Originally Posted by Aluminium Mallard
(Post 11507570)
both are really smart people with little mechanical knowledge completely convinced by the marketing.
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Do you have a similar 'permit to fly' system for experimental aircraft there? They are issued a Special Certificate of Airworthiness: https://www.casa.gov.au/experimental-certificates CASA recognises UK: https://www.casa.gov.au/sites/defaul...agreements.pdf Certification of Amateur Built Aircraft (Part 13 building outside AU): https://www.casa.gov.au/certificatio...-abaa-aircraft More on commercial assistance for amateur built aircraft (basically engines/rotors/avionics excluded, but fabrication & assembly required): https://www.casa.gov.au/commercial-a...built-aircraft |
I've trained two pilots now that have dropped HX50 deposits, both are really smart people with little mechanical knowledge completely convinced by the marketing. |
Originally Posted by Shagpile
(Post 11508234)
Yep - experimental amateur built aircraft are massive in Australia. I have one.
Certification of Amateur Built Aircraft (Part 13 building outside AU): https://www.casa.gov.au/certificatio...-abaa-aircraft How does the HX fit into that? They have a fairly detailed list to calculate the 50% fabrication portion, with Hill pre-fabbing a lot of the components, I am curious to see how it complies, it appears to be more assembly than anything else. |
Originally Posted by Bell_ringer
(Post 11508251)
So limited to 4 seats and 3300 lbs MTOW.
How does the HX fit into that? They have a fairly detailed list to calculate the 50% fabrication portion, with Hill pre-fabbing a lot of the components, I am curious to see how it complies, it appears to be more assembly than anything else. FAA have a complex formula to determine what constitutes 51% and JH has mentioned several times that commercially assisted build and assembly will comply. Most major components such as engines, gears, avionics, blades (etc) are allowed to come factory built. He mentioned the owner will be involved in composite fuselage layup, and basically all assembly. I’m sure he will get this compliant and if it ticks the FAA formula, it should satisfy every other jurisdiction. |
He mentioned the owner will be involved in composite fuselage layup, and basically all assembly |
Unskilled labour involved in the creation of the crucial component of the aircraft, the monocoque fuselage, who could see a problem with that? In this case, it's literally builder assist & there's an inspection regime afterwards to test for hull integrity & dry spots etc. Thousands of pilots build their own perfectly safe aircraft all the time. Some from kit, some from design, including maintenance critical items such as spars and flight controls. Yep some are horrendous if built fully unqualified with zero assistance and poor quality skills, tools & equipment, but those are the ones that get an inspector put on rigid requirements such as "POB 1, within 10NM of a remote airport, not over or near any built up area. Good luck". This project will not be that kind of aircraft. It'll be more like a high quality RV10 you see that's as good or better than the equivalent factory SR22. |
Originally Posted by [email protected]
(Post 11508562)
Unskilled labour involved in the creation of the crucial component of the aircraft, the monocoque fuselage, who could see a problem with that?
The HX50 will be exactly the same as the certified HC50 version, and built to certification standards, but with the following differences: 1. it will be available several years earlier 2. it will be significantly cheaper 3. the purchaser will be involved in the final assembly 4. it cannot be used for any commercial purposes 5. it cannot be retrospectively certified. It’s tempting to get caught up in the details of exactly what the owner will be contributing to the build to comply with the 51% rule, but I think at the end of the day this will essentially just involve assembly. There are so many items exempt from this 51% and I very much doubt that any customers will actually be laying up carbon fibre! I am actually really looking forward to the assembly of my own machine as it will allow a much deeper understanding of it. I have absolutely no interest in x-hiring my HX50 commercially etc. Or moonlighting a few charters! I will be the only one that will be flying my ship, and purely for private recreation and travel so not at all bothered by the lack of certification, provided it is designed and built to the same standards. Would rather get it sooner and cheaper. |
Originally Posted by Shagpile
(Post 11508594)
Thousands of pilots build their own perfectly safe aircraft all the time.
An RV is nowhere as advanced as what is required for the HX. Kit build helicopters have been a disaster to date. |
The 51% build rule is just a ruse to get the CAA to grant a Permit to Fly. All the owner will be doing is this..
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....1600dc98a3.jpg |
This is where lack of knowledge on the project is important, inspection regime afterwards to test for hull integrity & dry spots etc. As BellRinger says, the HX is far more complex than a microlight at every level - I've flown some and the engineering is pretty basic because it is a homebuild/assisted build.. When we see you potential owners cutting up the pre-preg and operating the autoclave I'll believe it is a 51% build. |
Originally Posted by [email protected]
(Post 11508758)
Do you actually know anything about composite materials?
Non destructive testing (NDT) for composites is a holy grail yet to be achieved which is why the layup is critical to eliminate voids which can cause structural failure under load. As BellRinger says, the HX is far more complex than a microlight at every level - I've flown some and the engineering is pretty basic because it is a homebuild/assisted build.. When we see you potential owners cutting up the pre-preg and operating the autoclave I'll believe it is a 51% build. It's dry carbon done under vaccuum infusion... |
There's no pre-preg or autoclave involved. It's dry carbon done under vaccuum infusion... |
Vacuum Infusion Process
SHORTCOMINGS OF VIPMost of the disadvantages of vacuum infusion are linked to the process’s long set-up time and general handling. Unlike hand lamination, vacuum resin infusion requires one to strategize and develop the optimal vacuum ports and resin injection locations for each composite that is made.Furthermore, it also requires an experienced hand and can become expensive if there are continuous vacuum leaks as the entire part will have to be binned. Its cosmetic finish is also not as good as open mold processes due to the fabric print; however, this can be amended using a barrier coat. At this stage of the process’s development, vacuum infusion is more suited to smaller projects. Too much time is required for applications that need high production rates or more complex processes on a mass scale. This is especially true when multiple-use flexible films or top molds are needed for one-off or large parts. |
Luckily for us, Hill has just spent 2 years working out exactly the layup strategy, vacuum locations, resin parameters, temperatures etc.
I suspect he hired half of Williams F1. And that's the team you want to poach your composites guys from because they are crashing every week and have lots of experience rebuilding the car and keeping the driver alive!! |
don't forget he's going to be making 500 aircraft a year.
that's two aircraft rolling off the production line (and being test flown, collected, built by the owner etc) every weekday maybe i should start a B&B in the area |
TBH, I don't think owner will do more than a sniff of resin and be done with layup part.
I do wish for Hill to succeed, if for nothing more than "in your face" to established manufacturers. As long as any person being flown in one of these understands the risks, I'm good with whatever 51% scheme they come out. That still does not erase all the bull he spouted so far and I fully intend to call it out every time . |
Originally Posted by admikar
(Post 11508811)
TBH, I don't think owner will do more than a sniff of resin and be done with layup part.
I do wish for Hill to succeed, if for nothing more than "in your face" to established manufacturers. As long as any person being flown in one of these understands the risks, I'm good with whatever 51% scheme they come out. That still does not erase all the bull he spouted so far and I fully intend to call it out every time . |
Originally Posted by Shagpile
(Post 11508777)
Luckily for us, Hill has just spent 2 years working out exactly the layup strategy, vacuum locations, resin parameters, temperatures etc.
I suspect he hired half of Williams F1. And that's the team you want to poach your composites guys from because they are crashing every week and have lots of experience rebuilding the car and keeping the driver alive!! |
There are tons of aircraft (certified) with composite monocoque bodies. This is not new. Many airplanes use carbon-fiber.
I agree with Bell's comment about culture, though I don't blame Hill. They need to market it to get customers, and they're not specifically targeting morons (unlike Icon), but there inevitably will be interest from non-pilots. I was on a zoom meeting with the reps a month ago and one of the other customers on the call was not even a pilot but was interested and asking some (not well-informed, needless to say) questions about it. But I'm sure the vast majority are pilots. |
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