ATCO murdered in Zurich (Merged)
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Timothy and luoto,
I think what Lon is trying to say is that the media had no right to print any of the persons details - nor was it of any public interest or benefit.
It cannot even be compared to a criminal case where a person is either wanted or has already been arrested.
I defy one person to demonstrate to me anything positive that could have come from publishing the details of the person involved.
To say that the media should not report because there is nothing to report is also short sighted. What the media should do is be sure of its facts and only report what is known to be true (*WMD not withstanding!), of course sometimes we get the news and pictures as they do - but rather than trying to interpret it perhaps they could just report the facts rather than come to their own, quite often, ill informed conclusions. How many times have you sat as an aviation professional (or semi) and cringed when an aviation expert on TV has given their views with little or no basis of fact.
When was the last time you flew in a commercial aircraft? And when was the last time you flew to the US? It is my humble opinion that the terrorists have already won esp wrt commercial aviation in the US, no queueing near the toilet, no flight deck visits, no metal cutlery - what about the other things people carry on board?
When you change the way you live or work to meet a threat that you cant even find or define - then you are already beaten.
I think what Lon is trying to say is that the media had no right to print any of the persons details - nor was it of any public interest or benefit.
It cannot even be compared to a criminal case where a person is either wanted or has already been arrested.
I defy one person to demonstrate to me anything positive that could have come from publishing the details of the person involved.
To say that the media should not report because there is nothing to report is also short sighted. What the media should do is be sure of its facts and only report what is known to be true (*WMD not withstanding!), of course sometimes we get the news and pictures as they do - but rather than trying to interpret it perhaps they could just report the facts rather than come to their own, quite often, ill informed conclusions. How many times have you sat as an aviation professional (or semi) and cringed when an aviation expert on TV has given their views with little or no basis of fact.
Is that the world we want to build for ourselves? Or would we rather tackle the real criminals rather than taking out the soft targets?
When you change the way you live or work to meet a threat that you cant even find or define - then you are already beaten.
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TrafficTraffic: I do not know Swiss media law so cannot comment on the specifics in THAT CASE and certainly until a person is found guilty of the crime I think ordinarily they should not be named anyway (I support media freedom, even though many argue that such a thing is not correct). I watched the UK "The Day Today" or whatever the programme was called that aired in 2003 showing transport chaos over the UK and culminating in a crash over LHR. I know it was fiction but they named the ATC there and later acquitted her or was it not guilty. I think that that programme was said to be well researched on the whole YET in that case, maybe like the ZRH case, the person should not have been named, even in part.
There is a problem when reporting cases where you CANNOT report, like a rape case victim, yet sometimes the identity comes out through jigsaw identification. One paper says she was a teacher, another says she teaches maths, another says she was a blonde lady, another says she had not been working at the school for a long time and then when you look at all the stories you can often see who it was.
I think however the nationality of the controller is justified reporting in case it emerged that perhaps the person did not have correct language training or whatnot (NOT SUGGESTING THAT WAS THE CASE FOR THE DECEASED DANE).
"I defy one person to demonstrate to me anything positive that could have come from publishing the details of the person involved."
By your same tone, what at all positive came from even writing about the incident ?
You know, many of the leaks that people here complain about come from their own industry peers who get "retainers" or "drinkies" from grateful journalists, in house PR spinners trying to make the best of the situation, industry consultants who are boosting little knowledge to get greater leverage and prowess in the media, rivals or even well intentioned people thinking they are helping. Not all the media can be painted black just because we disagree with something.
There is a problem when reporting cases where you CANNOT report, like a rape case victim, yet sometimes the identity comes out through jigsaw identification. One paper says she was a teacher, another says she teaches maths, another says she was a blonde lady, another says she had not been working at the school for a long time and then when you look at all the stories you can often see who it was.
I think however the nationality of the controller is justified reporting in case it emerged that perhaps the person did not have correct language training or whatnot (NOT SUGGESTING THAT WAS THE CASE FOR THE DECEASED DANE).
"I defy one person to demonstrate to me anything positive that could have come from publishing the details of the person involved."
By your same tone, what at all positive came from even writing about the incident ?
You know, many of the leaks that people here complain about come from their own industry peers who get "retainers" or "drinkies" from grateful journalists, in house PR spinners trying to make the best of the situation, industry consultants who are boosting little knowledge to get greater leverage and prowess in the media, rivals or even well intentioned people thinking they are helping. Not all the media can be painted black just because we disagree with something.
please wait
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I would agree that you may not blame the media for this specific drama. Very likely the family members of the victims will get names anyway through their legal proceedings.
It is interesting though that specially such law firms and lawyers who sometimes even 'parachute'
right into family meetings, while they are still getting counseled by care teams, try to focus the attention to the monetary aspects of such a disaster. They almost always promise Millions of $$
and use terms like "justice for wrongdoing" etc. Then, after first carefull analysis by the official investiagtion boards the very same laywers are nowhere to be seen until finally they come up with the offer of the insurance company. This may been then considerably lower then originally promised.
And this in turn can lead to such freakin actions very easily. Have in mind that according to common practize in Europe and legal interpretation you can only claim compensation for your actual economical damage. If parents lose their children through an accident they will not be able to proof any sort of economical damage. Same if adult children loose their (retired) parents.
US is completely different, specially because of pain and suffering compensation and punitive damages. But Europe does not acknowledge this. Further local living standarts of the victim have to be taking into consideration for any compensation. So, what is the "value" of a child in Bashkiria (?!)...??? What would be the financial compensation for a beloved wife over there? -
- As cynical as this may sound, this is one of the main issues in such a case and it may as well have played a role as only victims families have to go through this and it may further fog their brain and emotions.
It is interesting though that specially such law firms and lawyers who sometimes even 'parachute'
right into family meetings, while they are still getting counseled by care teams, try to focus the attention to the monetary aspects of such a disaster. They almost always promise Millions of $$
and use terms like "justice for wrongdoing" etc. Then, after first carefull analysis by the official investiagtion boards the very same laywers are nowhere to be seen until finally they come up with the offer of the insurance company. This may been then considerably lower then originally promised.
And this in turn can lead to such freakin actions very easily. Have in mind that according to common practize in Europe and legal interpretation you can only claim compensation for your actual economical damage. If parents lose their children through an accident they will not be able to proof any sort of economical damage. Same if adult children loose their (retired) parents.
US is completely different, specially because of pain and suffering compensation and punitive damages. But Europe does not acknowledge this. Further local living standarts of the victim have to be taking into consideration for any compensation. So, what is the "value" of a child in Bashkiria (?!)...??? What would be the financial compensation for a beloved wife over there? -
- As cynical as this may sound, this is one of the main issues in such a case and it may as well have played a role as only victims families have to go through this and it may further fog their brain and emotions.
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I am not sure if RA downlink will solve all the problems but I think it is good that Eurocontrol, as ATC Watcher pointed out, is looking into the subject.
They have a website
www.eurocontrol.int/ra-downlink
with some information and a short questionnaire seeking opinions from pilots and controllers.
They have a website
www.eurocontrol.int/ra-downlink
with some information and a short questionnaire seeking opinions from pilots and controllers.
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Luoto, I disagree with what you said about nationality.
With, say, less than 20 Danes working TWR/APP or ACC in Zuerich, by disclosing nationality (let alone releasing other details) Skyguide made it far easier for the media to identify the controller concerned.
There is no reason to expose a controller to the media circus. Any judgement should be from the results of a fair investigation NOT poorly informed sensationalism.
With, say, less than 20 Danes working TWR/APP or ACC in Zuerich, by disclosing nationality (let alone releasing other details) Skyguide made it far easier for the media to identify the controller concerned.
There is no reason to expose a controller to the media circus. Any judgement should be from the results of a fair investigation NOT poorly informed sensationalism.
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Firstly;
My sincere condolences to all those who have suffered through this unfortunate collection of circumstances. Life as we know it is more fragile than we often would like to believe and the protection thereof should always be paramount in our missions, whatever those missions might be.
With regards to the cause of the accident;
I am firmly of the opinion (as others seem to agree) that the system as a whole is really to blame. That is to say that the rate at which the traffic levels are increasing is rather phenominal. In the old days, ATC's were expected to identify and resolve all the conflicts on their own, there was no MTCD, STCA, TCAS, SSR, CFU etc....... There were fewer restrictions on working hours, traffic levels on a frequency at any given time...
If it were one of those controllers working at the time, we would probably not be sitting here today discussing this issue.
The problem IMHO, is that because we have strived to use technology wherever we can to improve safety, we have reduced the the emphasis on individual controller abilities. I am not saying that the ATC in this instance was less than capable (OF THE STANDARD TO WHICH HE WAS HELD).
When the system relies on technology to replace the (previously) basic skills of ATC's, it is incumbent upon that system to ensure that the redundancy levels are such that the individual(s) will NEVER be left without them.
ATC's are working less aircraft in smaller sectors to reduce risk, coverage area and frequency congestion, these are all the result of increased traffic levels. It is an understandable solution/reaction. Part of the problem may well be that the "Seat of your pants" ATC's of old, that are now running the show, do not realise how much less equipped the modern ATC's are when it comes to skills.
The technology is neccessary to keep the traffic moving, that is not in doubt, but if the system cannot ensure 100% redundancy, then the ATC's must be held to a standard which allows them to reasonably handle their worst nightmare when it comes down to the wire.
Invictus
My sincere condolences to all those who have suffered through this unfortunate collection of circumstances. Life as we know it is more fragile than we often would like to believe and the protection thereof should always be paramount in our missions, whatever those missions might be.
With regards to the cause of the accident;
I am firmly of the opinion (as others seem to agree) that the system as a whole is really to blame. That is to say that the rate at which the traffic levels are increasing is rather phenominal. In the old days, ATC's were expected to identify and resolve all the conflicts on their own, there was no MTCD, STCA, TCAS, SSR, CFU etc....... There were fewer restrictions on working hours, traffic levels on a frequency at any given time...
If it were one of those controllers working at the time, we would probably not be sitting here today discussing this issue.
The problem IMHO, is that because we have strived to use technology wherever we can to improve safety, we have reduced the the emphasis on individual controller abilities. I am not saying that the ATC in this instance was less than capable (OF THE STANDARD TO WHICH HE WAS HELD).
When the system relies on technology to replace the (previously) basic skills of ATC's, it is incumbent upon that system to ensure that the redundancy levels are such that the individual(s) will NEVER be left without them.
ATC's are working less aircraft in smaller sectors to reduce risk, coverage area and frequency congestion, these are all the result of increased traffic levels. It is an understandable solution/reaction. Part of the problem may well be that the "Seat of your pants" ATC's of old, that are now running the show, do not realise how much less equipped the modern ATC's are when it comes to skills.
The technology is neccessary to keep the traffic moving, that is not in doubt, but if the system cannot ensure 100% redundancy, then the ATC's must be held to a standard which allows them to reasonably handle their worst nightmare when it comes down to the wire.
Invictus
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The European controllers associations and Unions received today a long letter from the Swiss controllers asking for a small symbolic action during P.N. fumeral , next Friday at 1200.
Many Airports and Control centres in Europe are expecting to do something ( like a minute of silence on the R/T or a pause in the take offs )at that time.
They also ask not to name the controller and respect this wish.
Many Airports and Control centres in Europe are expecting to do something ( like a minute of silence on the R/T or a pause in the take offs )at that time.
They also ask not to name the controller and respect this wish.
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Dunno Invictus, "the good ol' days", if they ever existed, had a different set of issues. For one, it was unlikely that all aircraft would be at exactly where they're supposed to be (which reduces the big sky considerably). For another, there are a lot more aircraft in the sky.
Whenever you have people doing a complicated task, "tunnel vision"/task saturation is a threat. For that reason, experience, usually experience from significant loss of life, has built in redundancies, and these have been designed, not as crutches, but as "wake up calls". You don't train people to rely on those warnings; you train them to avoid them, and if they happen, to heed them. Any warning system that triggers on trivial events (e.g., Internet Explorer security warnings) is useless.
In this case, a series of improbable failures occurred. Some of them disturb me in terms of how privatization and ATC management runs in Europe. From the BFU preliminary report, it appears that what happened to the ATCO was a classic example of how task saturation can be like drowning in a half-inch of water.
Ultimately, however, ATC isn't enough, and the two aircraft in question carried a failsafe system for when ATC fails. The Tu154 crew ignored a TCAS RA and elected to follow the ATCO instead. Yes, it's a sudden emergency three hours into a flight, in the middle of the night, through quiet airspace, but for whatever reason (training, disposition), if the BFU preliminary findings are correct, they made the wrong call.
I wouldn't exonerate the media either. It's very easy to explain the accident as an ATCO alone at the post, with dead phone lines and a warning system offline. And Xenophobia can only add journalistic fuel to the flames. It doesn't take much of a stretch either. Anyone else remember a BOAC Trident that "failed to yield" to an ascending jet at a crossing in Yugoslavia? The public bias in Eastern Europe is already going to be for discrimination against them in Western European countries, and it's going to be founded on centuries of mutual discrimination. All they have to do is play up the "It's standard procedure to ignore machines and listen to humans" angle (much along the same lines as "being a good pilot, he ignored his instruments and went by his own senses" resonates with the general publics), imply some bias, and all of a sudden, the ATCO is the convenient fall guy. He didn't deserve this.
Whenever you have people doing a complicated task, "tunnel vision"/task saturation is a threat. For that reason, experience, usually experience from significant loss of life, has built in redundancies, and these have been designed, not as crutches, but as "wake up calls". You don't train people to rely on those warnings; you train them to avoid them, and if they happen, to heed them. Any warning system that triggers on trivial events (e.g., Internet Explorer security warnings) is useless.
In this case, a series of improbable failures occurred. Some of them disturb me in terms of how privatization and ATC management runs in Europe. From the BFU preliminary report, it appears that what happened to the ATCO was a classic example of how task saturation can be like drowning in a half-inch of water.
Ultimately, however, ATC isn't enough, and the two aircraft in question carried a failsafe system for when ATC fails. The Tu154 crew ignored a TCAS RA and elected to follow the ATCO instead. Yes, it's a sudden emergency three hours into a flight, in the middle of the night, through quiet airspace, but for whatever reason (training, disposition), if the BFU preliminary findings are correct, they made the wrong call.
I wouldn't exonerate the media either. It's very easy to explain the accident as an ATCO alone at the post, with dead phone lines and a warning system offline. And Xenophobia can only add journalistic fuel to the flames. It doesn't take much of a stretch either. Anyone else remember a BOAC Trident that "failed to yield" to an ascending jet at a crossing in Yugoslavia? The public bias in Eastern Europe is already going to be for discrimination against them in Western European countries, and it's going to be founded on centuries of mutual discrimination. All they have to do is play up the "It's standard procedure to ignore machines and listen to humans" angle (much along the same lines as "being a good pilot, he ignored his instruments and went by his own senses" resonates with the general publics), imply some bias, and all of a sudden, the ATCO is the convenient fall guy. He didn't deserve this.
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Eggs P. I don't want to focus on this case and personalise it or make wrongful judgements. However you assume that any company at the centre of a "problem" would necessarily want to keep its doors closed and stop information leaking that might divert, even a little bit, the attention from the corporate office/rs. I AM NOT saying this is the case here.
Look to motives. Why do many people post many messages on PPRUNE... what do they hope to achieve by doing. That's life sadly.
Look to motives. Why do many people post many messages on PPRUNE... what do they hope to achieve by doing. That's life sadly.
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Firstly, DingerX... well said!
Secondly, Luoto:
Actually what I was tying to say was that Skyguide may have been too ready to disclose information at times. Whether this was out of a wish to divert attention from the company itself or merely a clumsy press office, I would not like to say.
My view is that no personally identifying information should have been released. I would argue that a company has a duty of care towards its employees. In ATC those employees are carrying out tasks which inherently entail some degree of risk.
As has already been stated: "to err is human". However professional we strive to be, mistakes will on occaision be made.
Commercial or other pressures may also influence working practices and affect the overall system. For instance staffing levels or equipment standards determined by accountants and engineers rather than the controllers who are at the "sharp end". The possible examples are endless.
Aside from gross negligence, I believe that human or systematic error should be covered by corporate responsibilty. That is my personal view. The true legal situation may be different. Professionally I am concerned about individual controllers "carrying the can" for what should be blamed upon a company.
Like you, I do not wish to enter into a debate over the details of this particular event. The official report is due out in March. That may be a more appropriate time.
I posted on this thread after taking offence when the controllers in Zuerich were criticised by 694c and Berenger Saunier.
What happened to PN was terrible and I wish to pass on my sincere condolences to his family, friends and colleagues.
Secondly, Luoto:
Actually what I was tying to say was that Skyguide may have been too ready to disclose information at times. Whether this was out of a wish to divert attention from the company itself or merely a clumsy press office, I would not like to say.
My view is that no personally identifying information should have been released. I would argue that a company has a duty of care towards its employees. In ATC those employees are carrying out tasks which inherently entail some degree of risk.
As has already been stated: "to err is human". However professional we strive to be, mistakes will on occaision be made.
Commercial or other pressures may also influence working practices and affect the overall system. For instance staffing levels or equipment standards determined by accountants and engineers rather than the controllers who are at the "sharp end". The possible examples are endless.
Aside from gross negligence, I believe that human or systematic error should be covered by corporate responsibilty. That is my personal view. The true legal situation may be different. Professionally I am concerned about individual controllers "carrying the can" for what should be blamed upon a company.
Like you, I do not wish to enter into a debate over the details of this particular event. The official report is due out in March. That may be a more appropriate time.
I posted on this thread after taking offence when the controllers in Zuerich were criticised by 694c and Berenger Saunier.
What happened to PN was terrible and I wish to pass on my sincere condolences to his family, friends and colleagues.
