ATCO murdered in Zurich (Merged)
The Original Party Animal
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Berenger Saunier,
Pretty simplistic view you've got there. There were several factors contributing to the crash, to weigh them is the job of the investigators, everything else remains speculation.
Just a few notes: No TCAS, no crash. If Russian crew follows TCAS RA, no crash.
And remember: TCAS is a last resort tool. Follow it, inform the ATCO that you do, and everything's fine.
Besides, suggesting that the killer's action was in some way justified leaves me lost for words...
Pretty simplistic view you've got there. There were several factors contributing to the crash, to weigh them is the job of the investigators, everything else remains speculation.
Just a few notes: No TCAS, no crash. If Russian crew follows TCAS RA, no crash.
And remember: TCAS is a last resort tool. Follow it, inform the ATCO that you do, and everything's fine.
Besides, suggesting that the killer's action was in some way justified leaves me lost for words...
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Yes, accountability.
I merely hoped to suggest that were they your wife and two children plummeting to earth over Bodensee, Spuds, your attitude might be somewhat different. I landed at FDH just before the collision on July 1st 2002 and so my interest is acute. Your comment about TCAS is way off, I'm afraid. We of the west are trained to obey TCAS no matter what. Russian aviators, consummate professionals in my experience (both civil and military), are trained to obey ATC instructions as a resolution of last resort. Besides, who among us with desperate ATC screaming into our headsets "descend, descend now" would ignore that and obey and TCAS RA to climb?
Simplistic Spuds? Have another think. JUSTICE.
Simplistic Spuds? Have another think. JUSTICE.
...the thin end thereof
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In addition to: 'No TCAS, no crash. If Russian crew follows TCAS RA, no crash.' :
If Russian Captain's decision to follow TCAS was not over-ruled by check Captain sitting behind him, no crash.
If other ATCO not away from workstation taking a break, no crash.
If PN not put under unfair pressure to agree to allow telephone engineers to work that night (after his shift had begun), inadvertantly taking down the phone system so that the system actually scrambled the number PN was dialling when calling for assistance to handover A/C to next centre, no crash.
If incoming call system working so that other ATCers trying to warn him of conflict get through, no crash.
If Skyguide's conflict alert system working, no crash.
More than anything he was the victim of very bad luck. He was not without blame - he should have called his colleague back when it got busy - he should not have tried to do two jobs at once - but even then he was merely trying to be a 'team player' by allowing his colleague the break. To blame him, and him alone, and to suggest 'justice has been served' by this apalling act is indeed very simplistic and distasteful in the extreme. Having said that, none of my family members died in this accident and I might feel differently if they had. In which case I would not be in a good position to hand out 'justice'.
If Russian Captain's decision to follow TCAS was not over-ruled by check Captain sitting behind him, no crash.
If other ATCO not away from workstation taking a break, no crash.
If PN not put under unfair pressure to agree to allow telephone engineers to work that night (after his shift had begun), inadvertantly taking down the phone system so that the system actually scrambled the number PN was dialling when calling for assistance to handover A/C to next centre, no crash.
If incoming call system working so that other ATCers trying to warn him of conflict get through, no crash.
If Skyguide's conflict alert system working, no crash.
More than anything he was the victim of very bad luck. He was not without blame - he should have called his colleague back when it got busy - he should not have tried to do two jobs at once - but even then he was merely trying to be a 'team player' by allowing his colleague the break. To blame him, and him alone, and to suggest 'justice has been served' by this apalling act is indeed very simplistic and distasteful in the extreme. Having said that, none of my family members died in this accident and I might feel differently if they had. In which case I would not be in a good position to hand out 'justice'.
The Original Party Animal
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Listen Berenger,
Don't get me started!
I was at the memorial service today, the widow was there as well. This terrible event is incomprehensible and unjustifiable!
With TCAS, ATCOs' instructions can't be a last resort tool!
We don't know if a crew follows RAs, unless we're told!
As soon as we are told, we're out of the picture, until separation has been reestablished.
It can't be that in some parts of the world, pilots have to follow TCAS, and in other parts, they have to follow ATC instructions.
The 757 descended according to the RA. The controller wasn't told until after 25 secs. Within those 25 secs he told the TU154 to descend, he was in charge of providing separation. His decision was, to clear the TU for descend. Had he known that the 757 was descending according to RA, he would have acted differently. Therefore I reiterate: Follow TCAS no matter what AND TELL US!
Don't get me started!
I was at the memorial service today, the widow was there as well. This terrible event is incomprehensible and unjustifiable!
With TCAS, ATCOs' instructions can't be a last resort tool!
We don't know if a crew follows RAs, unless we're told!
As soon as we are told, we're out of the picture, until separation has been reestablished.
It can't be that in some parts of the world, pilots have to follow TCAS, and in other parts, they have to follow ATC instructions.
The 757 descended according to the RA. The controller wasn't told until after 25 secs. Within those 25 secs he told the TU154 to descend, he was in charge of providing separation. His decision was, to clear the TU for descend. Had he known that the 757 was descending according to RA, he would have acted differently. Therefore I reiterate: Follow TCAS no matter what AND TELL US!
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Sounds like you had a dreadful day, Spuds. You make my point for me, though. Its all about training. Previous to the Lake Constance midair, Russian aircrew were trained to obey ATC instructions over TCAS RA'S. Since the accident however, inverse procedures apply. You must understand, Spuds, that for Russian aviators, TCAS is a relatively new innovation. Russian Air Traffic Controllers tend not to engineer midair collisions, after all.
That either crew were put nose to nose, same level, in airspace that attracts the highest air navigation charges on earth is beyond comprehension. PN accepted responsibility for the sector, and regardless of the mitigating circumstances, PN is responsible for the collision in his airspace.
No one likes death, SPUDS, but Air Traffic Controllers are, in my opinion, blissfully unaware of the impact of their conduct in air-conditioned comfort at €8000 (netto) per month.
The ZRH incident on Tuesday provides a timely analysis of action versus accountability.
I'm sorry for your loss, Spuds.....and for the loss of Russian children on their way to Spanish sunshine for the holiday of a lifetime.
That either crew were put nose to nose, same level, in airspace that attracts the highest air navigation charges on earth is beyond comprehension. PN accepted responsibility for the sector, and regardless of the mitigating circumstances, PN is responsible for the collision in his airspace.
No one likes death, SPUDS, but Air Traffic Controllers are, in my opinion, blissfully unaware of the impact of their conduct in air-conditioned comfort at €8000 (netto) per month.
The ZRH incident on Tuesday provides a timely analysis of action versus accountability.
I'm sorry for your loss, Spuds.....and for the loss of Russian children on their way to Spanish sunshine for the holiday of a lifetime.
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Monsieur Berenger Saunier,
You talk about JUSTICE in bold letters but you obviously are another person that does not know what he is talking about.
In the Western world (since you want to make a difference) you are presumed innocent until you are proven guilty . The final collision report is not yet out and the court case has not started yet either.
Who can assume PN was guilty of anything and decide to pass a death penalty on him , and execute the sentence himself ?
Is that your idea of JUSTICE (in bold letters) ?
You said you landed in FDH just prior the collision, were you by chance one of the pilot of the AEF 1135 ?
Because the main reason for allowing one person ond duty a ZRH was based on the fact that airports served by ZRH are closed at night. Someone requested a derogation for AEF and one of the main reasons why PN was overworked was that FDH unsheduled ( late ) inbound .
To paraphrase Wedge : No AEF inbound FDH at that time : no crash...
Gunship :
Since the collision ICAO had a frenzy of meetings and the procedures are now revised ( published since Nov 2003 ) now it clearly says that in case of contradiction between an ATC clearance and an RA , pilots should follow the RA. ( this was not mentionned as such before )
Also whatever you do you should never manoeuvre in the opposite sense of an RA ( that was always the case ) as there is at the moment a known flaw in the TCAS logic that will make things worse if you do so.
If you want to know more PM me.
You talk about JUSTICE in bold letters but you obviously are another person that does not know what he is talking about.
In the Western world (since you want to make a difference) you are presumed innocent until you are proven guilty . The final collision report is not yet out and the court case has not started yet either.
Who can assume PN was guilty of anything and decide to pass a death penalty on him , and execute the sentence himself ?
Is that your idea of JUSTICE (in bold letters) ?
You said you landed in FDH just prior the collision, were you by chance one of the pilot of the AEF 1135 ?
Because the main reason for allowing one person ond duty a ZRH was based on the fact that airports served by ZRH are closed at night. Someone requested a derogation for AEF and one of the main reasons why PN was overworked was that FDH unsheduled ( late ) inbound .
To paraphrase Wedge : No AEF inbound FDH at that time : no crash...
Gunship :
Since the collision ICAO had a frenzy of meetings and the procedures are now revised ( published since Nov 2003 ) now it clearly says that in case of contradiction between an ATC clearance and an RA , pilots should follow the RA. ( this was not mentionned as such before )
Also whatever you do you should never manoeuvre in the opposite sense of an RA ( that was always the case ) as there is at the moment a known flaw in the TCAS logic that will make things worse if you do so.
If you want to know more PM me.
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With all due respect, ATC Voyeur, I know exactly what I'm talking about. A question for you, though. Do you, as a professional ATC (presuming your affectation equates to reality) accept the consequences of your professional conduct...especially when you screw up? Sat there in air-conditioned bliss at ground level, do you presume to insulate yourself and your colleagues from the consequences of manifest incompetence?
The notion of justice is the glue that binds our society together. It applies equally to you, as it does to we of the air.....as PN has found out.
The notion of justice is the glue that binds our society together. It applies equally to you, as it does to we of the air.....as PN has found out.
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Berenger
Where I live, Justice is delivered by a judge after a trial in front of 12 of your peers. Did this happen here?
This was vigilantism at its worst. A pure "mob-mentality". While I understand from reading various newspapers that this gentleman lost his entire family on the flight which is sad beyond belief, that doesn't give him the right to play Judge, Jury and Executioner....nor will it ever.
What the controller did or didn't do in this case is not the issue. We have an individual here who decided in his own mind who was to blame and took actions that will always be irreversible. THAT IS WRONG...and always will be !!!
Newarksmells
This was vigilantism at its worst. A pure "mob-mentality". While I understand from reading various newspapers that this gentleman lost his entire family on the flight which is sad beyond belief, that doesn't give him the right to play Judge, Jury and Executioner....nor will it ever.
What the controller did or didn't do in this case is not the issue. We have an individual here who decided in his own mind who was to blame and took actions that will always be irreversible. THAT IS WRONG...and always will be !!!
Newarksmells
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Thanks !
ATC Watcher:
Since the collision ICAO had a frenzy of meetings and the procedures are now revised ( published since Nov 2003 ) now it clearly says that in case of contradiction between an ATC clearance and an RA , pilots should follow the RA. ( this was not mentionned as such before )
Also whatever you do you should never manoeuvre in the opposite sense of an RA ( that was always the case ) as there is at the moment a known flaw in the TCAS logic that will make things worse if you do so.
If you want to know more PM me.
Tx ATC Watcher.
Ok you see that is one of my points was that in the program (right or wrong) - The ATC (RIP) was made the culprit and it all was filmed in your control room ?
They also made us believe that HE was the one that gave the order to repair the phones and HE was the one that said they can take the main radar offline.
Once again - I am the first to say - wait for the official report but we talk about a program being shot inside the facility and they made as if he was the culprit.
Must admit - they clearly showed the conflict between the pilot and the "test pilot" !
Wish I can see it now afterwards what we talked about as I did not even know about the incident till I saw it earlier this week !
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Berenger
Perhaps you'd be kind enough to go into a little more detail about what you meant when you said this. I'm sensitive to the possibility that you don't mean it exactly as written and I would like to be as clear as possible on your intent.
Again, just so we're clear before we continue, what you mean by this is that the respect you're according ATC Watcher (that which you believe is due him) is none. Is this what you intended?
Just want to be clear...
Thanks,
Dave
Russian Air Traffic Controllers tend not to engineer midair collisions, after all.
With all due respect, ATC Voyeur...presuming your affectation equates to reality...
Just want to be clear...
Thanks,
Dave
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Russian Air traffic Controllers tend not to engineer midair collisions, after all
http://www.super70s.com/Super70s/Tec...(Aeroflot).asp
Nuff said.
GunsssR4ever
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126.7
Lo 126,7
Maybe I should disqualify my statements as I think "african".
An eye for an eye is as normal as eating and drinking.
Once again I condemn the killing - but somehow I can "understand" .
I "killed" a pax. Not my fault at all. I was last in the que to see her body being put into the pack of a VC 10 and flown back to England.
The guilty feeling nearly killed me. I only asked to see her grieved parents or talked to them. They denied me that.
I was completely cleared of all blame but I felt like a "killer" for a long while afterwards - believe me. Guilt is bad !
Maybe their denail to see them made me stronger and the guilt feeling is gone but did this happen with Africans i would have left the country - promise you !
On that matter - dunno if you guys know about the B 727 accident of Benin. The Lebanese owners is still in "hiding" in ... they know how Africa works .. sorry I know your incident was not Africa and maybe I am well of my point now ?
Yeah Guns I suppose I might also have visited the ATC's house. Who knows?
Lo 126,7
Maybe I should disqualify my statements as I think "african".
An eye for an eye is as normal as eating and drinking.
Once again I condemn the killing - but somehow I can "understand" .
I "killed" a pax. Not my fault at all. I was last in the que to see her body being put into the pack of a VC 10 and flown back to England.
The guilty feeling nearly killed me. I only asked to see her grieved parents or talked to them. They denied me that.
I was completely cleared of all blame but I felt like a "killer" for a long while afterwards - believe me. Guilt is bad !
Maybe their denail to see them made me stronger and the guilt feeling is gone but did this happen with Africans i would have left the country - promise you !
On that matter - dunno if you guys know about the B 727 accident of Benin. The Lebanese owners is still in "hiding" in ... they know how Africa works .. sorry I know your incident was not Africa and maybe I am well of my point now ?
Last edited by Gunship; 28th Feb 2004 at 05:30.
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Berenger
Thats the most offensive sh1t I've seen on this thread since 69somethings obnoxious post. If you are involved in professional aviation in any way then I hope you think long and hard about your rash comments. The collision was, as most accidents are, caused by a long chain of events. When the situation finally manifested itself upon the poor ATCO he was left with a 50:50 decision on who to climb and who to descend. Had he told the DHL to descend we'd have heard nothing more of that night.
You talk with sickening smugness of 'justice being served'. I can only hope that you never face a situation where the systems have failed around you and you are left with nothing more than 50:50 odds on safety or catastrophe. If you are a pilot then you are cosseted by the knowledge that you won't have to live with the consequences of your wrong decision. I make no apologies for saying that those of us who live in civilised societies find the murder of PN absolutely abhorrent. If you feel otherwise then I hope to God that I never have the misfortune to find myself in your loathesome company.
Thats the most offensive sh1t I've seen on this thread since 69somethings obnoxious post. If you are involved in professional aviation in any way then I hope you think long and hard about your rash comments. The collision was, as most accidents are, caused by a long chain of events. When the situation finally manifested itself upon the poor ATCO he was left with a 50:50 decision on who to climb and who to descend. Had he told the DHL to descend we'd have heard nothing more of that night.
You talk with sickening smugness of 'justice being served'. I can only hope that you never face a situation where the systems have failed around you and you are left with nothing more than 50:50 odds on safety or catastrophe. If you are a pilot then you are cosseted by the knowledge that you won't have to live with the consequences of your wrong decision. I make no apologies for saying that those of us who live in civilised societies find the murder of PN absolutely abhorrent. If you feel otherwise then I hope to God that I never have the misfortune to find myself in your loathesome company.
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RIP
G'day guys and gals,
Although I didn't know the ATC involved personally, I can tell you this news has devested and alarmed his workmates/friends from all over the world. The ATC grapevine at its best. I think we should stop, however, and have a look at why this thread was started. To relay the sad news of P's death. How about we stop pointing fingers and laying blame and just say:
Farewell. Rest in peace.
If I were his wife reading this I would be heartbroken. Hasn't everyone said enough yet? Yes, we owe the deceased the truth, but for God's sake, just wait until the findings are out. Then feel free to say what you want about who you want. Until then, respect people's feelings. If you want to say something nasty, start another thread. Nuf said.
NFR.
Although I didn't know the ATC involved personally, I can tell you this news has devested and alarmed his workmates/friends from all over the world. The ATC grapevine at its best. I think we should stop, however, and have a look at why this thread was started. To relay the sad news of P's death. How about we stop pointing fingers and laying blame and just say:
Farewell. Rest in peace.
If I were his wife reading this I would be heartbroken. Hasn't everyone said enough yet? Yes, we owe the deceased the truth, but for God's sake, just wait until the findings are out. Then feel free to say what you want about who you want. Until then, respect people's feelings. If you want to say something nasty, start another thread. Nuf said.
NFR.
Just a numbered other
Beringer
You are way off the mark, and gratuitously offensive, into the bargain.
Your dogmatic attitude demonstrates all that seems wrong in aviation, and your blind defence of all things East is illogical.
As someone else said, this accident was a failure of the system.
Guilt, if any, will be apportioned after the facts have been collated and sifted by the investigators. Until then EVERYONE involved has a presumption of innocence and NO_ONE disserves to be singled out by a vigilante and murdered.
You are a disgrace to our profession.
There is a grieving family in Switzerland, which has lost its husband and father. There is NO escuse for this, and my thoughts are with them.
I grieve also for the suspect's loss, but will never condone murder as a solution.
You are way off the mark, and gratuitously offensive, into the bargain.
Your dogmatic attitude demonstrates all that seems wrong in aviation, and your blind defence of all things East is illogical.
As someone else said, this accident was a failure of the system.
Guilt, if any, will be apportioned after the facts have been collated and sifted by the investigators. Until then EVERYONE involved has a presumption of innocence and NO_ONE disserves to be singled out by a vigilante and murdered.
You are a disgrace to our profession.
There is a grieving family in Switzerland, which has lost its husband and father. There is NO escuse for this, and my thoughts are with them.
I grieve also for the suspect's loss, but will never condone murder as a solution.
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Beringer says :
Its all about training. Previous to the Lake Constance midair, Russian aircrew were trained to obey ATC instructions over TCAS RA'S. Since the accident however, inverse procedures apply. You must understand, Spuds, that for Russian aviators, TCAS is a relatively new innovation.
Its all about training. Previous to the Lake Constance midair, Russian aircrew were trained to obey ATC instructions over TCAS RA'S. Since the accident however, inverse procedures apply. You must understand, Spuds, that for Russian aviators, TCAS is a relatively new innovation.
Do I have it right (as I wish to sort this out in my own mind.)
Was there two different sets of rules before the fatal crash ?
If so ... why?
Just another point (as I said I have no Int flying experience).
Why do the controllers and pilots speak Swiss / German while the Internationally we are supposed to speak English ?
Was that not also a complication in the accident that the Russians could not follow other traffic ? I would be lost myself in the Swiss / German
The Original Party Animal
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Gunship,
We don't use swiss german on the frequency, only english.
As to why there were two sets of rules concerning the use of TCAS, you should ask ICAO...
We don't use swiss german on the frequency, only english.
As to why there were two sets of rules concerning the use of TCAS, you should ask ICAO...
GunsssR4ever
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Tx
Spuds McKenzie :
Gunship,
We don't use swiss german on the frequency, only english.
As to why there were two sets of rules concerning the use of TCAS, you should ask ICAO...
Thanks for clearing that SM. I am still confused then as the heading says : "transcript of original tape recording" But I see now your telephone conversations (in German / Swiss) was also added ... sorry I see now - tx for clearing it up !!
I got my duff - gen from this link that was quoted somewhere in this thread :http://aviation-safety.net/cvr/atc_20020701.pdf
Cheers,
Gunns
Gunship,
We don't use swiss german on the frequency, only english.
As to why there were two sets of rules concerning the use of TCAS, you should ask ICAO...
I got my duff - gen from this link that was quoted somewhere in this thread :http://aviation-safety.net/cvr/atc_20020701.pdf
Cheers,
Gunns