Which is the best helicopter for training?
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R-22 Vs H300
Hi Guys,
I'm converting from a PPL(A) to a CPL(H)....
Since i'm only doing the 70hrs conversion, is it a wise choice to train on both R-22 and H300 and get both endorsements or just train on 1 type and get more proficient at flying that a/c ??
I realise that it would be an advantage to have both endorsements but would i have to complete more hours because of the cross training??
Since i'm looking at ( like most people ) a career starting off probably on R-44s, would R-22 exclusive training be the way to go on a 70hr course?
Many thanks
I'm converting from a PPL(A) to a CPL(H)....
Since i'm only doing the 70hrs conversion, is it a wise choice to train on both R-22 and H300 and get both endorsements or just train on 1 type and get more proficient at flying that a/c ??
I realise that it would be an advantage to have both endorsements but would i have to complete more hours because of the cross training??
Since i'm looking at ( like most people ) a career starting off probably on R-44s, would R-22 exclusive training be the way to go on a 70hr course?
Many thanks
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While I never did fly the R-22, I have a lot more time in the 300's. Do it in the 22, you are going to need every bit of time you can get in the 22 so you have enough time to get a job. When I did it, I did the add on to my airplane certificates, I did it in a BH-47. That was 23 years ago, now its mostly R-22 and 44's. Do your 70 hours in the 22, you need at least 50 hours for Insurance. 300's are pretty easy to fly, you would not have much of a problem if you need to get a check out.
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R22 or Bell 47 for training?
Hey guys! I'm a fixed wing pilot looking to get my Commerical Helicopter Add On. My goal is in 4-5 years to fly Bell OH-58 and 206 Helicopters for a local Sheriff's Dept.
I've been looking at a few schools in the area and I've found one that uses R22s and the other that uses a Bell 47.. I really like the idea of learning in a heavy and "real" helicopter like the 47 and I've been told the controls in a 47 are the same as a 206.
I've also heard that if you learn in an R22 that you can fly anything since they're a bit squirrely to fly.
What are your thoughts?? Which one should I learn in? I'd appreciate any imput you can give me.
I've been looking at a few schools in the area and I've found one that uses R22s and the other that uses a Bell 47.. I really like the idea of learning in a heavy and "real" helicopter like the 47 and I've been told the controls in a 47 are the same as a 206.
I've also heard that if you learn in an R22 that you can fly anything since they're a bit squirrely to fly.
What are your thoughts?? Which one should I learn in? I'd appreciate any imput you can give me.
The Original Whirly
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I learned on R22s. Most of my hours are in R22s. I instruct on R22s...occasioinally, at least. 
I had one hour in a Bell 47, and B47 drivers now have my eternal respect. Jeez, it was hard! Under-powered, no governor, ineffective correlator, no low RRPM warning light. How do you hover with half an eye on the instruments all the time? Oh, I see, you don't; you learn to listen for the slightest change in RPM...right, I'm a helicopter pilot; I'm supposed to be able to do that aren't I?
OTOH, if you put a B47 pilot in an R22 for the first time, he'd probably think it was skittish and difficult to control. I suppose it is, till you're used to it. But then, every new type is difficult at first. I had trouble the first time I flew a B206; felt like I was supposed to do everything in slow motion.
So, I'm not an expert, and some of the real experts on here may answer you. But my feeling is that it doesn't matter that much; you'll learn different things from different helicopters, and they're all useful in the long term...the real longterm, lifelong learning experience that is helicopter flying.
I had one hour in a Bell 47, and B47 drivers now have my eternal respect. Jeez, it was hard! Under-powered, no governor, ineffective correlator, no low RRPM warning light. How do you hover with half an eye on the instruments all the time? Oh, I see, you don't; you learn to listen for the slightest change in RPM...right, I'm a helicopter pilot; I'm supposed to be able to do that aren't I?
OTOH, if you put a B47 pilot in an R22 for the first time, he'd probably think it was skittish and difficult to control. I suppose it is, till you're used to it. But then, every new type is difficult at first. I had trouble the first time I flew a B206; felt like I was supposed to do everything in slow motion.
So, I'm not an expert, and some of the real experts on here may answer you. But my feeling is that it doesn't matter that much; you'll learn different things from different helicopters, and they're all useful in the long term...the real longterm, lifelong learning experience that is helicopter flying.
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It depends what you want to do.
The Bell 47 is a whole lot better trainer than the R22, no contest, and you'll be a better pilot at the end of your training.
The downside is most schools use R22 so it's harder to get a FI job if you've trained on a B47.
If you don't need to build hours instructing, go for the Bell 47.
The Bell 47 is a whole lot better trainer than the R22, no contest, and you'll be a better pilot at the end of your training.
The downside is most schools use R22 so it's harder to get a FI job if you've trained on a B47.
If you don't need to build hours instructing, go for the Bell 47.
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I learned to fly in a H300 initially then had to switch to R22 about 100 hours down the track. I thought I could fly then but discovered the R22 thought otherwise...then when I was a little more qualified with a CPL eh eh, got a job flying about 200 hours in low level situations then landed another job on B47. I then realized I did not how to fly helicopters at all. B47 will definitely sort out wannabes. I did about 800 hours on B47 and derivatives and would highly recommend it. My transition to a B206 was a pure breeze with autos, etc etc having almost the same feel and outcome.
Robinsons helos have their place with the R44 an excellent platform to work and train on. transition to a B206 is quite easy.
Good luck
WLM
Robinsons helos have their place with the R44 an excellent platform to work and train on. transition to a B206 is quite easy.
Good luck
WLM
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In my experience as an instructor, which was about 15 years ago now
I would have to say, go for the B47.
OK I am biased, as it was in the Bell 47 I learned the art of "balancing on a beach ball in a choppy sea" (which is a good analogy for learning to hover and fly a helicopter.)
I have logged a few hours in the R22 also, but not instructing.
If you are planning on instructing, where believe me, every day without fail, it will seem like the guy next to you has one aim left in life and that is to kill himself and you and smash up the helicopter
Then in my opinion it is definately the way to go.
For instance the Bell has far more inertia in the blades, which if nothing else allows you to instruct verbally. In other words you can talk the student through the manoever and if he/she starts to have a problem, rather than having to take control you can talk them through it and back on track as it were. Therefore the student learns more.
In a nut shell the R22 is too sensitive and has too much correlation for my liking, get back to basics, fly a 47, master that and the rest is gravy.
I would have to say, go for the B47. OK I am biased, as it was in the Bell 47 I learned the art of "balancing on a beach ball in a choppy sea" (which is a good analogy for learning to hover and fly a helicopter.)
I have logged a few hours in the R22 also, but not instructing.
If you are planning on instructing, where believe me, every day without fail, it will seem like the guy next to you has one aim left in life and that is to kill himself and you and smash up the helicopter
Then in my opinion it is definately the way to go. For instance the Bell has far more inertia in the blades, which if nothing else allows you to instruct verbally. In other words you can talk the student through the manoever and if he/she starts to have a problem, rather than having to take control you can talk them through it and back on track as it were. Therefore the student learns more.
In a nut shell the R22 is too sensitive and has too much correlation for my liking, get back to basics, fly a 47, master that and the rest is gravy.
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Being qualified to instruct on both I would have to say the Bell 47 is the better training helicopter. If you can master the manual throttle its a peach to fly. The R22 is a sod to do a full engine off in, whereas the Bell 47 is outstanding, being a high-inertia system. Visibility from the Bell is also superior. Yup.....give me the "whirlygig" anytime.
Hovering AND talking
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give me the "whirlygig" anytime
Although I have never flown a Bell47 and have half an hour in an R22 (my time being S300 and B206), if cost is not a factor, I'd go for the B47. Even if cost were a factor, I'd probably still go for a B47!
Given your ambition, I would suggest that the Bell is the better aircraft for you to train on. If you had ambition to be an instructor and R22s are the most available training machine, then I would suggest it may be better to learn on one of those.
Cheers
Whirlygig
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Thanks guys! I think I'll go with the Bell 47
The cost is pretty competitive , $210 an hour Dual at Rancho Rotors in Northern California.
I've added a pic of their B47D-1.
Hope you'll post some of your own when you start flying.
Have fun.
Heliport
The cost is pretty competitive , $210 an hour Dual at Rancho Rotors in Northern California.
I've added a pic of their B47D-1.
Hope you'll post some of your own when you start flying.
Have fun.
Heliport
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A sweet and rewarding helicopter that gives you the feeling that you are a helicopter pilot. OK it is more of a challenge initially but once you have grasped the techniques it's beautiful to fly, robust and forgiving. I've over 4000 hours on it and compared to others , it is the best. Which one is it? The Bell 47 of course. Super machine for training.
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The difference between B47's and R22's for training is that they teach different skills, particularly in the hover. The R22 shows immediately that you have fed in an incorrect cyclic or collective input by its instant response. Because of its stab bar and greater inertia, the B47 reacts much more slowly. The problem in reality is that you have to exercise more anticipation which takes just as long to learn. The higher cruise speed of the Robinson is more representative of other types for navigation purposes. Engine off landings - no contest - The B47 is a quantum measure easier but who does many of them in training.
My experience of both types in Commercial Training (to my surprise) was that students were ready to go solo in the same or less time in R22's as in the B47, until an artificial minimum number of hours to solo was introduced
My experience of both types in Commercial Training (to my surprise) was that students were ready to go solo in the same or less time in R22's as in the B47, until an artificial minimum number of hours to solo was introduced
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Bell47's
I'm very lucky, I'm teaching on the Bell47, and it's a smashing aircraft for training. I work for a flying school which currently has 4 of them. I have absolutly no time on an R22, but have new students start who have commented on how they prefer the 47.
Good luck with your training
Darren
Good luck with your training
Darren
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The Bell 47 is for sure the way to go. I initially trained and got my private in the Bell 47, then moved on to the R22 for most of my commercial and instrument flight hours and then got my commercial and CFI in the S300. The Bell 47 is by far the best aircraft to learn in. It teaches you to have smooth precise, control of the aircraft. You learn to feel the aircraft and divide your attention. The R22 in my humble opinion is not the right aircraft to learn in, the governor and the very precise correlator spoils you, leading to not a very well developed feel for actually what the aircraft is doing engine wise.
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This question pops up so often that I sometimes wonder if it's not a troll every time. Because you see, the answer to this timeless, slightly-irritating question of which aircraft is better to train in is.....
It does not matter.
(R-22 purists gasp and clutch their hearts. Dogmatic 47 lovers swoon on the verge of fainting.)
It is interesting to hear people's prejudices come out. Rzender, you've been told that the controls in a 47 are the same as in a 206, which is true. There is a cyclic, a collective and two pedals. Same as an R-22. WHAT?!?! Yes, imagine that, the controls of an R-22 are the same as a 206. Does a 47 (especially a D-1) fly like a 206? Nope. No way in hell.
There are those who claim that mastering the sloppy, uncorrelated throttle of the 47 will make you a "better pilot" or some such nonsense. And nonsense it is. It is a useless skill that will take up a lot of flight time (at $210/hour) to learn. Which is fine if you plan on making a career flying 47's, but totally, absolutely irrelevant if you end up flying turbines. The last piston-popper I flew was on my Commercial checkride a long, long, long time ago. If I never fly another 47 again that will be okay.
People denigrate the R-22 as a training machine, but it quite obviously makes a fine one. It will be interesting to see whether the reborn 47 will make a dent in the R-22's domination of the training market as people will once again have a real choice. (Oops! Probably not supposed to let that cat out of the bag just yet!) Especially since we KNOW that Frankie wants to phase out the R-22 and make the '44 the primary trainer. Hmm, the 540-equipped R-44 versus the 47 with a 435? Should be interesting. Of course, the Robinsons are faster, making those required cross-country flights easier.
The 47 has a lot of romantic appeal that influences people's perceptions and opinions. 47-lovers simply want you to fly one for the sake of...I don't know...nostalgia, maybe. "A real helicopter!" it is called, which is silly. The R-22 is as real a helicopter as any other. On the other hand, those who say "If you can fly an R-22 you can fly anything" are equally misguided.
You can learn to drive in a Yugo and be a fine Cadillac driver in no time at all. You can learn to fly airplanes in a Piper J-3 Cub or a C-120 or even a Kolb Mark III homebuilt and still be a finest airplane pilot that was ever rated. As long as you can satisfy the Practical Test Standards, who cares? Right, it does not matter which tool you use to learn the skill. If you are a craftsman, it will show.
Hey, you really want to learn how to fly? Go find a flight school that still uses the Hiller 12C or E. Now there was a manly helicopter!
It does not matter.
(R-22 purists gasp and clutch their hearts. Dogmatic 47 lovers swoon on the verge of fainting.)
It is interesting to hear people's prejudices come out. Rzender, you've been told that the controls in a 47 are the same as in a 206, which is true. There is a cyclic, a collective and two pedals. Same as an R-22. WHAT?!?! Yes, imagine that, the controls of an R-22 are the same as a 206. Does a 47 (especially a D-1) fly like a 206? Nope. No way in hell.
There are those who claim that mastering the sloppy, uncorrelated throttle of the 47 will make you a "better pilot" or some such nonsense. And nonsense it is. It is a useless skill that will take up a lot of flight time (at $210/hour) to learn. Which is fine if you plan on making a career flying 47's, but totally, absolutely irrelevant if you end up flying turbines. The last piston-popper I flew was on my Commercial checkride a long, long, long time ago. If I never fly another 47 again that will be okay.
People denigrate the R-22 as a training machine, but it quite obviously makes a fine one. It will be interesting to see whether the reborn 47 will make a dent in the R-22's domination of the training market as people will once again have a real choice. (Oops! Probably not supposed to let that cat out of the bag just yet!) Especially since we KNOW that Frankie wants to phase out the R-22 and make the '44 the primary trainer. Hmm, the 540-equipped R-44 versus the 47 with a 435? Should be interesting. Of course, the Robinsons are faster, making those required cross-country flights easier.
The 47 has a lot of romantic appeal that influences people's perceptions and opinions. 47-lovers simply want you to fly one for the sake of...I don't know...nostalgia, maybe. "A real helicopter!" it is called, which is silly. The R-22 is as real a helicopter as any other. On the other hand, those who say "If you can fly an R-22 you can fly anything" are equally misguided.
You can learn to drive in a Yugo and be a fine Cadillac driver in no time at all. You can learn to fly airplanes in a Piper J-3 Cub or a C-120 or even a Kolb Mark III homebuilt and still be a finest airplane pilot that was ever rated. As long as you can satisfy the Practical Test Standards, who cares? Right, it does not matter which tool you use to learn the skill. If you are a craftsman, it will show.
Hey, you really want to learn how to fly? Go find a flight school that still uses the Hiller 12C or E. Now there was a manly helicopter!
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The opportunity to fly the Bell 47 should never be cast aside. In spite of its longevity we may not get the chance forever.
Having started on the Hiller 12B and 12C then moved onto the Bell 47 with Alan Bristow's flying circus I count myself fortunate
The many other types after that, have never eclipsed the Bell and the Hiller time for sheer thrill - save the Westland Whirlwind.
Now we're talking!
The Robinsons are fine machines and have done so much to get people into helicopters and if I get the chance one day I would like to give 'em a try. As a lazy S76 driver I would probably make a hash of it. This game is a great leveller!
U.G
Having started on the Hiller 12B and 12C then moved onto the Bell 47 with Alan Bristow's flying circus I count myself fortunate
The many other types after that, have never eclipsed the Bell and the Hiller time for sheer thrill - save the Westland Whirlwind.
Now we're talking!
The Robinsons are fine machines and have done so much to get people into helicopters and if I get the chance one day I would like to give 'em a try. As a lazy S76 driver I would probably make a hash of it. This game is a great leveller!
U.G