Which is the best helicopter for training?
Bugsmasherdriverandjediknite
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OK, so I'm new to all this and only have experianced fighting the R22 around the block, but why cant the instructers switch the govener off so you can get a bit of throttle experiance...... surely after you think you have it mastered, the govener comes off and you start learning again. wouldn't this some how prepare you a little bit better for another type endorsment?.
I'm new to this whirlymagig bizo, but am a 5000hr fixed wing pilot, and I found the R22 to be a slippery little bugga........but then again, when I started bashing around in a twin for the first time I found that to be a slippery lil bugga too....now its easy and I hope this whirlymagig bizzo gets easier. Are differant types really that much harder to fly?.
I'm new to this whirlymagig bizo, but am a 5000hr fixed wing pilot, and I found the R22 to be a slippery little bugga........but then again, when I started bashing around in a twin for the first time I found that to be a slippery lil bugga too....now its easy and I hope this whirlymagig bizzo gets easier. Are differant types really that much harder to fly?.
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As the person who started this discussion (on a different thread), a few points bear repeating.
Yes many of us, myself included, are very grateful to Frank Robinson and the R22, as without it we could not have afforded to learn to fly. But, now owning a B47, it's clear that the conversion from R22/R44 is almost like learning to fly all over again. Mechanical aids make you lazy and your brain is not programmed with the necessary reflexes when things go wrong.
I am certain that a governor and assisted carb heat are a bad idea on the 22, or any other trainer. This is not an obscure technical issue about pilot's preferences, but far more serious. More than one self-fly hire R22 pilot who trained with them has died when flying an earlier machine without these aids.
When you consider the number of type ratings the rotary world has to contend with, I think this issue is more important than the differences between some machines. Yes, the automatic car licence anology is a good one.
Aside from the arguments over which is the best machine to train on (it won't change - it'll always be the cheapest), the solution is simple - all training flights should be conducted with these aids switched OFF.
By all means use the governor when starting new exercises, say, hover practice, but predominantly training should be without them.
I think training schools need to look hard at their policy on this issue.
Yes many of us, myself included, are very grateful to Frank Robinson and the R22, as without it we could not have afforded to learn to fly. But, now owning a B47, it's clear that the conversion from R22/R44 is almost like learning to fly all over again. Mechanical aids make you lazy and your brain is not programmed with the necessary reflexes when things go wrong.
I am certain that a governor and assisted carb heat are a bad idea on the 22, or any other trainer. This is not an obscure technical issue about pilot's preferences, but far more serious. More than one self-fly hire R22 pilot who trained with them has died when flying an earlier machine without these aids.
When you consider the number of type ratings the rotary world has to contend with, I think this issue is more important than the differences between some machines. Yes, the automatic car licence anology is a good one.
Aside from the arguments over which is the best machine to train on (it won't change - it'll always be the cheapest), the solution is simple - all training flights should be conducted with these aids switched OFF.
By all means use the governor when starting new exercises, say, hover practice, but predominantly training should be without them.
I think training schools need to look hard at their policy on this issue.
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What to learn in?
I have a PPL(A), but am quite interested in doing the PPL(H) too. I scan the threads in this forum from time to time, but get the distinct impression that there are two schools of thought, diametrically opposed, regarding the Robinson R22. The school in my neighbourhood uses these for training. Are they the standard training model or can I look at another type elsewhere?
MF
MF
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Your "distinct impression" is right - there are two schools of thought, diametrically opposed.
Whatever the pros/cons of the R22, it is by far the most commonly used helicopter for training and self-fly hire in the UK.
The Hughes 300 is more stable and therefore easier to fly, but it is usually more expensive.
There's nothing else I can add to what has been written in the many discussions we've had on the forum.
Choose a good school - that's arguably more important than the helicopter type.
Good Luck with your training.
Heliport
Whatever the pros/cons of the R22, it is by far the most commonly used helicopter for training and self-fly hire in the UK.
The Hughes 300 is more stable and therefore easier to fly, but it is usually more expensive.
There's nothing else I can add to what has been written in the many discussions we've had on the forum.
Choose a good school - that's arguably more important than the helicopter type.
Good Luck with your training.
Heliport
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I was trained in the R22, and would offer this for consideration. If you EVER intend on instructing as CFI(H), then you should train on the R22 because of the stick time requirement in Robbie.
Otherwise, I here the 300 is a better training platform. Also, if you plan to lease your aircraft, you should find out what is available to you in your area and where you travel. Finally, check rental requirements from different places.
I believe Robbie places that rent out aircraft require 100 hours PIC in R22 + Safety Course IF they are insured by Pathfinder insurance. Many places don't use Pathfinder.
Personally, I like the speed, altitude, and performance of the R22 over the 300CBi or 300CB. Having that said, I wouldn't limit myself if I had other options (there are 3 Robbie outfits within an hour of my house, but the nearest Schweizer is 3.5 hours by car).
Otherwise, I here the 300 is a better training platform. Also, if you plan to lease your aircraft, you should find out what is available to you in your area and where you travel. Finally, check rental requirements from different places.
I believe Robbie places that rent out aircraft require 100 hours PIC in R22 + Safety Course IF they are insured by Pathfinder insurance. Many places don't use Pathfinder.
Personally, I like the speed, altitude, and performance of the R22 over the 300CBi or 300CB. Having that said, I wouldn't limit myself if I had other options (there are 3 Robbie outfits within an hour of my house, but the nearest Schweizer is 3.5 hours by car).
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If you EVER intend on instructing as CFI(H), then you should train on the R22 because of the stick time requirement in Robbie.
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What about the good old Bell 47, or isn't anyone using them for Training anymore? The most wonderful Piston Engined Helicopter I've ever flown in and had the Privilege to work on.
As for the R22 personally I hate them its the one Helicopter I have always refused to fly in, But that is a personnal thing and I dont wish to get into an argument about it.
As for the R22 personally I hate them its the one Helicopter I have always refused to fly in, But that is a personnal thing and I dont wish to get into an argument about it.
Hovering AND talking
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Maxflyer,
I had the same dilemna a while ago deciding which helicopter to learn.
In the UK, the choices are R22, S300, Bell47 and Enstrom 28(0). In the end I sought the advice of a lot of people and went for the Schweizer on the basis that I may go on to CPL. However, the problem with all the above machines except the R22 is that they are few and far between so unless you have a local school which can self-fly hire one of these machines to you, I would go for the ubiquitous Robbo if you will only be flying for pleasure.
Also consider that the Robinson is v. small and if you are larger than average, you may not find it comfortable!!!!! (not that I'm saying you are, you understand!!!)
Cheers
Whirlygig
PS I am happy with my decision!!!
I had the same dilemna a while ago deciding which helicopter to learn.
In the UK, the choices are R22, S300, Bell47 and Enstrom 28(0). In the end I sought the advice of a lot of people and went for the Schweizer on the basis that I may go on to CPL. However, the problem with all the above machines except the R22 is that they are few and far between so unless you have a local school which can self-fly hire one of these machines to you, I would go for the ubiquitous Robbo if you will only be flying for pleasure.
Also consider that the Robinson is v. small and if you are larger than average, you may not find it comfortable!!!!! (not that I'm saying you are, you understand!!!)
Cheers
Whirlygig
PS I am happy with my decision!!!
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From my limited experience, the big advantage of the R22 is its hair-trigger responses when learning to hover. Why is that an advantage? Well, if you can make that aircraft stand still, everything else will be a piece of p155.
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I feel it is very important to learn to fly in a machine that requires good positive throttle responses like the B47 and 300. In our experience when putting on people that have learnt in R22's their throttle control is absolutly pathetic.[thank god for dual controls] We always have to spend a lot of time and money bringing them up to our standard. Also what happens to a Robbo trained pilot during a govenor failure in say a B206 ,will their responses be automatic, I think not. The best thing I can suggest in my humble opinion is to ring up future employers and ask them what they are looking for. I will bet that you get a huge range of answers about this type or that type but in the end that is up to you to sort out. (we prefere B47 trained pilots here)
Good luck and fly safe
Rotor1
Good luck and fly safe
Rotor1
Senis Semper Fidelis
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Max,
All my training and GFt was performed on the R22, not out of choice but simpley because it was the Heli that the FTO used that was nearest to my house/business, after that I did the usual conversion course's to the R44 and the B206, a lot of people critisize the R22 but at a cost £ it serves to get you able to fly a helicopter, the downside is, it is so twitchy and subject to do funny things in moments of high stress ( like hover taxiing downwind ) that once you have mastered it it seems like a dream flying something which is larger ie R44 or B206
Regards
PeterR-b
All my training and GFt was performed on the R22, not out of choice but simpley because it was the Heli that the FTO used that was nearest to my house/business, after that I did the usual conversion course's to the R44 and the B206, a lot of people critisize the R22 but at a cost £ it serves to get you able to fly a helicopter, the downside is, it is so twitchy and subject to do funny things in moments of high stress ( like hover taxiing downwind ) that once you have mastered it it seems like a dream flying something which is larger ie R44 or B206
Regards
PeterR-b
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Schweizer vs Robinson
Overall taking every thing into account witch do you think better?????????
Robinson R22 Beta II vs Schweizer 300CBi: A Battle of Equals?
The Schweizer 300CBi and the Robinson R22 Beta II are the two major production helicopters contending for today's flight training dollar. Ardent fans of each respective helicopter will argue to the death the unique merits that make their choice the best.
Robinson R22 Beta II vs Schweizer 300CBi: A Battle of Equals?
The Schweizer 300CBi and the Robinson R22 Beta II are the two major production helicopters contending for today's flight training dollar. Ardent fans of each respective helicopter will argue to the death the unique merits that make their choice the best.
Last edited by Heliport; 24th Feb 2004 at 21:43.
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Nice article, great pics. If you study the pics, you'll notice a subliminal Robbie dig (HAI/Gateway is, after all, a Schweizer dealer). Note that there are two pretty big/tall lads crammed into the R.22, while the small and slender duo are luxuriating in the relatively roomy 300CBi cockpit. No accident, that.
Which is better? Well note how neutral the article is. "Better for what" is the question - the R.22 goes faster on less fuel, is very mechanically reliable if treated gently , has kick-ass tail-rotor authority, and is pretty cool looking. Once you get the feel for the ship, it is very easy to fly
OTOH, as Frank Robinson has stated numerous times, the R.22 was not initially intended as a trainer. (That's an interesting statement, as his original dealership contracts decreed that Robinson dealers had to provide flight training, in the R.22.) No matter what, the Robbie is fairly fragile - it would be interesting to see the stats on the ratio between full-down autos and airframe damage. Then there's the double-edged sword of the governor, a great device until an unaware pilot pulls power past the MP limit on a takeoff or too-steep approach and the RPM starts to decay. And of course, low-G and the teetering rotor, not always the best thing for a student pilot or low-hour private owner. It's also pretty small inside, and while it has under-seat storage, using it might be hazardous to your health in the event of a hard landing.
The 300CBi (or CB) is infinitely more robust, and forgiving of student ham-handedness. We have CB's with over 4,000 hours on the airframe which have spent every one of those hours in the hands of students. When you watch a Schweizer do full-down after full-down, day after week after year, without suffering at all, you appreciate the fact that the H269 type was absolutely and exclusively designed as a trainer. However, it's noisy, slow, burns about 2.5 GPH more per hour, autorotates like a brick, has a somewhat anemic tail-rotor, and no storage space to speak of. The engines have a relatively short TBO (but no MP limit) and you may experience a few more little annoying kinds of problems from day to day.
For a "personal" helicopter, the kind to fly to an executive job or cabin in the boonies, the R.22 makes a pretty good ride.
For a helicopter to train new students, do full-downs, hover autos, practice engine failures, running landings and all the things you do over and over, every day all week at a flight school, the Schweizer is the hands-down winner. When you run the numbers for flying the aircraft past 3,000 or 4,000 hours, there is almost no difference in the total cost of ownership between a new R.22 BII and a 300CBi, especially when you factor in the costs and down-time of repairing the R.22 (again) after another less-than perfect full-down.
Which is better? Well note how neutral the article is. "Better for what" is the question - the R.22 goes faster on less fuel, is very mechanically reliable if treated gently , has kick-ass tail-rotor authority, and is pretty cool looking. Once you get the feel for the ship, it is very easy to fly
OTOH, as Frank Robinson has stated numerous times, the R.22 was not initially intended as a trainer. (That's an interesting statement, as his original dealership contracts decreed that Robinson dealers had to provide flight training, in the R.22.) No matter what, the Robbie is fairly fragile - it would be interesting to see the stats on the ratio between full-down autos and airframe damage. Then there's the double-edged sword of the governor, a great device until an unaware pilot pulls power past the MP limit on a takeoff or too-steep approach and the RPM starts to decay. And of course, low-G and the teetering rotor, not always the best thing for a student pilot or low-hour private owner. It's also pretty small inside, and while it has under-seat storage, using it might be hazardous to your health in the event of a hard landing.
The 300CBi (or CB) is infinitely more robust, and forgiving of student ham-handedness. We have CB's with over 4,000 hours on the airframe which have spent every one of those hours in the hands of students. When you watch a Schweizer do full-down after full-down, day after week after year, without suffering at all, you appreciate the fact that the H269 type was absolutely and exclusively designed as a trainer. However, it's noisy, slow, burns about 2.5 GPH more per hour, autorotates like a brick, has a somewhat anemic tail-rotor, and no storage space to speak of. The engines have a relatively short TBO (but no MP limit) and you may experience a few more little annoying kinds of problems from day to day.
For a "personal" helicopter, the kind to fly to an executive job or cabin in the boonies, the R.22 makes a pretty good ride.
For a helicopter to train new students, do full-downs, hover autos, practice engine failures, running landings and all the things you do over and over, every day all week at a flight school, the Schweizer is the hands-down winner. When you run the numbers for flying the aircraft past 3,000 or 4,000 hours, there is almost no difference in the total cost of ownership between a new R.22 BII and a 300CBi, especially when you factor in the costs and down-time of repairing the R.22 (again) after another less-than perfect full-down.
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Overall the article was pretty good, but the statement that the robbie and the CBi had the same amount of reserve power is somewhat amusing. Having flown both aircraft depicted, I can say, with confidence, that the CBi is a powerhouse compared to the robbie...
Talking about size of pilots...one of the guys flying the robbie in those pictures is actually the same size if not smaller than the guy in the CBi...maybe the robbie just made him look bigger?
my conclusion:
ROBBIE : ok x-c machine if you are solo...(you can store stuff in the other seat without fearing it will enter your lower back in cause of hard landing..and maybe even bring som fuel)
Also better than CB\CBi for instrument training...it is faster, more comfortable and flies level.
300: Better for day to day training...it can take a beating...Thats really all the 300 is good for, and its all it was ever designed for...I love the little thing
Talking about size of pilots...one of the guys flying the robbie in those pictures is actually the same size if not smaller than the guy in the CBi...maybe the robbie just made him look bigger?
my conclusion:
ROBBIE : ok x-c machine if you are solo...(you can store stuff in the other seat without fearing it will enter your lower back in cause of hard landing..and maybe even bring som fuel)
Also better than CB\CBi for instrument training...it is faster, more comfortable and flies level.
300: Better for day to day training...it can take a beating...Thats really all the 300 is good for, and its all it was ever designed for...I love the little thing
I Still keep a foot in both camps and FlingWing has just about summed it up, the Schweizer is a fantastic trainer, the robbie a cost effective (for a helicopter) personal transport.
My personal bias was toward the R22 as I learned to fly in it, but having now spent a few hundred hours in a CBi the space is a godsend when teaching anyone over 140lb, and even though the MAUW is less than the C model it is still adecent trainer.
There will always be debate over which is better, I'd say neither, they both have their uses.
Cheer
V.
My personal bias was toward the R22 as I learned to fly in it, but having now spent a few hundred hours in a CBi the space is a godsend when teaching anyone over 140lb, and even though the MAUW is less than the C model it is still adecent trainer.
There will always be debate over which is better, I'd say neither, they both have their uses.
Cheer
V.
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Flingwing207
While I can't comment on most of your comparisons cos I don't have any time in Schwiezers I can say that the comments about Robbos having to be treated gently from a mechanical point of view is absolutely incorrect.
If you get see the hammering they get when used for mustering and general station (aka "ranch" to USA'ers) work in the Australian outback you would never think that of a robbie again. Their reliability in rough conditions is why they are the most commonly used helicopter for mustering. If they were breaking down all the time they would get replaced pretty quick with something else because down-time is lost income no matter how cheap the initial aquisistion cost is.
Overall there are no questions at all about their robustness. They aren't fragile in any way.
The rest of the points about room, stability as a training platform etc you may well be right about.
RR
While I can't comment on most of your comparisons cos I don't have any time in Schwiezers I can say that the comments about Robbos having to be treated gently from a mechanical point of view is absolutely incorrect.
If you get see the hammering they get when used for mustering and general station (aka "ranch" to USA'ers) work in the Australian outback you would never think that of a robbie again. Their reliability in rough conditions is why they are the most commonly used helicopter for mustering. If they were breaking down all the time they would get replaced pretty quick with something else because down-time is lost income no matter how cheap the initial aquisistion cost is.
Overall there are no questions at all about their robustness. They aren't fragile in any way.
The rest of the points about room, stability as a training platform etc you may well be right about.
RR