BACX for sale.
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"what company wouldn't having spent £70 million + on purchasing BRAL in the first place."
unquote
£70 million isnt alot really especially when you can get 3 slots in and out of heathrow for it at the prime times.... and the chance to try and make some money on the side with your own regional airline....
what ever the out come ( i know whats happening to me) the management at LHR must be happy to of secured all those 319's 737's and got rid of those RJ100's
as an after thought, id buy it/ into it i woulnt muck about either and yes i do think i could do a better job.
wx
"what company wouldn't having spent £70 million + on purchasing BRAL in the first place."
unquote
£70 million isnt alot really especially when you can get 3 slots in and out of heathrow for it at the prime times.... and the chance to try and make some money on the side with your own regional airline....
what ever the out come ( i know whats happening to me) the management at LHR must be happy to of secured all those 319's 737's and got rid of those RJ100's
as an after thought, id buy it/ into it i woulnt muck about either and yes i do think i could do a better job.
wx
Last edited by GOBWX; 11th Nov 2003 at 20:23.
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Amazon Man - I also think I could do better than our current crop of so-called managers.
If you want to believe what they say, then so be it, but I suggest you consider the latest 180 u turn over mainline access carefully. It shows at the very least that what they say one day is incorrect the next.
Ref AM, it may be he has a course in 1 or 18 months, but it does show where both he and TDLF consider their imminent future to be.
With ref the sell off rumour, well, I guess keeping us out of mainline is as good an indication as MOST of need.
I don't suppose you're one of these dodgy deals done over 'promised' training positions on the RJ are you? More dodgy handshaking going on between the select few methinks!
If not, again, you may wish to consider the trust you want to put in ANYTHING coming from our management.
If you want to believe what they say, then so be it, but I suggest you consider the latest 180 u turn over mainline access carefully. It shows at the very least that what they say one day is incorrect the next.
Ref AM, it may be he has a course in 1 or 18 months, but it does show where both he and TDLF consider their imminent future to be.
With ref the sell off rumour, well, I guess keeping us out of mainline is as good an indication as MOST of need.
I don't suppose you're one of these dodgy deals done over 'promised' training positions on the RJ are you? More dodgy handshaking going on between the select few methinks!
If not, again, you may wish to consider the trust you want to put in ANYTHING coming from our management.
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(Quidnunc)
I would like to remind you and everyone that the first 'information' about the closure of PLH and NQY was here on PPRuNe, this was STRONGLY denied by BACX management, they even went as far to tell people that if they were to hear a rumour about them pulling out of NQY it was just a strategy to secure reduced charges similar to RyanAir.
The as if by magic the press drop the bombshell on a Friday and management finally get round to telling those affected on the Monday.
The actual closures on Oct 25th were handled as apallingly as everything else, did we really expect to have coverage in case of sickness and a management presence, not on a Saturday surely!
So my heart really does go out to those who are still hanging on to their jobs by the skin of their teeth, it may be time to jump before you're pushed!
Good Luck
I would like to remind you and everyone that the first 'information' about the closure of PLH and NQY was here on PPRuNe, this was STRONGLY denied by BACX management, they even went as far to tell people that if they were to hear a rumour about them pulling out of NQY it was just a strategy to secure reduced charges similar to RyanAir.
The as if by magic the press drop the bombshell on a Friday and management finally get round to telling those affected on the Monday.
The actual closures on Oct 25th were handled as apallingly as everything else, did we really expect to have coverage in case of sickness and a management presence, not on a Saturday surely!
So my heart really does go out to those who are still hanging on to their jobs by the skin of their teeth, it may be time to jump before you're pushed!
Good Luck
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Whatever the outcome or the reliability of the info there is little doubt amongst BA staff that cutbacks will be painfull once again this year ending and next year. We all await further announcements to that effect and there is no reason to doubt that the regions within the UK and thus BACX will have to make there contributions.
As has happened before LHR will be last on the list to make cuts and will suffer far less. One scheme already strongly points to outsourcing the staffing of all offline stations within the UK and mainland Europe, many of the stations having no directly employed BA reps. This will reflect far closely what the rest of the airlines are doing.
As has happened before LHR will be last on the list to make cuts and will suffer far less. One scheme already strongly points to outsourcing the staffing of all offline stations within the UK and mainland Europe, many of the stations having no directly employed BA reps. This will reflect far closely what the rest of the airlines are doing.
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I fear HZ is absolutely right. BACX will be closed down / given away rather than sold. Pity in many respects - including my job - because we are intrinsically cheaper to operate and hence more profitable than mainline as such.
(excluding Club and First long haul, but not much of that around over the pond these days!)
Trouble is, we are far weaker in union terms, pathetically weak in home grown management terms (all squabbling over their own futures as 'BA' managers) and unfortunately under the cosh of 'baby' mainline managers all trying to prove their virility by competeing to see who can swing the axe hardest.
Maybe, and its a big maybe, there may be something left at MAN/BHX to sell or give away, but don't hold your breath. If the thread about Mytravel is true, there could be the biggest surplus of qualified pilots around in living memory in the near future.
Xmas approaches, so doubtless so does an announcement again.
(excluding Club and First long haul, but not much of that around over the pond these days!)
Trouble is, we are far weaker in union terms, pathetically weak in home grown management terms (all squabbling over their own futures as 'BA' managers) and unfortunately under the cosh of 'baby' mainline managers all trying to prove their virility by competeing to see who can swing the axe hardest.
Maybe, and its a big maybe, there may be something left at MAN/BHX to sell or give away, but don't hold your breath. If the thread about Mytravel is true, there could be the biggest surplus of qualified pilots around in living memory in the near future.
Xmas approaches, so doubtless so does an announcement again.
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"Cheaper and more profitable than mainline?"
Well ok what happened to yesterday evenings BRU MAN service then? From what I could see the glorious 4 engined regional jet was tech and the passengers had to be flown on an Airbus to LHR
In order to make a profit you have to provide a reliable service. How much has BA had to pay Titan this year in sub charter fees?
Safety is also something of an issue. How many RJ's have suffered from heavy landings this year? What are the costs of cancellations repairs and what damage does that do to the regional business?
If BACX is as good as some of you think... then this is just a rumour and you have nothing to fear... so don't bother replying to the above.
Regards BP
Well ok what happened to yesterday evenings BRU MAN service then? From what I could see the glorious 4 engined regional jet was tech and the passengers had to be flown on an Airbus to LHR
In order to make a profit you have to provide a reliable service. How much has BA had to pay Titan this year in sub charter fees?
Safety is also something of an issue. How many RJ's have suffered from heavy landings this year? What are the costs of cancellations repairs and what damage does that do to the regional business?
If BACX is as good as some of you think... then this is just a rumour and you have nothing to fear... so don't bother replying to the above.
Regards BP
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Hi Bigpants
I think I see where you are coming from. But I was in BHX when the Scarebus arrived, and I don't remember it's reliability being too fantastic at the time!
As far as heavy landings are concerned, I guess you are referring to 'tail scrapes' which I believe involve mostly LCY.
Can't remember the last time I saw an airbus on the ramp there!
As I said, I think I see where you are coming from, just try to rise above it!
Incidentally Pontiuspilot, if BACX doesn't make money, how can it be cheaper OR more profitable than Mainline??!
I think I see where you are coming from. But I was in BHX when the Scarebus arrived, and I don't remember it's reliability being too fantastic at the time!
As far as heavy landings are concerned, I guess you are referring to 'tail scrapes' which I believe involve mostly LCY.
Can't remember the last time I saw an airbus on the ramp there!
As I said, I think I see where you are coming from, just try to rise above it!
Incidentally Pontiuspilot, if BACX doesn't make money, how can it be cheaper OR more profitable than Mainline??!
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Tailscrapes! Just what do you chaps define as a tailscrape? I heard the last event at LCY required the tail to be scraped off the runway and stuck back on the jet.
But just for the record how many "tailscrapes" this year? What was the Bill and most importantly why?
Clearly there are some very experienced operators of the RJ about.....but are you employing them sensibly? From what I have heard you have a number of very inexperienced RJ pilots being sent to the City on little more than a wing and a prayer.
My other concern would be the quality of management and dare I say it leadership. Has TDLF qualified on the RJ yet? How many command hours does he have on any fixed wing commercial jets?
A management pilot does not have to be the "best" pilot but in order to maintain credibility he or she has to be competent and current.
If you have suffered a number of tailscrapes this year then you have a safety problem. That needs to be recognised and dealt with by management that at least fly the jet now and again.
Regards BP
But just for the record how many "tailscrapes" this year? What was the Bill and most importantly why?
Clearly there are some very experienced operators of the RJ about.....but are you employing them sensibly? From what I have heard you have a number of very inexperienced RJ pilots being sent to the City on little more than a wing and a prayer.
My other concern would be the quality of management and dare I say it leadership. Has TDLF qualified on the RJ yet? How many command hours does he have on any fixed wing commercial jets?
A management pilot does not have to be the "best" pilot but in order to maintain credibility he or she has to be competent and current.
If you have suffered a number of tailscrapes this year then you have a safety problem. That needs to be recognised and dealt with by management that at least fly the jet now and again.
Regards BP
I think most of the RJ skippers are ex-mainline, in one form or another , and for quite a few it's there first command.
Now what does that tell us............
Answers on a postcard please.Blue Peter badge to the most absurd answer ..
Now what does that tell us............
Answers on a postcard please.Blue Peter badge to the most absurd answer ..
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IF BA were smart they would flog off BACX and let it be a franchise operation with it's own competant management (it works elsewhere and worked before). There is a chance that the company may indeed do that - European mainlines tend to follow what US mainlines do with their regionals and across the pond they are flogging as fast as they can (although this has been slowed by the lack of popularity of airline IPOs on Wall St in the last two years).
Of course, it's BA we're talking about here, so the chances are rather than do the smart thing and flog it they'll probably just let it wither on the vine and then close it (already starting to happen if you think about it to the great joy of Richard and Brian).
Of course, it's BA we're talking about here, so the chances are rather than do the smart thing and flog it they'll probably just let it wither on the vine and then close it (already starting to happen if you think about it to the great joy of Richard and Brian).
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Have to agree with you Ace. It is a pity, because although BACX was made up of small companies that appeared to be well run and at least reasonably happy. When BA combined them under their own management it has failed to produce the goods.
I would continue to question the quality of the original business plan and the ability of the management team to implement it.
As per the tail scrapes I have yet to find any organisation that has a monolpoly on the best pilots! Mainline standards are high and the training is very good but I think even an above the average pilot would find it hard to convert to the RJ and then be sent to the City. The question is are BACX using their resources sensibly? Why not give new crew a chance to gain experience before sending them into LCY?
It is a basic tenet of Health and Safety Law that Expediency should never take precedence over safety. Recent events suggest otherwise at BACX.
Regards BP
I would continue to question the quality of the original business plan and the ability of the management team to implement it.
As per the tail scrapes I have yet to find any organisation that has a monolpoly on the best pilots! Mainline standards are high and the training is very good but I think even an above the average pilot would find it hard to convert to the RJ and then be sent to the City. The question is are BACX using their resources sensibly? Why not give new crew a chance to gain experience before sending them into LCY?
It is a basic tenet of Health and Safety Law that Expediency should never take precedence over safety. Recent events suggest otherwise at BACX.
Regards BP
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With all due respect what a bunch of whingers and moaners not to mention old women.
Stop writing off the company and start doing your best to turn it around, spreading doom and gloom and its all over scenario's isn't going to change things.
If you hadn't noticed the whole airline industry is in a pile of the messy stuff at the moment, stop the whining and lets all pull together in the same direction. And please don't lets go down the road of who has the better airline pilots this is all rather old hat and childish.
If you have serious concerns about tail scrape incidents approach the training department with them and ask.
Thank god it was my fathers generation that took the beaches at Normandy and not some of you guys, your approach its seems would have been 'looks at bit dangerous out there on the beach lets turn around and get back on the boat'.
If you don't have anything positive to say then keep it to yourself, some of us have many years invested in this airline and very much want to see it succeed.
Stop writing off the company and start doing your best to turn it around, spreading doom and gloom and its all over scenario's isn't going to change things.
If you hadn't noticed the whole airline industry is in a pile of the messy stuff at the moment, stop the whining and lets all pull together in the same direction. And please don't lets go down the road of who has the better airline pilots this is all rather old hat and childish.
If you have serious concerns about tail scrape incidents approach the training department with them and ask.
Thank god it was my fathers generation that took the beaches at Normandy and not some of you guys, your approach its seems would have been 'looks at bit dangerous out there on the beach lets turn around and get back on the boat'.
If you don't have anything positive to say then keep it to yourself, some of us have many years invested in this airline and very much want to see it succeed.
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Amazon man: Hmm landing craft...let's see...yep remember those...bouncy thing you get wet in...
What I was saying was that in common with other regionals that have been bought my majors BACX is in a bit of a pickle and probably the best thing for the company and the JOBS would be if it were sold and got it's own (and good management). Sounds like sorting the company out don't you think?
I suspect that sadly that will not be the case with CitiExpress thanks to neglect by Big BA management - Who don't really appear to have a regional strategy apart from give up routes.
Ask yourself this question "What's happened to those routes?
Answer A well managed cost controlled and flexible airline has taken them over and is making a lot of money on them - see the difference?
What I was saying was that in common with other regionals that have been bought my majors BACX is in a bit of a pickle and probably the best thing for the company and the JOBS would be if it were sold and got it's own (and good management). Sounds like sorting the company out don't you think?
I suspect that sadly that will not be the case with CitiExpress thanks to neglect by Big BA management - Who don't really appear to have a regional strategy apart from give up routes.
Ask yourself this question "What's happened to those routes?
Answer A well managed cost controlled and flexible airline has taken them over and is making a lot of money on them - see the difference?
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Prior to BACX the likes of CityFlyer, BRAL etc were run very well and all to my knowledge made a profit. I concede that at times the staff were not so happy.
As some of you have said trying to amalgamate four airlines with differing work practise and custom is dificult particularly when some are not pulling in the same direction whether intended or not.
I beleive the particular problems have also arisen from the LCs that have taken off over the last 5 years and have caused BACX particular problems on UK and European routes with vast numbers of seats for sale, not to mention the considerable number of problems it has caused BA mainline Surely this has been a problem made far worst when trying to compete and make major changes to the BACX profile.
I particularly agree with Mr Rimmers last paragraph.
As some of you have said trying to amalgamate four airlines with differing work practise and custom is dificult particularly when some are not pulling in the same direction whether intended or not.
I beleive the particular problems have also arisen from the LCs that have taken off over the last 5 years and have caused BACX particular problems on UK and European routes with vast numbers of seats for sale, not to mention the considerable number of problems it has caused BA mainline Surely this has been a problem made far worst when trying to compete and make major changes to the BACX profile.
I particularly agree with Mr Rimmers last paragraph.
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Amazon Man in keeping with the season and your love of the Military a little poetry
The General
"Good-morning; good morning!" the General said
When we met him last week on our way to the line.
Now the soldiers he smiled at are most of 'em dead,
And we're cursing his staff for incompetent swine.
"He's a cheery old card" grunted Harry to Jack
As they slogged up to Arras with rifle and pack
* * * * *
But he did for them both by his plan of attack.
Siegried Sassoon
The General
"Good-morning; good morning!" the General said
When we met him last week on our way to the line.
Now the soldiers he smiled at are most of 'em dead,
And we're cursing his staff for incompetent swine.
"He's a cheery old card" grunted Harry to Jack
As they slogged up to Arras with rifle and pack
* * * * *
But he did for them both by his plan of attack.
Siegried Sassoon
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BA has not handled its shorthaul and provincial opportunities well.
CFE and BRAL were profitable and at no cost to BA provided them with incremental revenue and a presence in a wide variety of places that someone with the cost structure and general lack of flexibility BA mainline could never successfully reach.
BA mainline at Gatwick should have been rolled into CFE and left as an independent franchise run by its own management. At the very least that would have given BA an extensive LGW network at no cost to itself and with some revenue and franchise fee benefits.
Go was probably the future of shorthaul but ditched to give focus to mainline shorthaul which, with its costs, is probably long term a lost cause. EZY, Ryan, FlyBE, Eastern are all on the advance with new routes, new bases, and mostly big fleet orders. Where is BAs future expansion plan? General retreat can hardly be motivating . Revenue usually comes out faster than costs so whats left gets into deeper trouble unless theres a fundamental and total restructure and refocus.
Do we see BOAC in the crystal ball?
CFE and BRAL were profitable and at no cost to BA provided them with incremental revenue and a presence in a wide variety of places that someone with the cost structure and general lack of flexibility BA mainline could never successfully reach.
BA mainline at Gatwick should have been rolled into CFE and left as an independent franchise run by its own management. At the very least that would have given BA an extensive LGW network at no cost to itself and with some revenue and franchise fee benefits.
Go was probably the future of shorthaul but ditched to give focus to mainline shorthaul which, with its costs, is probably long term a lost cause. EZY, Ryan, FlyBE, Eastern are all on the advance with new routes, new bases, and mostly big fleet orders. Where is BAs future expansion plan? General retreat can hardly be motivating . Revenue usually comes out faster than costs so whats left gets into deeper trouble unless theres a fundamental and total restructure and refocus.
Do we see BOAC in the crystal ball?
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Bigpants
What exactly is your problem mate?
Like it or not, big BA sold the regional scarebus operation down the river. Inspite of the fact that it was profitable!
Balpa either couldn't, or couldn't be bothered, to stop the loss of 100 or so mainline jobs.
You had the chance to stay on, but presumably are now 'enjoying' shorthaul out of CC!
Some of us decided to 'opt in', and now 'enjoy' working alongside the likes of 145qrh, and his sort, who love giving us stick from the bacx side!
Yes, for some of us this is indeed our first command, (with 10,000hrs, does that make us inexperienced?) I don't remember the scarebus arrival at brum being too different!!
We are indeed operating into LCY incredibly soon after our final check. I struggle to think of a more challenging airfield to operate into, or out of (perhaps a little more time on 'carriers would have helped!)
I have to tell you (assuming you have no relevant experience) your comments about RJ ops into LCY by BACX, have the vaguest whiff of sour grapes about them!
We would have been, indeed some ARE the very same pilots, who operated the BAR 319s!
I already said to you, I think I understand where you are coming from. It is very easy to rise to the disinformation spread, deliberately, or otherwise, comparing the BAR operation with BACX! Best to ignore it mate!
Dewdrop - I think one of the reasons prices (and advertising) policy seems a little strange, is that - from LCY at least - we are also competing with BA routes out of LHR, and LGW! Are you getting the picture!
And although I know I too should rise above it....
145qrh -
Why don't you award YOURSELF a Blue Peter badge by telling US what you are on about! If you meant to connect tailscrapes at LCY with mainline secondees, you may wish to check your stats!
So c'mon, don't just go silent on us!!
What exactly is your problem mate?
Like it or not, big BA sold the regional scarebus operation down the river. Inspite of the fact that it was profitable!
Balpa either couldn't, or couldn't be bothered, to stop the loss of 100 or so mainline jobs.
You had the chance to stay on, but presumably are now 'enjoying' shorthaul out of CC!
Some of us decided to 'opt in', and now 'enjoy' working alongside the likes of 145qrh, and his sort, who love giving us stick from the bacx side!
Yes, for some of us this is indeed our first command, (with 10,000hrs, does that make us inexperienced?) I don't remember the scarebus arrival at brum being too different!!
We are indeed operating into LCY incredibly soon after our final check. I struggle to think of a more challenging airfield to operate into, or out of (perhaps a little more time on 'carriers would have helped!)
I have to tell you (assuming you have no relevant experience) your comments about RJ ops into LCY by BACX, have the vaguest whiff of sour grapes about them!
We would have been, indeed some ARE the very same pilots, who operated the BAR 319s!
I already said to you, I think I understand where you are coming from. It is very easy to rise to the disinformation spread, deliberately, or otherwise, comparing the BAR operation with BACX! Best to ignore it mate!
Dewdrop - I think one of the reasons prices (and advertising) policy seems a little strange, is that - from LCY at least - we are also competing with BA routes out of LHR, and LGW! Are you getting the picture!
And although I know I too should rise above it....
145qrh -
Why don't you award YOURSELF a Blue Peter badge by telling US what you are on about! If you meant to connect tailscrapes at LCY with mainline secondees, you may wish to check your stats!
So c'mon, don't just go silent on us!!
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So was anyone actually at the BCG meeting in MAN today?
Does anyone have a copy of the announcement that's just been given to staff?
It seems that management have started to filter the information through at last
Be prepared - if PLH and NQY are anything to go by, there will be some very serious consequences.
The axe is going to fall somewhere and it may not only be ATPs
Good luck to all in BACX
and could those people that are in a fortunate position to not be affected, please show some consideration for those who are!
Does anyone have a copy of the announcement that's just been given to staff?
It seems that management have started to filter the information through at last
Be prepared - if PLH and NQY are anything to go by, there will be some very serious consequences.
The axe is going to fall somewhere and it may not only be ATPs
Good luck to all in BACX
and could those people that are in a fortunate position to not be affected, please show some consideration for those who are!
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BACX never was, or is, going to work. CFE, Brymon, etc. made money and were successful, but the margins were still relatively thin.......and as soon as BA costs started being loaded on, these margins were always going to be totally eroded.
.....and that's before you take into account the impact of the lo-cost brigade in the past few years.
BA will continue their retreat to become increasingly LHR-centric, and then in a year or so they'll decide they need to increase their presence in 'marginal' areas via the only cost-effective way of doing it....franchising!
.....and that's before you take into account the impact of the lo-cost brigade in the past few years.
BA will continue their retreat to become increasingly LHR-centric, and then in a year or so they'll decide they need to increase their presence in 'marginal' areas via the only cost-effective way of doing it....franchising!