The pilots concerned were holder of a license issued by an European country and may well loose everything simply because EK employed them and wrongly taught them how to rotate an A 340.
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Cap 56,
Wrong mate, the only reason this thread is still going is because a former, disgruntled employee (fired for his incompetence) keeps resurrecting the thread.
By the way; what does: 'more actual' actually mean?!?
You won't get your job back no matter how long you keep it going!! You just look sadder by the second, lighten up and let it go.
Cerberus
Wrong mate, the only reason this thread is still going is because a former, disgruntled employee (fired for his incompetence) keeps resurrecting the thread.
By the way; what does: 'more actual' actually mean?!?
You won't get your job back no matter how long you keep it going!! You just look sadder by the second, lighten up and let it go.
Cerberus
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Cap56 says "I can not possibly imagine that these chaps are still mentally fit to return to flying"....
After four months of posting fatuous drivel he finally reveals his sole verifiable area of expertise.
After four months of posting fatuous drivel he finally reveals his sole verifiable area of expertise.
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1) Repaired months ago and been flying ever since
2) Slightly - also many changes in management (bye TCK)
3) Heard they were in the sim recently, it would be nice to think so!!
2) Slightly - also many changes in management (bye TCK)
3) Heard they were in the sim recently, it would be nice to think so!!