|
Yes, it's like making the ground fit the map in the early stages of getting lost and until something so obviously wrong appears, it is too easy to convince yourself all is well and just as you planned it.
|
Originally Posted by dClbydalpha
(Post 9772995)
I think it's important to make a distinction between confusion and incorrect SA.
Confusion is a lack of understanding or lack of confidence in the information presented. This crew showed no sign of questioning that accompanies confusion. Compare this with the transcript of AF447, where everyone is trying to grasp what is going on. I am convinced that this crew started the last phase of the flight with a clear, albeit incorrect, mental picture of what was ahead and how they would deal with it. Nothing in that aircraft, crew, training, procedure or technology was compelling enough to cause a re-assessment of that mental picture. In fact, it appears that most cues were readily incorporated into the existing SA. Until the moment that something untoward was seen on the electroptics. |
This gets back to my question about "How" and "Why".
"How" is the triggering event....and "Why" is what set it all up for the "How" to happen.....as I see it. |
The how is easy, the aircraft was flying below MSA for the area.
The why, is because the crew hadn't got a clue they were below MSA due to inadequacies in the charts they were using. They knew perfectly well where they were, the chart displayed just didn't show them to be in any danger. That led to confusion when an obstruction was identified ahead, because the chart would be expected to show anything large or tall enough to cause danger to the aircraft. It really doesn't have to be any more complicated than that. |
Originally Posted by G0ULI
(Post 9774559)
The how is easy, the aircraft was flying below MSA for the area.
The why, is because the crew hadn't got a clue they were below MSA due to inadequacies in the charts they were using. They knew perfectly well where they were, the chart displayed just didn't show them to be in any danger. That led to confusion when an obstruction was identified ahead, because the chart would be expected to show anything large or tall enough to cause danger to the aircraft. It really doesn't have to be any more complicated than that. |
MSA
Gouli,
at 200ft you know you are below msa! |
(Posted in error)
|
|
Originally Posted by jeepys
(Post 9774767)
Gouli,
at 200ft you know you are below msa! No you don't know if your (electronic) maps don't show any obstacles higher than 30ft. In hindsight obviously we know better. It is sad to see how a combination of inexact information and certain logic in the equipment that by itself would not cause a big risk/problem (280ft high obstacle in open sea not shown in EGPWS database, not or only partly shown in moving map, depending on mode, EGPWS inhibition in low altitude mode, deactivated clutter suppression, in exactly this combination lining up for a perfect disaster) still makes such a scenario possible even in such a modern machine. Very enlightening regarding unwanted consequences of features. Why they cruised at 200ft for such an extended period of time will probably remain a mystery, though. |
Has anybody on this thread got any information as to how the search for the two missing crew is going.
|
Henry,
I don't know what rules you work to but I have always known msa to be 1000 ft about highest object. At 200 ft you are therefore obviously below msa regardless of what your paper or electronic map says. Offshore MSA is 1000ft or 1500ft in areas of wind turbines. |
Why they cruised at 200ft for such an extended period of time will probably remain a mystery, though. One scenario is that they "let down" over the ocean. Got clear of cloud. Then followed a route (clear of cloud, but in the dark?) at a height they thought they were safe at. Any mystery in my mind is why they thought the route was safe at 200'. The tragedy in my mind is all the safety back stops not working, especially EGWPS. |
I may have missed it in the previous pages but has there been any info on the vertical path of this procedure?
|
Jeepys - We are talking SAR here and there are different rules for them that take into account their mission, the training and the equipment on board. Read the previous posts and you will get the picture.
G |
"Dive and drive" is the term you may be looking for.
It has its uses but........................ |
Geoffrey,
Well aware of that but I thought they were following a company let down route? |
Originally Posted by jeepys
(Post 9779682)
Geoffrey,
Well aware of that but I thought they were following a company let down route? |
Democritus,
Seen that thanks but where is page two of the route guide giving other info? Is there info on that page that gives advisory heights etc? |
For the jeep seats:
As stated further up this page. They "let down" over the sea. A common, and safe practice. They were using a company VFR route guide. To get to the refueling destination. Not a "let down route". No vertical guidance. Spot heights were included on the second page. This is only my understanding from reading the report, with both eyes open, some experience, and a healthy interest. |
Yes so the second page is pretty important for any height/vertical guidance or spot heights
|
Why fly around with the gear down over the sea,with at least 10+ miles to land...?
|
Originally Posted by sycamore
(Post 9780150)
Why fly around with the gear down over the sea,with at least 10+ miles to land...?
|
Originally Posted by jeepys
(Post 9779845)
Yes so the second page is pretty important for any height/vertical guidance or spot heights
|
I posted earlier, Irish Aviation Authority VFR maps use a red circle as the symbol for a lighthouse. |
Black dot for light house!
I just pulled out my Dads old ICAO 1:500 000 VFR chart to check how a lighthouse is marked.:
It is with a black dot, no elevation or height and Feiestein Light ( WestSW of SVG for example) And in the margin a fine drawing of the lighthouse with 112 on top of it. Probably a fine thing for Mr VFR on one of his trips to Stavanger for coffee and waffels, but rather crude even if at scale 1:250 000 for any low level night stuff. Anyway, if the chart had used the ICAO Annex 4 black dot with Blackrock Light printed next to it, we would perhaps not have had this exchange. |
Pass the parcel
State safety plan 2017;
"In common with the practice in many States, an Irish hel- icopter operator may be involved in both civil aviation activities (eg CAT/HEMS) and state functions (eg SAR). Whereas the IAA has safety oversight of the civil aviation operations, the oversight of state functions rests with the Department of Transport Tourism and Sport. " https://www.iaa.ie/docs/default-source/default-document-library/iaa-state-safety-report-2017-2020.pdf?sfvrsn=0 This is interesting, especially considering the following; "The IAA maintains an Aviation Rescue Co-ordination Centre (ARCC) at Shannon Airport and an Aviation Rescue Sub-Centre (ARSC) at Dublin Airport. The Safety Regulation Division of the IAA is the body responsible for the regulation and oversight of aircraft operations, including aeronautical Search and Rescue, within the State." http://www.dttas.ie/sites/default/files/publications/maritime/english/irish-national-maritime-search-and-rescue-sar-framework/sar-framework.pdf So, when the music stops, who is left holding the parcel, unfortunately it is the crew of R116 and their colleagues who are and have to deal with a politically and commercially driven environment. My highest respect to all working in this vacuum. |
All gone very quiet - any update on the two missing crew?
|
RTÉ's flag ship current affairs programme "Prime Time" has tonight (13th July) carried a report claiming that Sligo based SAR pilots had back in 2013 informed CHC of issues with the information regarding Blackrock Island in the oboard maps.
https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2017...ckrock-island/ JAS |
The TV report is here: https://www.rte.ie/player/ie/show/pr...3379/10750839/
|
hang on.....
Doesn't CHC hold an annual 'global' safety seminar, accompanied with a lot of PR bolleux?
They would have surely practiced what they preached and ensured feedback/compliance/ closing the loop.........and would have ran that particular issue up the flag pole to signal action and further ownership of the challenge before going forward...... I think it's about time CHC cease the annual farce of their safety seminar until they actually 'practice what they preach'....... |
Lots of shoulder shrugging going on....as forecast.:(
|
Management/regulatory cockup of the grandest scale. Mystery now is that nobody in either the IAA or operator management team has been sacked. No comfort from all the good advice post incident, I'd want the competence on my team to foresee issues Before they turned into an accident. Quite a number of contributors to this thread have correctly been puzzled that the operation lacked any sophistication or depth of foresight by either the regulator or operator management. Either group could benefit from recruiting from that pool.
|
Meanwhile, some "safety manager" is trying to dream up an acronym for the next "safety system".
|
It just makes me wonder why on earth they weren't glued to the radar if they knew they couldn't rely on EGPWS.
|
Originally Posted by BluSdUp
(Post 9782622)
I just pulled out my Dads old ICAO 1:500 000 VFR chart to check how a lighthouse is marked.:
It is with a black dot, no elevation or height and Feiestein Light ( WestSW of SVG for example) And in the margin a fine drawing of the lighthouse with 112 on top of it. Probably a fine thing for Mr VFR on one of his trips to Stavanger for coffee and waffels, but rather crude even if at scale 1:250 000 for any low level night stuff. Anyway, if the chart had used the ICAO Annex 4 black dot with Blackrock Light printed next to it, we would perhaps not have had this exchange. The new map has a blue circle (revised lighthouse symbol?) with text alongside giving a description of the lighthouse (174/frequency etc) but crucially now has the height of the island (712) marked by a smaller black circle. 712 also is now in the white rectangle. |
Rescue 116 crash: Pilots’ group raised concerns over IAA |
Latest search for Rescue 116 winch crew is stood down Search for R116 crew continues off Blackrock Island Search for missing Rescue 116 airmen continues 130 days on Further searches take place off Blackrock Island for Rescue 116 crew Rescue 116: Donegal trawler resumes search around Blackrock island Donegal trawler continues fresh search for Rescue 116 airmen |
Private Equity firms and boxes of lean tape.
Originally Posted by Twist & Shout
(Post 9830201)
Meanwhile, some "safety manager" is trying to dream up an acronym for the next "safety system".
They do not know or understand what safety in aviation means. Yet some of them sponsor real Safety & Quality Summits with real speakers. If it's true that this unfortunate accident was the result of out-dated software and that it was brought up time and time again internally, than the ones responsible for choosing more lean tape instead of software updates should be forced to meet the families and explain it to them. Then they should be banned from stepping into any aviation company, for life. Of course I'm assuming that someone chose lean tape over software updates and I may be totally off-course. I would lean more towards a total lack of understanding of the helicopter business and what we call safety. I have seen a shift through the years and it is not good. The village idiots are definitely in charge now and they hold MBA's and more! They're not smart enough to know any better, but they can tell you how to lean a production plant in a heart beat. None of us work for production plants. Scary times! Good thing I'm retiring soon! |
It's being reported that a helmet and lifejacket found on the coast on Saturday belonged to winchman Ciarán Smith.
From The Irish Times, 2nd Oct 2017 https://www.irishtimes.com/news/irel...mith-1.3241642 JAS |
Truly shocking!!!!!!!
Ongoing safety concerns for search and rescue helicopter services RTÉ’s Prime Time also reported that a few weeks before the R116 crash, Coast Guard pilots began testing a new electronic mapping system which was uploaded on to a mini iPad and strapped to the pilots' knee boards. Both pilots on R116 took these iPads on board on the night of the crash off the Co Mayo coast. The map that was used was not approved for use as a navigation tool as it was still on trial. It showed Black Rock Island at 46ft, however, it is 282ft at its highest point. RTÉ’s Prime Time has learned that the search and rescue teams had been complaining about poor quality maps and navigation equipment for months before the crash. In September 2016, a flight safety meeting attended by R116 winch man Paul Ormsby, discussed feedback on their new Operations Manual. The manual warned that the moving map system on board the helicopters should not be used for primary navigation "as it provides insufficient detail and is not kept up to date". https://twitter.com/KatieGHannon RTE Primetime - report should appear here soon https://www.rte.ie/news/player/prime-time/ Rescue 116: HSA investigation opens possibility of prosecutions Faulty locator beacons in crew’s life jackets highlighted five years ago, RTÉ reports |
| All times are GMT. The time now is 19:23. |
Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.