ATCO murdered in Zurich (Merged)
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694c you dumb a...hole.
The reason these guys didnt go to work was because they didnt sleep most of last night and had the courage to say that they wouldnt be able to provide a safe environment for aircrew to operate in. Its not because they are scared of showing their faces!! You dumb moron. They all gathered at the murdered chaps house to grieve the loss of a close friend in front of running cameras. Now the whole world knows what the rest of the guys that work here look like.
Or would you rather they come to work and we have another disaster on our hands?? S
t for brains!!!!
The reason these guys didnt go to work was because they didnt sleep most of last night and had the courage to say that they wouldnt be able to provide a safe environment for aircrew to operate in. Its not because they are scared of showing their faces!! You dumb moron. They all gathered at the murdered chaps house to grieve the loss of a close friend in front of running cameras. Now the whole world knows what the rest of the guys that work here look like.
Or would you rather they come to work and we have another disaster on our hands?? S
t for brains!!!!
Last edited by ZRH; 26th Feb 2004 at 05:49.
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Words fail me. What a dark, sad day. As with many of the contributors to this thread, my toughts are first and foremost with his wife and kids. God give them strength. On behalf of his colleagues at EDYY, our condolences to his friends at Skyguide.
649c ..... you truly are a small-minded to$$er!
649c ..... you truly are a small-minded to$$er!
Swounger
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Well Reuters, although not exactly unbiased, is suggesting the murder was linked:
Controller Blamed in Germany Crash Killed
Wed Feb 25, 1:46 PM ET
ZURICH, Switzerland - An air traffic controller who ordered a passenger plane into the path of another aircraft over Germany — a crash that killed dozens of Russian children — was stabbed to death Wednesday in front of his wife.
The attacker was a heavily built man aged 50-55, possibly Eastern European, with graying hair and a three-day stubble. He showed up at the controller's home Tuesday night, spoke briefly to the controller in broken German, killed him, and fled on foot.
Beyond that description, police said they have no leads on the killer but are investigating a possible link between the stabbing and the crash 19 months ago that killed 71 people. The accident was blamed on the controller, a 36-year-old Danish citizen who has never been named by authorities.
"There wasn't much said," District Attorney Pascal Gossner told The Associated Press. He declined to say what words were exchanged between the killer and victim, because it is part of the investigation.
He also said there were other people there at the time of the murder, but would not say if they included the couple's three children. The controller died at the scene, police said.
"We are looking at all sorts of aspects," said Gossner of possible motives — including that the murder was connected to the July 1, 2002, crash over southern Germany, an area run by Swiss air traffic.
Controller Blamed in Germany Crash Killed
Wed Feb 25, 1:46 PM ET
ZURICH, Switzerland - An air traffic controller who ordered a passenger plane into the path of another aircraft over Germany — a crash that killed dozens of Russian children — was stabbed to death Wednesday in front of his wife.
The attacker was a heavily built man aged 50-55, possibly Eastern European, with graying hair and a three-day stubble. He showed up at the controller's home Tuesday night, spoke briefly to the controller in broken German, killed him, and fled on foot.
Beyond that description, police said they have no leads on the killer but are investigating a possible link between the stabbing and the crash 19 months ago that killed 71 people. The accident was blamed on the controller, a 36-year-old Danish citizen who has never been named by authorities.
"There wasn't much said," District Attorney Pascal Gossner told The Associated Press. He declined to say what words were exchanged between the killer and victim, because it is part of the investigation.
He also said there were other people there at the time of the murder, but would not say if they included the couple's three children. The controller died at the scene, police said.
"We are looking at all sorts of aspects," said Gossner of possible motives — including that the murder was connected to the July 1, 2002, crash over southern Germany, an area run by Swiss air traffic.
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649c, if your comments were made to make you notorious, congrats , u got it pal, but for the worse reasons of all. Grow up.
Just found this one on a wild search;
http://aviation-safety.net/cvr/atc_20020701.pdf
My deepest condolences to the family of your coleague.
GDL
Just found this one on a wild search;
http://aviation-safety.net/cvr/atc_20020701.pdf
My deepest condolences to the family of your coleague.
GDL
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Ok you drew me out you people...the Capt on the DHL 757 was my colleague...If anybody had an axe to grind, it wouldbe me ..believe me..my wife got called out to inform the Capt's wife...so all you people PLEASE...PLEASE.... let the people doing the investigation do their jobs...if you know me..and trust me people do....if it;s b.s. trust o'le ironbutt to post it -pls....did I ever let you down?....live it like I am and will my whole career got changed believe you folks' believe me, the truth WILL come out..it wont go away....just bear with us....."good things come to those who wait".... 
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649c,
Look, we all live with the possibility of an accident. There's a world of difference between showing 'grit' and carrying on after an accident, and having one of your colleagues *murdered*, in circumstances which give rise to strong suspicions it was related to his (and your!) job. If you can't see that, shame on you.
ironbutt57,
Well said.
R1
Look, we all live with the possibility of an accident. There's a world of difference between showing 'grit' and carrying on after an accident, and having one of your colleagues *murdered*, in circumstances which give rise to strong suspicions it was related to his (and your!) job. If you can't see that, shame on you.
ironbutt57,
Well said.
R1
Last edited by PPRuNe Towers; 26th Feb 2004 at 16:20.
More than just an ATCO
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Flower, in total agreement.
649c, please find another constellation to play in.
My feelings tonight are with his family and his colleagues.
May your gods go with you
649c, please find another constellation to play in.
My feelings tonight are with his family and his colleagues.
May your gods go with you
Pegase Driver
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Day 3 : The shock is still there and the questions are starting to be clearer in the minds .Let's not wander off the facts :
The link between the collision and the murder is still not established. there are other possibilities .
But every ATCO around the world cannot take it off its mind that it is...
The media speculation is at its worst .
The Reuters Feb25 , 1:46 PM ET newswire ( copies somewhere earlier here ): Controller blamed for Collision " has made headlines all around the world.
The first para of that wire is even worse :
__________________________________________________
ZURICH, Switzerland - An air traffic controller who ordered a passenger plane into the path of another aircraft over Germany — a crash that killed dozens of Russian children — was stabbed to death Wednesday in front of his wife.
___________________________________________________
That sentence , every word of it , is terrible. I allows speculation and disregard the investigation findings.
So the world, who will never read the final report, will always remember him as the guy that caused the collision.
on the guy that made that wire. I hope he meets his familly one day face to face.Although we all agreed to keep his name away from everything , some newspapers, (including The Times in London yesterday) published it together with the placed he lived. What does this bring to the public ? I tought that , especially in the UK , after the Dr Kelly affair the press would be more sensitive with revealing names of individuals .
In the Russian media , he is portrayed as the only person responsible for the collision and for the death of 64 kids.
The representatives of the famillies said they dis not want him killed just brought to justice ( Interfax 25.2. )
Stange world who decide who is guilty and pass sentence before knowing the facts...as the report is not yet out.
Oh yes, there will be consequences for us all .
The effects of which are only beginning to emmerge.
finally 649c : I have seen with my own eyes the effect of SR111 to SWR staff and crew. You do not know what you are talking about.
You are obviously a very strong person that does not need councelling and despise those who are temporalily affected by a trauma.
I bet life will have a surprise for you one day, for whatever reason, and you will remember then what you have said here.
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Words cannot express...
A family denied their Husband/Dad and for what? The poor kids, what ever will they think?
Rest in peace!
Irrespective of what the report says, NO ATC would knowingly contribute to a MAC.
To have a life taken in this way (As speculated) when he was just doing his job (In very difficult circumstances from what I hear) is just obscene.
‘There but for the grace of God………..’
My thoughts are with the Family and the Guys and Gals at Skyguide.
ATCO Australia
Rest in peace!
Irrespective of what the report says, NO ATC would knowingly contribute to a MAC.
To have a life taken in this way (As speculated) when he was just doing his job (In very difficult circumstances from what I hear) is just obscene.
‘There but for the grace of God………..’
My thoughts are with the Family and the Guys and Gals at Skyguide.
ATCO Australia
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Sad, sad, sad!
I believe that it is quite clear that this ATCO did not cause that accident! He was involved in it, as were the pilots of the aircraft and the children on board, and everyone else that played a role. The cause of that accident (the official version is due to be out soon) in my opinion was a simple failure of a number of systems, some equipment and procedures. Had a different ATCO been sat in the seat at the time, the likelihood of a different outcome is minimal. I guess that he went to his grave carrying the blame. I hope that his wife and children will be allowed to bury him, knowing that it was not his fault!
All the pathetic b!tching and bickering doesn't help either. What will help is that if you complain to your MP and local newspaper/radio/TV station each time that they make unfounded, inaccurate and blatantly sensationalist reports.
RIP my friend.
All the pathetic b!tching and bickering doesn't help either. What will help is that if you complain to your MP and local newspaper/radio/TV station each time that they make unfounded, inaccurate and blatantly sensationalist reports.
RIP my friend.
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I would just like to add my condolences to those of almost everyone else here. Unfortunately, I never had the pleasure of meeting the controller involved - my loss. My heart goes out to his family and all my colleagues in LSZH.
649c
Your comments are beneath contempt. Clearly you have little or no understanding of the effects of human factors in the realm of aviation. I suggest you do us all a favour and fck off back to whatever rock you hide under.
649c
Your comments are beneath contempt. Clearly you have little or no understanding of the effects of human factors in the realm of aviation. I suggest you do us all a favour and f
ck off back to whatever rock you hide under.
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It has just been announced that the police have arrested a man in connenction with the murder. No further details until a news conference scheduled for 14:30 local ( 13:30 UTC ).
Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum
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Arrest in controller murder case
Again, from BBC news:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3489166.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3489166.stm
A lawyer for families of the crash victims said they were distressed at ... a connection being made between their tragedy and the murder.
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The Nr Fairy,
Looks like the BEEB has changed its tune.
I've just heard the 12:00 news on radio 4 and the words used were:
"the controller who was on duty at the time of the crash".
My deepest sympathy goes out to all involved.
New F/O
Looks like the BEEB has changed its tune.
I've just heard the 12:00 news on radio 4 and the words used were:
"the controller who was on duty at the time of the crash".
My deepest sympathy goes out to all involved.
New F/O
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Lots of high emotions here.
Just a point about the CAUSE of the crash.
Ultimately, the only people who could cause or prevent the actual collision were the two crews involved. They were the only people with the ability to influence or change the flightpaths of the two aircraft up until the point where they collided. In pure factual terms, then, the aircrews caused (or did not prevent) the collision because they allowed their aircraft to fly into another one. That may be hard to take (especially for ironbutt 57 and others who knew the crews), but the ATCO had no physical control over the aircraft. He could only give what he thought were the best instructions to avoid. He could have no knowledge of what TCAS was advising. That is the difficulty of our profession: we can give instructions, but ultimately we can only watch what happens. This, and the tragedy of losing a colleague, will probably weigh heavy on the shoulders of all ATCOs, but particularly Skyguide personnel. Nothing wimpish about that.
Further than this, there is of course always a chain of events which lead to an accident, and there are many elements, of which the actions of the ATCO are only a few, which all ended in the tragedy. The official report will of course cover all these, and cause will be apportioned. I cannot foresee a situation where blame will be placed in only one area, but I am not party to the official investigation!
If it is decided that the crew of the Tu154 were in error for following ATC instructions against a continuing TCAS instruction, then I fear what will happen in Russia... (or even if it is decided that the DHL crew persisted with following an RA which patently wasn't working..)
I'm not trying to stir it up or apportion blame, I just think we should not lose sight of the facts as far as we know them.
Just a point about the CAUSE of the crash.
Ultimately, the only people who could cause or prevent the actual collision were the two crews involved. They were the only people with the ability to influence or change the flightpaths of the two aircraft up until the point where they collided. In pure factual terms, then, the aircrews caused (or did not prevent) the collision because they allowed their aircraft to fly into another one. That may be hard to take (especially for ironbutt 57 and others who knew the crews), but the ATCO had no physical control over the aircraft. He could only give what he thought were the best instructions to avoid. He could have no knowledge of what TCAS was advising. That is the difficulty of our profession: we can give instructions, but ultimately we can only watch what happens. This, and the tragedy of losing a colleague, will probably weigh heavy on the shoulders of all ATCOs, but particularly Skyguide personnel. Nothing wimpish about that.
Further than this, there is of course always a chain of events which lead to an accident, and there are many elements, of which the actions of the ATCO are only a few, which all ended in the tragedy. The official report will of course cover all these, and cause will be apportioned. I cannot foresee a situation where blame will be placed in only one area, but I am not party to the official investigation!
If it is decided that the crew of the Tu154 were in error for following ATC instructions against a continuing TCAS instruction, then I fear what will happen in Russia... (or even if it is decided that the DHL crew persisted with following an RA which patently wasn't working..)
I'm not trying to stir it up or apportion blame, I just think we should not lose sight of the facts as far as we know them.
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Accident
EITS
I am not sure I entirely agree that the pilots are the only ones who could cause or save the day.
Is it not true to say that for the accident to occur a number of 'hoops' had to line up? Sure, the russian aircrew lined a couple up (in good faith) but didn't the ATC system also line a few up? The circumstances this poor chap found himself in, disabled systems, 2 jobs on seperate screens etc. were not of the aircrew's making. Responsibility for that surely lies with the Skyguide management?
Point 4
I am not sure I entirely agree that the pilots are the only ones who could cause or save the day.
Is it not true to say that for the accident to occur a number of 'hoops' had to line up? Sure, the russian aircrew lined a couple up (in good faith) but didn't the ATC system also line a few up? The circumstances this poor chap found himself in, disabled systems, 2 jobs on seperate screens etc. were not of the aircrew's making. Responsibility for that surely lies with the Skyguide management?
Point 4
Pegase Driver
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point 4 :
In this case here were 13 of these "hoops "as you call them .
Each one of them , taken individually, was not serious enough to cause a collision but had any of them not been there the collision would most probably not have happenned.
Blaming the action of a single individual ( ZRH controller, Russian pilot F [or even DHL pilot F] , ZRH Ops manager, ZRH system manager , TCAS designer, etc.. etc... ) is totally wrong and completely irrelevant.
A sytem failed, not one person.
I hope the report will come out soon, but I fear it will be delayed now.
In this case here were 13 of these "hoops "as you call them .
Each one of them , taken individually, was not serious enough to cause a collision but had any of them not been there the collision would most probably not have happenned.
Blaming the action of a single individual ( ZRH controller, Russian pilot F [or even DHL pilot F] , ZRH Ops manager, ZRH system manager , TCAS designer, etc.. etc... ) is totally wrong and completely irrelevant.
A sytem failed, not one person.
I hope the report will come out soon, but I fear it will be delayed now.
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Please, lets not get into a debate about blame again. This was done a long time ago on another thread and got out of hand with poor facts and lots of speculation. Now is not the time.
Remember what has just happenned here.
A member of the aviation community has just sadly and tragically lost his life. Let the final report fill in all of the many gaps, meantime let people mourn for a collegue/voice at the other end/husband and father.
May he Rest In Peace and his family, friends and collegues manage to recover from such awful events bestowed upon them. My thoughts go out.
Remember what has just happenned here.
A member of the aviation community has just sadly and tragically lost his life. Let the final report fill in all of the many gaps, meantime let people mourn for a collegue/voice at the other end/husband and father.
May he Rest In Peace and his family, friends and collegues manage to recover from such awful events bestowed upon them. My thoughts go out.