Concorde Crews to Strike
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I'm afraid that the Flight Engineers don't really have a leg to stand on in this dispute. They are a dying breed, and they should have accepted the inevitable years ago.
IMHO, of course.
IMHO, of course.
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I nearly got TwoTun mixed up with TwoTon.
I believe the FEs just want to be treated fairly and hope that BA will do that. They have always given more than the basic severance in the past and although times are hard, they should do so again on this occasion. It is after all a very small group and the issue will not recur with this group of employees.
As for management pilots 'extracting' the glorious last few trips... Well that just stinks to high heaven.
I believe the FEs just want to be treated fairly and hope that BA will do that. They have always given more than the basic severance in the past and although times are hard, they should do so again on this occasion. It is after all a very small group and the issue will not recur with this group of employees.
As for management pilots 'extracting' the glorious last few trips... Well that just stinks to high heaven.
I am a figment of my own imagination
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The job is aviation, part of the territory has been redundancy, layoffs, furloughs, liquidation. The counter staff were wrong to go on strike as they did, as this will be if the F/E's do. The company is doing it's best to survive and has made a business decision. It would be criticised if it did not. A lot of decisions are unpalatable and do affect peoples lives, but I do not believe that a strike is going to alter the decision taken and can only make things worse for the company and those still in it. The F/E's have in all likelehood had long remunerative carreers with BA, and knew it was coming to an end. The indications were that it would have lasted a bit longer, it didn't. Thats life.
Mistrust in Management
Paterbrat
'Tis human nature it seems to believe that everybody elses strike is wrong and unjustified but our own personal grievances must be put right and any action can be taken to rectify the situation. (In much the same way it is human nature to believe that anybody who earns considerably more than oneself must be overpaid.)
I suspect you make these claims in regard to the F/E's and the 'counter staff' with little real knowledge of the issues involved.
You are quite correct in saying that a business decision has been made. Just a shame that decision did not take into account promises made and give due regard to the loyalty shown by these long serving employees.
If you found yourself in the same position would you really just hang up your hat and toddle off quietly?
As for the person posing as Two Tun, what a pathetic attempt.
Regards
Exeng
I suspect you make these claims in regard to the F/E's and the 'counter staff' with little real knowledge of the issues involved.
You are quite correct in saying that a business decision has been made. Just a shame that decision did not take into account promises made and give due regard to the loyalty shown by these long serving employees.
If you found yourself in the same position would you really just hang up your hat and toddle off quietly?
As for the person posing as Two Tun, what a pathetic attempt.
Regards
Exeng
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Gaza
You are spot on, I totally agree.
But you may as well type it in the Martian language, because I reckon thats the best guess I'll ever come up with as to which planet this lot are on.
I saw the entire cabin crew establishment at a medium sized base in my company made redundant in one slashing blow. The only alternative was to take a lesser job with another company formed by the previously mentioned slashing company.
Did'nt see that on PPRuNe causing a fuss, did we ?
That's because , like many outside of BA, they were accustomed to having their teeth kicked in every so often. That's the real world.
This spoilt lot make me angry.
This is the real world. Jobs go. People are made redundant.
But you may as well type it in the Martian language, because I reckon thats the best guess I'll ever come up with as to which planet this lot are on.
I saw the entire cabin crew establishment at a medium sized base in my company made redundant in one slashing blow. The only alternative was to take a lesser job with another company formed by the previously mentioned slashing company.
Did'nt see that on PPRuNe causing a fuss, did we ?
That's because , like many outside of BA, they were accustomed to having their teeth kicked in every so often. That's the real world.
This spoilt lot make me angry.
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Why should anyone get used to "having their teeth kicked in" Anthony? Just because you work for a company that values its staff doesn't make you spoiled.
In all industries there are tales of these magical, friendly organisations that pay properly and have great terms, conditions and life styles, unfortunately in the aviation world these are few and far between. It doesn't mean that we should allow our selves to be treated like s**t.
Your example AC shows what a divided bunch we all are and that organisations like BALPA have been almost worse than useless in the many areas of industrial strife. Why didn't we hear about it? Why did you not post it yourself when you saw it happening?
This thread however, is not about whether certain jobs exist or not, but about how people with mortgages to pay and families to bring up have been subjected to a mangement style with all the sensitivity of Genghis Khan with a hangover. Businessess SHOULD be about more than just profits, providing a safe and secure working environment often will bring rewards back to the business as well as the employee.
Just look at how Lockheed (I think) ran their factories during ww2. Good pay, creches, housing and more. Yet they were THE most profitable aviation company of the era with a workforce that had virtually no turnover and even now are gushing in their praise of the boss-man.
In all industries there are tales of these magical, friendly organisations that pay properly and have great terms, conditions and life styles, unfortunately in the aviation world these are few and far between. It doesn't mean that we should allow our selves to be treated like s**t.
Your example AC shows what a divided bunch we all are and that organisations like BALPA have been almost worse than useless in the many areas of industrial strife. Why didn't we hear about it? Why did you not post it yourself when you saw it happening?
This thread however, is not about whether certain jobs exist or not, but about how people with mortgages to pay and families to bring up have been subjected to a mangement style with all the sensitivity of Genghis Khan with a hangover. Businessess SHOULD be about more than just profits, providing a safe and secure working environment often will bring rewards back to the business as well as the employee.
Just look at how Lockheed (I think) ran their factories during ww2. Good pay, creches, housing and more. Yet they were THE most profitable aviation company of the era with a workforce that had virtually no turnover and even now are gushing in their praise of the boss-man.
I am a figment of my own imagination
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Exeng I have had a small internal airline an international carrier and an exec flight department go t*ts up while I was working for them and there was no option but to toddle off quietly. I suspect that the majority of flight crews have had similar experiences. I found that out about aviation as I went along and I would be very surprised if the F/E's on Concorde didn't consider it a disdinct possibility. No, I do not know what was promised, nor what was stipulated in their contract, but I would wager that they have been offered their full contractual entitlement, that they have probably had long and fruitful carreers, and have earned every penny of their salary. I suggest that they were paid what they were worth, and now sadly, their jobs have come to an end.
I have never believed that simply because someone was paid more than me they were overpaid, and 'fair' is a very overused concept.
I have never believed that simply because someone was paid more than me they were overpaid, and 'fair' is a very overused concept.
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re:
Good pay, creches, housing and more. Yet they were THE most profitable aviation company of the era with a workforce that had virtually no turnover and even now are gushing in their praise of the boss-man.
Perhaps so but BA are competing in an era of cut-throat competition and companies who are leaner because they have grown organically.
Nevertheless,BA is asking for trouble if it goes back on promises made previously.
Perhaps so but BA are competing in an era of cut-throat competition and companies who are leaner because they have grown organically.
Nevertheless,BA is asking for trouble if it goes back on promises made previously.
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I believe the F/E deserves a lot more respect than some of your guys are alluding to. Anyone who has been employed with one company for over 25 years deserves a pad on the back. The F/Es could have left BA couple of years of ago and gone somewhere else. Should BA award employees that are loyal to the company? Afterall, the cost of type training the F/Es are just as expensive as training the pilots.
As to working as CC, it is a completely different job as F/E. Most F/Es and pilots don't have the personality to become good CCs. It requires a complete skill set.
I support the F/Es for their plea.
As to working as CC, it is a completely different job as F/E. Most F/Es and pilots don't have the personality to become good CCs. It requires a complete skill set.
I support the F/Es for their plea.
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GK
The world has moved on.
As I have said in my earlier post, this is the age of ME PLC.
It is not a question really of what is good bad etc
The party is over and that is it.
A young friend of mine is building hours and often asks me for advice.
Here it is:
We are all responsible for our own skills portfolio and that once you get in the seat anything can happen out of it
Fail a medical, car accident,.........ad infinitum
Then what are you going to do? all that effort and suddenly you are unemployable. The plumber in 27C that you saw coming onboard and sneered at last week is now far more valuable than you. (this is allegorical)
As I learned working in the North Sea you are only as good as your last paycheck and that aviation is a fickle mistress.
One minute your being dragged into bed.the next your standing on the doorstep with no clothes and nowhere to go
Two Tun good luck
The world has moved on.
As I have said in my earlier post, this is the age of ME PLC.
It is not a question really of what is good bad etc
The party is over and that is it.
A young friend of mine is building hours and often asks me for advice.
Here it is:
We are all responsible for our own skills portfolio and that once you get in the seat anything can happen out of it
Fail a medical, car accident,.........ad infinitum
Then what are you going to do? all that effort and suddenly you are unemployable. The plumber in 27C that you saw coming onboard and sneered at last week is now far more valuable than you. (this is allegorical)
As I learned working in the North Sea you are only as good as your last paycheck and that aviation is a fickle mistress.
One minute your being dragged into bed.the next your standing on the doorstep with no clothes and nowhere to go
Two Tun good luck
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When an employer in UK aviation which has a reputation for providing better than the average T&Cs turns round and bites an employee group and there is an understandable adverse reaction, it is always baffling that far from support from fellow aviation professionals a common reaction is "you're not getting as stuffed as some so just assume the position and take what's coming to you". Would you lot not be happy until everyone in our industry is treated like 18th century navvies? Why?
Why is it that some people think that we should all strive for the lowest common denominator? Why is it that some people think that a company cannot be profitable and look after its people too? Why is there often thinly veiled satisfaction at seeing another group being kicked, just because your own group might have been kicked before and harder too?
If you cannot extracate yourselves from this pathetic playground attitude then you will be partly responsible for a downward spiral in the rewards of engaging in this career - we should all try to support those who get the sh1tty end of the stick, and we should all see that some will be treated better than others and that we should support that to raise the bar for everyone else too.
Why is it that some people think that we should all strive for the lowest common denominator? Why is it that some people think that a company cannot be profitable and look after its people too? Why is there often thinly veiled satisfaction at seeing another group being kicked, just because your own group might have been kicked before and harder too?
If you cannot extracate yourselves from this pathetic playground attitude then you will be partly responsible for a downward spiral in the rewards of engaging in this career - we should all try to support those who get the sh1tty end of the stick, and we should all see that some will be treated better than others and that we should support that to raise the bar for everyone else too.
I am a figment of my own imagination
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NW and Hovis while I applaud the sentiment that the bar is to go ever higher and everybody gets more, the real world alas, doesn't work quite that way. It must have escaped your attention that the aviation scene has been hit hard in addition to intense competition from the low cost carriers. Where pray will the money come from when everybody is continualy raising this benefit and pay package? Yes it is possible to be profitable and to give a good package but BA is no longer getting government handouts and has to earn the money ie become/remain competative. The laws of supply and demand surely have to figure in your bar building somewhere. The fact that the majority of staff remain for long periods of time indicate amongst other things that the conditions were good and probably still are.
Hovis with your attitude it would probably be a good thing if you did. Besides if you have been fortunate enough to have escaped so far without ever being laid off ever, quit while your ahead
Hovis with your attitude it would probably be a good thing if you did. Besides if you have been fortunate enough to have escaped so far without ever being laid off ever, quit while your ahead
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The question seems to be, is it their fault or BA's that they are 'stuck in a corner' with no-where to go?
Should they have had they're eyes open and jumped ship while the going was good, (i.e. pre paris crash, 9/11 etc) retrained, grabbed those transferable skills in whatever, taken the short term hit in terms of pay and conditions for the long term prospect on continued employment, albeit in another job, industry, etc?
No of course not, because they couldn't predict the future, just like everyone else. To my knowledge, BA always made very public statements in the 1990's to keep Concorde flying until 2010 etc, so it would have been a fair and reasonable assumption that there was some long term continuality.
Should they have had they're eyes open and jumped ship while the going was good, (i.e. pre paris crash, 9/11 etc) retrained, grabbed those transferable skills in whatever, taken the short term hit in terms of pay and conditions for the long term prospect on continued employment, albeit in another job, industry, etc?
No of course not, because they couldn't predict the future, just like everyone else. To my knowledge, BA always made very public statements in the 1990's to keep Concorde flying until 2010 etc, so it would have been a fair and reasonable assumption that there was some long term continuality.
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So, lets get this straight.
Concorde Flight Engineers are miffed because the 'ole bird is being parked and they are out of a job.
Would presume all of these guys are senior with the company, earning near the max for the position.
Yet, have not actually noticed here exactly what they are to receive (might have missed it tho with the six pages) so what is it?
What do they expect? A permanent seat in the executive boardroom?
End of aeroplane...end of job, period.
Oh....boohoo
PS: Can just see one of these guys being bossed around by one of BA's limp-wristed finest in the cabin. 
Concorde Flight Engineers are miffed because the 'ole bird is being parked and they are out of a job.
Would presume all of these guys are senior with the company, earning near the max for the position.
Yet, have not actually noticed here exactly what they are to receive (might have missed it tho with the six pages) so what is it?
What do they expect? A permanent seat in the executive boardroom?
End of aeroplane...end of job, period.
Oh....boohoo
PS: Can just see one of these guys being bossed around by one of BA's limp-wristed finest in the cabin.
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I think this thread is a wind up.
I am a BALPA member, nothing along these lines has appeared in the mail or the BALPA forum.
A postal ballot would be required, which I think requires 28 days, and then strikes and other sanctions must be timed within 28 days of any postal ballot of members, with seven days' notice being given to the employer.
By this time the lovely white bird will be retired.
Once again, its a wind up folks!
I am a BALPA member, nothing along these lines has appeared in the mail or the BALPA forum.
A postal ballot would be required, which I think requires 28 days, and then strikes and other sanctions must be timed within 28 days of any postal ballot of members, with seven days' notice being given to the employer.
By this time the lovely white bird will be retired.
Once again, its a wind up folks!
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rho_tait, you said:
I really do wish it was a wind-up.
Firstly, you will see nothing in the BALPA forum, because the 18 Concorde Flight engineers are totally fed up with BALPA. Rob Hall allowed BA to word the last pay agreement for Flight Engineers in such a manner as it allowed BA to throw half the F/E's off the fleet just before March's pay deal came through.
Secondly, the over-whelming opinion amongst the F/Es is that Rob Hall strung us along for months, telling us to leave it to him and BALPA to sort out our retirement / redeployment, only to turn round a few weeks ago and ****** off to management whilst telling us, incidently, that we didn't have a leg to stand on.
So, this issue won't be gracing the pages of any BALPA Log or Forum.
Lastly, we have a Standing Conference with BA this coming Wednesday, after which the 18 of us (not the pilots - it's not their issue) will call for a ballot. Within a week, we will be balloted. If we collectively decide that we don't need 28 days to ballot 18 members, then we don't need 28 days.
Lastly, if any strike action is called, it will only involve the Flight Engineers. And that's all you need to stop Concorde flying.
regards
I think this thread is a wind up.
I am a BALPA member, nothing along these lines has appeared in the mail or the BALPA forum.
A postal ballot would be required, which I think requires 28 days, and then strikes and other sanctions must be timed within 28 days of any postal ballot of members, with seven days' notice being given to the employer.
By this time the lovely white bird will be retired.
Once again, its a wind up folks!
I am a BALPA member, nothing along these lines has appeared in the mail or the BALPA forum.
A postal ballot would be required, which I think requires 28 days, and then strikes and other sanctions must be timed within 28 days of any postal ballot of members, with seven days' notice being given to the employer.
By this time the lovely white bird will be retired.
Once again, its a wind up folks!
Firstly, you will see nothing in the BALPA forum, because the 18 Concorde Flight engineers are totally fed up with BALPA. Rob Hall allowed BA to word the last pay agreement for Flight Engineers in such a manner as it allowed BA to throw half the F/E's off the fleet just before March's pay deal came through.
Secondly, the over-whelming opinion amongst the F/Es is that Rob Hall strung us along for months, telling us to leave it to him and BALPA to sort out our retirement / redeployment, only to turn round a few weeks ago and ****** off to management whilst telling us, incidently, that we didn't have a leg to stand on.
So, this issue won't be gracing the pages of any BALPA Log or Forum.
Lastly, we have a Standing Conference with BA this coming Wednesday, after which the 18 of us (not the pilots - it's not their issue) will call for a ballot. Within a week, we will be balloted. If we collectively decide that we don't need 28 days to ballot 18 members, then we don't need 28 days.
Lastly, if any strike action is called, it will only involve the Flight Engineers. And that's all you need to stop Concorde flying.
regards