Concorde Crews to Strike
Suggest the FEs get in touch with the Concorde GROUND Engineers who, it appears are being similarly shafted!
Oh and the rest of BA Engineering is currently being balloted for industrial action.
Oh dear!
Oh and the rest of BA Engineering is currently being balloted for industrial action.
Oh dear!
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Um Hovis, your a tad out, the ground engineers are actually being balloted over whether to accept the pay deal or not. A YES vote, and they deal goes ahead, a NO vote, and then things go to the next stage.
Surely the F/E's knew that three man aircraft were a shaky employment prospect since the 80's?
Didnt BA run a pilot selection scheme in the 90's?
Surely the F/E's knew that three man aircraft were a shaky employment prospect since the 80's?
Didnt BA run a pilot selection scheme in the 90's?
Guest
Posts: n/a
Hand Solo
I will immediately admit that I am not qualified to comment upon the support from the pilot community. My reference to a lack of support, if you care to check my previous post, was aimed at BALPA. I referred not once to pilot support.
I also have no knowledge of the severance terms of the applicable BA F/E's. I do, however, know that there is a legal level of redundancy payment and a refusal by BA to pay that minimum ammount is the only legal justification for strike action. Anything more than the legal minimum is a bonus, for which the F/E's should be grateful. Are BA renaging upon a written agreement to pay out more than the legal minimum ?
Perhaps you should consider that the inheritance left to BA upon privatisation was a complete airline, route structure and the massive majority of Heathrow slot allocations. The taxpayer forfeited a vast sum to establish BA as it was at that time. It was a giant, minnow-devouring monopoly. If you can't make a profit with that sort of an advantage, then you'd have to be trying to lose money on purpose.
Do you think that they're unique in that respect ? Take a look at the remainder of the airlines in the UK, nay, in the real world and how they consistently mistreat/have mistreated their loyal, hard working employees.
I stand by my previous post.
EDIT -- It occurs to me to ask, since you raised the subject, as to how you decide that Concorde has been a profitable concern.
But then, how stupid of me ! I had included the massive cost of Concorde's design, development and production in my calculations. Remind me -- who exactly payed for all of that ?
Ah yes ! BA's old favourite of that era, the taxpayer.
You have no knowledge of the severance terms agreed between the Concorde F/Es and BA. You are qualified to comment neither on the BA F/Es severance, nor the support they have amongst the BA pilot community.
I also have no knowledge of the severance terms of the applicable BA F/E's. I do, however, know that there is a legal level of redundancy payment and a refusal by BA to pay that minimum ammount is the only legal justification for strike action. Anything more than the legal minimum is a bonus, for which the F/E's should be grateful. Are BA renaging upon a written agreement to pay out more than the legal minimum ?
Perhaps you should consider the fact that Planet Decadence (formerly Planet Taxpayer's Expense) was also formerly the worlds most profitable airline. Concorde played a large part, both directly and indirectly, in that profitability.
The F/Es have performed a highly specialised and indispensable task in operating the flagship of our fleet, and are now being hung out to dry whilst managers sit at home on full pay.
I stand by my previous post.
EDIT -- It occurs to me to ask, since you raised the subject, as to how you decide that Concorde has been a profitable concern.
But then, how stupid of me ! I had included the massive cost of Concorde's design, development and production in my calculations. Remind me -- who exactly payed for all of that ?
Ah yes ! BA's old favourite of that era, the taxpayer.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 140
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In the early 1990's British Airways decided that they wished to cancel the last remaining 40 pilot training courses at Prestwick, but were informed that under the contract they would have to pay for them anyway.
This led to BA offering those places to Flight Engineers who were under a certain age and who could meet the entry requirements.
Other than that there has not been any other F/E retraining schemes in BA.
As to the Concorde F/E many of them were encouraged by BA to leave the 747 fleet and convert onto Concorde, as due to their age they would be able to see the Concorde out to it's projected retirement date of around 2007.
This meant that when the Classic fleet was retired, they did not go after the jobs that came available elsewhere and which are now all filled. So yes they did know that the F/E job was coming to an end, but stuck with the company to ensure that the Concorde could continue flying, so perhaps BA does owe them something extra now that Concorde is to be retired early
This led to BA offering those places to Flight Engineers who were under a certain age and who could meet the entry requirements.
Other than that there has not been any other F/E retraining schemes in BA.
As to the Concorde F/E many of them were encouraged by BA to leave the 747 fleet and convert onto Concorde, as due to their age they would be able to see the Concorde out to it's projected retirement date of around 2007.
This meant that when the Classic fleet was retired, they did not go after the jobs that came available elsewhere and which are now all filled. So yes they did know that the F/E job was coming to an end, but stuck with the company to ensure that the Concorde could continue flying, so perhaps BA does owe them something extra now that Concorde is to be retired early
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Northolt
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Concorde Crews to strike?
Come on you guys...fight the retirement but striking will only make it harder to keep her alive, you must see that surely!
There are thousands of us out there who would do virtually anything we can to help you guys. You are the ones together wtih all involved who have made Concorde what she is, a national icon, and we want her in the skies.
So work to achieve that, not an earlier end than it already is!
There are thousands of us out there who would do virtually anything we can to help you guys. You are the ones together wtih all involved who have made Concorde what she is, a national icon, and we want her in the skies.
So work to achieve that, not an earlier end than it already is!
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: The Shadows
Posts: 202
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why do they have a problem with being cabin crew?
Yes - I agree they are highly intelligent and trained individuals who's skills will be going to waste.
But - if your going to get the same pay but just in a different job then surely that's not so bad?
I'm sure there are plenty on the dole queue who would have jumped at a similar opportunity at their old jobs so they could keep paying the mortgage.
If BA are going back on written agreements then that is wrong, however if they offering you an opportunity to carry on flying (and doing an important job might I add - imagine all those pax who would love to hear all your Concorde stories) on your current pay, then I reckon you've got not a bad deal.
Anyone know how much FE's make a year? Doubt there are many juniort cabin crew in any airline on that kinda dosh. (Apart from the managers that have been sitting at home who have also realised what a cushy number it is and are also taking up the offer)
Whatever happens - I wish em all the best!
Good luck!
Yes - I agree they are highly intelligent and trained individuals who's skills will be going to waste.
But - if your going to get the same pay but just in a different job then surely that's not so bad?
I'm sure there are plenty on the dole queue who would have jumped at a similar opportunity at their old jobs so they could keep paying the mortgage.
If BA are going back on written agreements then that is wrong, however if they offering you an opportunity to carry on flying (and doing an important job might I add - imagine all those pax who would love to hear all your Concorde stories) on your current pay, then I reckon you've got not a bad deal.
Anyone know how much FE's make a year? Doubt there are many juniort cabin crew in any airline on that kinda dosh. (Apart from the managers that have been sitting at home who have also realised what a cushy number it is and are also taking up the offer)
Whatever happens - I wish em all the best!
Good luck!
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Brit312, your almost spot on. But wasnt there a further pilot retraining scheme in the late 90's? I believe some who missed out the first time were successfull second time around.
As for the retirement date, I think you were correct it was a "projected" retirement date, not a guaranteed date, and hence some stayed rather than taking Classic jobs outside BA, a risk they weighed up at the time.
I am sure they have agreed over the last few years that BA needs to get rid of staff that are surplus.
What exactly is it they think BA owes them?
As for the retirement date, I think you were correct it was a "projected" retirement date, not a guaranteed date, and hence some stayed rather than taking Classic jobs outside BA, a risk they weighed up at the time.
I am sure they have agreed over the last few years that BA needs to get rid of staff that are surplus.
What exactly is it they think BA owes them?
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Linköping, Sweden
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Peergint said
You cant fight the retirement. She is being withdrawn from service, no matter what anyone does.
The F/E´s only chance to get a better retirement package is to hit BA mangement where it hurts!
Good luck BA F/E´s!
Good luck TwoTun!
fight the retirement but striking will only make it harder to keep her alive
The F/E´s only chance to get a better retirement package is to hit BA mangement where it hurts!
Good luck BA F/E´s!
Good luck TwoTun!
Mistrust in Management
stormin norman
A bit early for the outcome of the ballot as I don't think the papers have been sent out yet.
You will see it on this forum in time.
Regards
Exeng
You will see it on this forum in time.
Regards
Exeng
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: An Island sometimes in the sun
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Two Tun
What would I do?
Bite the bullet. If you can get more and not strike.......go for it but know when your stepping off the edge.
Your are outnumbered and in situations like this the smart thing is to smile take the money and learn from it.
Concorde F/E's are too small a group to fight and win. Victory goes to the big battalions. Dont look for support from others it will be a long time before the 320/777 fleet go and while they may "support you" you wont find them risking that position
If you strike you will be portrayed as sulking children depriving the public of their farewell to a British technological icon,and the whole labour force is getting shafted every day so dont look for sympathy elsewhere.
Here is what you should do IMHO
Get your grieivances into the public domain.
Let the management do the threatening.
Imply that you have all found alternative employment and you will be leaving prior to redundancy..................no one blaims anyone for moving on and protecting your family's livelihood. ( NB I dont know your contractural liability) .
The market has two edges to it's sword. It is the world of ME PLC and if the phone rings at 10 in the evening with a better offer dont feel guilty for wearing someone else's uniform the next morning while your rostered flight sits at the gate
When I was in Crabair the rule was: do it then whinge.
Two Scenarios:
Overpaid dinosaurs ruin last flight of something that made this country great......Jane Public who, when she found out Concorde would be retired early cashed in her savings so that her disabled son could experience his dream........"How could they do this to us?"
Or
Now that Concorde has been retired it has emerged that BA reneged on agreements with its Flight Engineers.
Their spokesman Two Tun told us that "BA went back on every agreement it had made with us, and it bodes no good for every BA employee". Strike action was discussed but dismissed.
almost immediately. We all knew the significance to the public of Concorde, but more importantly to the young ( Jane Publics son in scene) who will never have the opportunity to experience this very special aircraft. What made this day special for so many is due to the dedication of the crews. We were lied to, cheated and treated abonobilly but there was no way we were going to let people like this young man down( Jane Ps son still in scene)
Time I stopped now but you get the idea
My best wishes
Abominably.et al before Im corrected lol
What would I do?
Bite the bullet. If you can get more and not strike.......go for it but know when your stepping off the edge.
Your are outnumbered and in situations like this the smart thing is to smile take the money and learn from it.
Concorde F/E's are too small a group to fight and win. Victory goes to the big battalions. Dont look for support from others it will be a long time before the 320/777 fleet go and while they may "support you" you wont find them risking that position
If you strike you will be portrayed as sulking children depriving the public of their farewell to a British technological icon,and the whole labour force is getting shafted every day so dont look for sympathy elsewhere.
Here is what you should do IMHO
Get your grieivances into the public domain.
Let the management do the threatening.
Imply that you have all found alternative employment and you will be leaving prior to redundancy..................no one blaims anyone for moving on and protecting your family's livelihood. ( NB I dont know your contractural liability) .
The market has two edges to it's sword. It is the world of ME PLC and if the phone rings at 10 in the evening with a better offer dont feel guilty for wearing someone else's uniform the next morning while your rostered flight sits at the gate
When I was in Crabair the rule was: do it then whinge.
Two Scenarios:
Overpaid dinosaurs ruin last flight of something that made this country great......Jane Public who, when she found out Concorde would be retired early cashed in her savings so that her disabled son could experience his dream........"How could they do this to us?"
Or
Now that Concorde has been retired it has emerged that BA reneged on agreements with its Flight Engineers.
Their spokesman Two Tun told us that "BA went back on every agreement it had made with us, and it bodes no good for every BA employee". Strike action was discussed but dismissed.
almost immediately. We all knew the significance to the public of Concorde, but more importantly to the young ( Jane Publics son in scene) who will never have the opportunity to experience this very special aircraft. What made this day special for so many is due to the dedication of the crews. We were lied to, cheated and treated abonobilly but there was no way we were going to let people like this young man down( Jane Ps son still in scene)
Time I stopped now but you get the idea
My best wishes
Abominably.et al before Im corrected lol
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Northolt
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fritzi said
You cant fight the retirement. She is being withdrawn from service, no matter what anyone does.
Fair point. But what I meant is fight that you are going to lose your jobs. That's the right thing, but striking wouldn't help. There are many of us guys out there who want her to fly to the date BA stated, Oct 24th, and not before, and if you strike, that date could be brought forward. Something we don't want!
There are many of us who are trying our best to stop the retirement. We have organised a petition, written to many companies to request their support to BA to help with costs of maintaining her, and we have been writing to the government, and the Tories to try to get assistance. It doesn't stop there. We are trying everything. After all this was made with our money and BA have been damned fine cartakers, (yes I know they bought them) and we want them flying until the real time for retirement, which is not now!!!!
We are not lying down as the French would. We want our aircraft to fly even if the French don't want to fly theirs. Funny how they're keeping one of them in working order, though, at least hydraulically!
No why is that, if the aircraft is not going to fly again?
You cant fight the retirement. She is being withdrawn from service, no matter what anyone does.
Fair point. But what I meant is fight that you are going to lose your jobs. That's the right thing, but striking wouldn't help. There are many of us guys out there who want her to fly to the date BA stated, Oct 24th, and not before, and if you strike, that date could be brought forward. Something we don't want!
There are many of us who are trying our best to stop the retirement. We have organised a petition, written to many companies to request their support to BA to help with costs of maintaining her, and we have been writing to the government, and the Tories to try to get assistance. It doesn't stop there. We are trying everything. After all this was made with our money and BA have been damned fine cartakers, (yes I know they bought them) and we want them flying until the real time for retirement, which is not now!!!!
We are not lying down as the French would. We want our aircraft to fly even if the French don't want to fly theirs. Funny how they're keeping one of them in working order, though, at least hydraulically!
No why is that, if the aircraft is not going to fly again?
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: U.K.
Age: 46
Posts: 3,112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I cannot believe that people are seriously suggesting that it is O.K for the F/E's to be told to become CC. Get real! No offense to cabin crew but you wouldn't catch me doing it in a million years (I'd be in prison within a week for GBH), a bit of a come down from being the most important part of the most fantastic commercial a/c of all time.
All the pilots who are telling these guy's to just accept it because times are hard should hang their heads in shame. What will your reaction be if in 20 years we have the same discussion about pilots becoming technologically redundant?
I think we would hear a bit of bleating then....
Good luck with the action it's just a shame that is had to go that far.
All the pilots who are telling these guy's to just accept it because times are hard should hang their heads in shame. What will your reaction be if in 20 years we have the same discussion about pilots becoming technologically redundant?
I think we would hear a bit of bleating then....
Good luck with the action it's just a shame that is had to go that far.
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: At the foot of the Lammermuirs
Posts: 344
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Say again s l o w l y - As I said in an earlier post, BA are obliged under employment law to offer alternatives to redundancy such as redeployment. By offering positions as CC, they have met that obligation.
Concorde is going. The Classics have gone. No other aircraft on the BA fleet requires FE. I'd be delighted to hear what you think BA should do with a workforce that is no longer required. This is the real world. Jobs go. People are made redundant.
Concorde is going. The Classics have gone. No other aircraft on the BA fleet requires FE. I'd be delighted to hear what you think BA should do with a workforce that is no longer required. This is the real world. Jobs go. People are made redundant.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: U.K.
Age: 46
Posts: 3,112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gaza, I have no doubt that BA have far too many staff overall. The company's financial situation is still laughable, (owing 3 times it's value in debt etc.) cost are still too high, yields too low etc etc.
My problem with how the F/E's are being treated is one of respect, whilst an offer to change to CC may be legal, it is in reality a slap in the face.
Are we all so down-trodden in this industry that we feel that this is acceptable behaviour? I sincerely hope not, but having read the replies so far......
In answer as to what I feel BA should offer these chaps. Simple, offer them a series of respectful options, pensions, career changes within the business (not necessarily to pilot). What sort of message does this send out to all BA troops if the most highly thought of group of empolyees are being treated shabbily, what hope does everyone else have?
Finally, just because this is the "real world" doesn't excuse companies/people from treating other folk correctly. It is always the cry of the terminally unimaginative "get real" means nobody can be bothered to find a proper solution to any issues.
My problem with how the F/E's are being treated is one of respect, whilst an offer to change to CC may be legal, it is in reality a slap in the face.
Are we all so down-trodden in this industry that we feel that this is acceptable behaviour? I sincerely hope not, but having read the replies so far......
In answer as to what I feel BA should offer these chaps. Simple, offer them a series of respectful options, pensions, career changes within the business (not necessarily to pilot). What sort of message does this send out to all BA troops if the most highly thought of group of empolyees are being treated shabbily, what hope does everyone else have?
Finally, just because this is the "real world" doesn't excuse companies/people from treating other folk correctly. It is always the cry of the terminally unimaginative "get real" means nobody can be bothered to find a proper solution to any issues.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gaza
I'm afraid we are dealing with simple greed here. Get what you can and to hell with a Company struggling to become profitable after two years of 9/11,SARS, etc. Wild cat strike of check-in staff because swiping would spoil their chances to be paid when not there.
F/Es have known for a while that they are a dying breed. Soon to be redundant. Normal rules apply, chaps!
I'm afraid we are dealing with simple greed here. Get what you can and to hell with a Company struggling to become profitable after two years of 9/11,SARS, etc. Wild cat strike of check-in staff because swiping would spoil their chances to be paid when not there.
F/Es have known for a while that they are a dying breed. Soon to be redundant. Normal rules apply, chaps!
Say again s l o w l y
As the only vacancies available are for cabin crew or customer service agents BA cannot provide other options.
offer them a series of respectful options, pensions, career changes within the business (not necessarily to pilot)
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: England
Posts: 1,389
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For info, the BBC finance program "Working Lunch" is going to do a special prog about Conc.
Today they asked for people to email in their memories and experiences of Conc.
Send mail to: [email protected]
Today they asked for people to email in their memories and experiences of Conc.
Send mail to: [email protected]