Breathe deeply Vie! Everyone who has seen the navy SAR flights do their thing up close knows that one of the key elements helping them to punch above their weight is the responsibility shared with the back. Hopefully one of them will PM to JB and help him understand.

JunglieBeefer - you have made my point far better than I did:ugh:

Bristow have said theirs will be a new ethos distilled from the best of the current systems - unfortunately from what can be gathered about their recruiting and manning policy it will be Navy SAR in a different uniform

Junglie - when will you ever learn. La-la is only here to 'hook' people.....stay away if you can't cope with the baiting. However when you do speak you speak the truth!

Vie: SAR, like ALL complex tasking is only EVER about Captaincy. The term describes the command decision making that goes on. It is a generic description not neccessarily owned by pilots. Some Navy cabs have Captains sitting in the back as Observers for eg.

RAF SAR first tourers will ALWAYS have a more experienced 'Captain' sitting next to them and holding their hand. They will receive advice from the rear crew but ONLY the Captain will make the final decision. Hence "Captaincy".

You might be getting it mixed up with: SAR and Captaincy.

SAR is about getting the rear crew to the scene to do their stuff.
Captaincy is all about carrying out that act - safely and efficiently.

Overall - and this is for everyone out there....do not misunderstand:
SAR is NOT a black art, it is a run of the mill secondary duty for "experienced" crews. Nothing more and nothing less. However many have tried to build massive empires on the back of it. [Bit like HR!].

Having spent the last ten years flying as a police air observer can I just say that we don't fly anywhere based on a postcode..?

Admittedly we tend to cover a small area compared to a SAR crew and the majority of it is done with a street atlas. However when called (fairly regularly) to go further afield we simply breakout the maps and navigate there..!!

The point is we actually do know how to use OS, Grid, Lat/Long... Whatever gets thrown at us.

Postcodes can be useful when using Skyforce... However only when navigating to a house.

We're more versatile than that thank you.

So proving that the RN is the best then?

TC - you of all people should know better! Op Captaincy in the RAFSARF is exactly that - and there are no filters protecting a new Captain, he or she could be on shift with the least experienced co-pilot the day after being awarded captaincy - it's one of the reasons the Sqn Cdrs make such a big deal about it.

And, to be clear, SAR is not a black art but it requires lots of training to be good at it and 'run of the mill' it certainly isn't but only people with TC's background insist on thinking like that;)

Crab: By that account then one could argue that a not very experienced RAF crew might be called upon to do any SAR mission - hence why it is relatively straight forward and uncomplicated and 'secondary'.....:eek:

My previous post was extolling the virtues of 'new' RAF ab initio's being escorted everywhere by more experienced Captains to start...before they are 'let loose'.:p

Do me a favour 'switch_on_lofty'. Send me the link to the Bristow job ad for Observers. I must have missed that one.

La La et al,

My apologies I agree wholeheartedly that SAR is all about the guys down the back - however the argument I was responding to revolved around how there was going to be a drop in capability due to a change in aircraft - seeing as it is safe to assume that initally the majority of winchops and winchmen will be coming from the military and that their skills are not specific to a particular aircraft (dynamic risk assessment / paramedic skills / winch skills and a plethora of others ...) - I assumed that the drop in capability you were refering to (and specifically local area knowledge), related to of pilots adapting to the new aircraft - hence my point.

My post was not clear in this regard and apologies for any dispersion cast at the guys down the back.

Humbly yours,

JB

PS. La La with regard to you comment re drop in capability - what complete guff!

So people getting in via the Managed Transition are guaranteed a job at or near their current mil location, to preserve local knowledge? Indeed...

Can I just say how much I am enjoying this thread:D

Lots of crabs just digging and digging.....


....and every self impressed statement makes them less and less likely to make up much of future SAR.

Carry on!

p.s. it's just hovering.

What are you trying to say Tourist? Don't they have PA Scale in the Navy?:E

Link as requested
 

jimf671 (is this your Dii login btw?)

Try google next time but here you go!

https://bristowsar.com/index.php/recruitment/

I'd suggest that WinchOp isn't quite the same as Observer but make of that what you will. Compared to an Observers' primary roles the winch bit is fairly straightforward from what I've seen.

SoL

(Last three from a very very early previous existence! DII much more complicated.)

One of the reasons that I am so sure that all the current providers have something to bring to the table is because of these differences in responsibilities and career structure either in the back or in the front.

This is the UK's first entirely planned service. If Bristow can be Darwinian about it then the diversity can breed evolution.

For me, one of the slightly more interesting bits about the Agusta Westland press release is thisNow, I could have sworn that there was a Labour Secretary of State for Defence called Geoff Hoon. If I remember correctly, he was rather suddenly reshuffled to Transport, and was subsequently dropped from all frontline politics after the 2010 Cash for Influence scandal. Or perhaps that was someone called Buff Hoon?

So, whoever it was, it seems that that famous revolving door is still merrily going round - especially when you remember that when that Hoon was Def Sec, AW was awarded a £1.7billion contract as preferred bidder to supply Future Lynx. I don't remember any other firm being invited to bid.

Funny old world.

airsound (who apologises for thread drift)

Not so much thread drift as the revolving door not being news!

Anyone heard anything about the SAR prototype? That would be much more interesting.

I must say, I am surprised to see the SVP International Business getting his mug shot into a UK signing photo opportunity, as one would think a photo shoot at Palam Air Force Base in India would be more in keeping with his position.

As some say, a funny old world. ;)

On their homepage https://bristowsar.com/ Bristow are claiming that they are 'the leading provider of search and rescue services in the UK'. How have they managed to reach these heights in just six weeks of GapSAR and what is the yardstick by which they are measuring their excellence?

Elsewhere they claim to have 'enormous respect for the service that our military colleagues have provided over the last 70 years of UK Search and Rescue'. Perhaps they could show some of that respect by dropping the claim that they already exceed their capabilities.

Satsuma.

Stop it!
Bristow have been involved in SAR operations around the UK since a WS 55 operation at Manston in the late 60s early 70s. The crews will do a fantastic job as always!

How do you know this? I'm sure they'll try their best but how do you know it will be 'fantastic'? How will this excellence be measured?

It's outrageous for Bristow to claim that they're top dogs after just six weeks of providing the service at just one (and now two) locations. Manston 40 years ago is an irrelevance. SAR has moved on a little since then.

Bristow had the contract for civil UK SAR before CHC won the contract back in i think 2005 ish.

Satsuma. Eight posts so far; all but one slagging some aspect of the successful SAR bid. As previous stated Bristow ran it for some twenty odd years.

Why don't you move on.

Satsuma, I'm with Fareastdriver on this one. Your contribution so far demonstrates a poor grasp of the facts.

The facts are out there. They are waiting for you.

If you need help with that then PM me.

How does that make them the UK's leading SAR provider?

Maybe, because after a fair and transparent bid process, they were selected from all the competition to be exactly that? :ugh::ugh::ugh:

There are many qualities that may lead to an operator being respected as "leading", however I don't think being cheapest would be one of them - which is almost certainly why they were selected :E

I have as many questions as anyone about how this ended up so cheap, particularly with the aircraft numbers being increased in the later stages of the process. However, it is worth remembering that Bristows were cheapest only of the three who made it to the later stages.

If the facts show that Bristow do well, I shall praise them. If the facts show that Bristow screw up, then, unless it's something I know they have been well warned about, I shall give them a second chance. If the facts show that they persistently fail then I shall experience a strong desire to get very vocal but instead I shall probably try to get constructive.

At the moment, they are a few weeks into Gap, they have a decent plan for the Main contract, though a rather vulnerable timetable for the 189.

To be fair, it wasn't all about price and a great deal hinged on demonstrating to the DfT that all the promises could be delivered on and that suitable contingency plans were in place to cover all sorts of eventualities.

What is slightly concerning is that the DfT have been advertising for a SAR transition co-ordinator (a fairly important and crucial job methinks) but, due to civil service blinkers and structures, the salary is £41K. The old saying of pay peanuts and get monkeys comes to mind:ugh:

https://jobs.civilservice.gov.uk/com...JmMTIzZWRhMzA=

Currently the civil service are undergoing a pay freeze.
I hope for the sake of the industry, that the successful incumbent exercises their priviliges passionately and not because they are only a Level 7 public servant. Good luck with this hugely responsible job.

First time I ever heard anyone call £41,000 a year peanuts!!!!

After tax and NI that is about £30,000; £4,000 above average take home pay. An SAR co-pilot would get more than that.

Eric,

The successful applicant will be responsible for ensuring an EU directive is carried out to national standards and ensuring that a military to civilian conversion is not only seamless but fit for purpose. This transition is one of the bigger DfT initiatives of recent times and they are deeming it Level 7 supervisory standard.
For joe public that is Flight Lt level or Aldi manager level.

I don't blame the MCA for this, it's the ones who pull their strings that have attached this little importance to the post. But the MCA will be remembered as the agonists.

Peanuts to Crab and TC though. :-)



However, taking a look at TC's estimation of Flt Lt status, I checked on MoD-DASA website. It says that a Grade 7/Principal Officer/Band 2, is equivalent to OF-5, which is Group Captain. Obviously not Gp Capt wages though.

Crab

:D:D:D:D

Variable load

If you were faced with 2 building quotes (ignoring Bond only because they didn't bid on lot 3), both for work on your house, i.e. the same work. Purporting to deliver the same standard at completion (give or take an extra light here for an extra plug there). Both with proven success in the past, why, oh why would you choose the one that freely admits that the 20% extra it was going to charge was just a boardroom policy to keep profits up. Why are you so bent on cheap equaling poor value? :sad:

I bet you never go to Tesco/asda/morrisons (delete as appropriate) for your petrol!!

You're right. I never go to Tesco/Asda/Morrisons for my petrol. They drop out during the pre-selection stages of the procurement process and I go to the cheapest of those remaining.

So the CS officer who is required to:

will be paid less than a Yr 1 co-pilot on the very scheme that he seems to hold overall responsibility for delivery?

Should attract some first class candidates there...

ferzakerly........