AH-64 Apache
Gatvol
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: KLAS/TIST/FAJS/KFAI
Posts: 4,195
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: apache pilots required
The Brits did not invent this concept. The American Army by far loses more Pilots due to their moronic policies. I continue to meet some fine young folks who have gotten out due to being a rated pilot and flying a desk (and continual deployment outside the U.S.). Its been going on for years, but the "Generals" never seem to learn and besides they are all comfortable.
Its called "Busy Work" for Junior Officers as the Army cannot give them "blade time" which is budgeted for active combat units. So they train them, piss them off and lose them...........
Back after Vietnam went down the toilet, I remember we were restricted to 80 hours a year, not much for "building time"
Its called "Busy Work" for Junior Officers as the Army cannot give them "blade time" which is budgeted for active combat units. So they train them, piss them off and lose them...........
Back after Vietnam went down the toilet, I remember we were restricted to 80 hours a year, not much for "building time"
Re: apache pilots required
Bert,
Beyond agreeing completely with you...one must also recall the active duty Army is merely a holding pen for cadre to form vast numbers of units should the Balloon go up for real. That being said...can you imagine some of the Dud's being given real tasks to complete?
At least we have Guard and Reserve units that are out doing the job instead of playing Sunny Glade Day camp like it used to be. They are actually using the equipment instead of merely maintaining it.
My old Guard unit flies Apaches and is part of the active duty 82nd Airborne Division....maybe the Brits need to consider such a notion....incorporate TA units into their force structure. That way...the pilots learn to fly the machine on Active Duty...then when they leave for civvie life they can join the TA unit and continue flying the machine....or do they have such a system in place now?
Beyond agreeing completely with you...one must also recall the active duty Army is merely a holding pen for cadre to form vast numbers of units should the Balloon go up for real. That being said...can you imagine some of the Dud's being given real tasks to complete?
At least we have Guard and Reserve units that are out doing the job instead of playing Sunny Glade Day camp like it used to be. They are actually using the equipment instead of merely maintaining it.
My old Guard unit flies Apaches and is part of the active duty 82nd Airborne Division....maybe the Brits need to consider such a notion....incorporate TA units into their force structure. That way...the pilots learn to fly the machine on Active Duty...then when they leave for civvie life they can join the TA unit and continue flying the machine....or do they have such a system in place now?
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Desert mainly, occasionally arctic and rarely jungle
Posts: 134
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: 3 more Apache pilots resign
Front Seater:
Late start Mondays and early finish Fridays like the other two services; get with the plot my dear chap! Light Blue Sqn, currently supporting 3 different ops on top of Ex Tropical Storm, Clockwork, Jebel Sahara, Mountain Lion, Eagles Blah and Herricks Whatsit. Old airframes in desperate need of replacement (read extension to 2024 if the latest rumours are to believed) not withstanding the IDT, IRT, CCS, FPC, WHT etc. Oh and don't forget the ISS, JOCC, JEWC, JAEWC, CEWIC, QHTI. Oops almost forgot the Airtests and Groundruns.
We're all in the same situation......
SO MAN UP WET PANTS!
Late start Mondays and early finish Fridays like the other two services; get with the plot my dear chap! Light Blue Sqn, currently supporting 3 different ops on top of Ex Tropical Storm, Clockwork, Jebel Sahara, Mountain Lion, Eagles Blah and Herricks Whatsit. Old airframes in desperate need of replacement (read extension to 2024 if the latest rumours are to believed) not withstanding the IDT, IRT, CCS, FPC, WHT etc. Oh and don't forget the ISS, JOCC, JEWC, JAEWC, CEWIC, QHTI. Oops almost forgot the Airtests and Groundruns.
We're all in the same situation......
SO MAN UP WET PANTS!
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: North
Posts: 124
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: apache pilots required
I think the main problem is simply that those who were 'converted' to the Apache joined the service to fly and not to ponce about in a simmulator with few 'real' flying hours. A newer breed who expect nothing other than this will last longer but having said that the AAC internal recruitment and manpower maintenance has not been conducive to retention for over 10 years - irrespective of the governments half assed policies.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 64
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: 3 more Apache pilots resign
Crabincab,
If your stupid enough to put up with it then more the fool you, I'm not on AH and don't suffer the way these chaps do, but just because you also suffer doesn't make it right either. Its not as if the wages service pilots get is remotely reflective of the monies our cushy airline friends get.
so I'm sure many of the AH drivers will continue in the sterling manner that they have already in delivering AH capability; on time, under budget and to a very high standard. But they have a point, flying GH with the AH is very, very different to fighting AH competently!
PP Out...
If your stupid enough to put up with it then more the fool you, I'm not on AH and don't suffer the way these chaps do, but just because you also suffer doesn't make it right either. Its not as if the wages service pilots get is remotely reflective of the monies our cushy airline friends get.
so I'm sure many of the AH drivers will continue in the sterling manner that they have already in delivering AH capability; on time, under budget and to a very high standard. But they have a point, flying GH with the AH is very, very different to fighting AH competently!
PP Out...
Re: apache pilots required
incorporate TA units into their force structure. That way...the pilots learn to fly the machine on Active Duty
G
Gatvol
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: KLAS/TIST/FAJS/KFAI
Posts: 4,195
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Apache pilots required
My old Guard unit flies Apaches and is part of the active duty 82nd Airborne Division....maybe the Brits need to consider such a notion
Therin lies another problem. The Active units are short handed so the Reserves are filling in the gap more than they really want too. As the sign in the window of a Hum V in Iraq as seen in the news said. "One weekend a month My Ass"
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 345
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Apache pilots required
The problems with the program are many and complex and no one single issue could be cured without knock on effects in other areas.
It was decided in the early stages that the training would be in the UK rather than the US. One wonders whether this was done with a view to perhaps providing training to other Apache users in Europe and the Middle East. This was doomed to fail as soon as the UK model was 'Anglicised' with so much deviation from the US model. As a result, the training is very expensive i.e in the order of 1 million pounds in UK rather than circa $350,000 in the US for the type conversion alone.
The type conversion takes 6 months with a further 6 months for operational role training, excellent training but somewhat longer than the 15 week US course. Most of this is driven by the narrow focus of resources of only one simulator in the flight school and only a dozen or so aircraft for the training pipeline training about 20-24 aircrew every six months.
A significant engineering and logistics problem are the new 'just in time' spares provisions. The bean counters dont understand that the 2-3 days or more likely 2-3 weeks to provide a spare part means a loss of some 5 productive flight hours per day of aircrew training.
Yes, the taxpayer wants to see something for his/her money and I can assure you that those that have qualified on the machine so want to fly it and deliver the capability. That delivery however; is hampered by the frustration above and many more, not least the career structure and lack of training munitions.
It just does not seem possible to deliver the numbers required through the bottleneck of the training pipeline in order to fully man the frontline as quickly as it is required. Why you may ask do we not invest and send a couple of courses to the US and give them a differences course on return, costing significantly less than a pure UK training course?
Alas, money is everything these days and you only get what you pay for. I would still ask though, is it not cheaper to train in the US followed by a small conversion course costing maybe 40% of what the current conversion to type does?
HEDP
It was decided in the early stages that the training would be in the UK rather than the US. One wonders whether this was done with a view to perhaps providing training to other Apache users in Europe and the Middle East. This was doomed to fail as soon as the UK model was 'Anglicised' with so much deviation from the US model. As a result, the training is very expensive i.e in the order of 1 million pounds in UK rather than circa $350,000 in the US for the type conversion alone.
The type conversion takes 6 months with a further 6 months for operational role training, excellent training but somewhat longer than the 15 week US course. Most of this is driven by the narrow focus of resources of only one simulator in the flight school and only a dozen or so aircraft for the training pipeline training about 20-24 aircrew every six months.
A significant engineering and logistics problem are the new 'just in time' spares provisions. The bean counters dont understand that the 2-3 days or more likely 2-3 weeks to provide a spare part means a loss of some 5 productive flight hours per day of aircrew training.
Yes, the taxpayer wants to see something for his/her money and I can assure you that those that have qualified on the machine so want to fly it and deliver the capability. That delivery however; is hampered by the frustration above and many more, not least the career structure and lack of training munitions.
It just does not seem possible to deliver the numbers required through the bottleneck of the training pipeline in order to fully man the frontline as quickly as it is required. Why you may ask do we not invest and send a couple of courses to the US and give them a differences course on return, costing significantly less than a pure UK training course?
Alas, money is everything these days and you only get what you pay for. I would still ask though, is it not cheaper to train in the US followed by a small conversion course costing maybe 40% of what the current conversion to type does?
HEDP
Last edited by HEDP; 15th Jan 2006 at 20:40.
Re: Apache pilots required
I heard the old saying was...."The British Navy did not amount to much until they shot a few Admirals."
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Newcastle
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: 3 more Apache pilots resign
Don't visit an LCC pilot within the first few days of his leave, as he will be ill in bed, plagued by illness that his body has fought off until rest is available.
It is not all roses in the commercial world.Better paid mind.
It is not all roses in the commercial world.Better paid mind.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: N20,W99
Age: 53
Posts: 1,119
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Apache pilots required?
Apache Pilots Required?
I really don't know about their aeronautical skills??
Plus they look like they would want to go Union right away.
I really don't know about their aeronautical skills??
Plus they look like they would want to go Union right away.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: USA
Posts: 288
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Apache pilots required?
I can't speak for the rest, but the fellow in the bottom row, second from the left, was my roommate in flight school. He was a pretty good stick back then. Uncanny sense of direction. Never was captured during the escape and evasion exercise. The ladies loved him for his big tomahawk Last I heard he was flying in the North Sea.
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 93
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ref the RAF exchange at 3 Regt. For a few years the DRQHI was RAF when the Regt was at Soest. After that I recall a crab Flt Comd (rank of Sqn Ldr) at 653 Sqn.
To train a guy or girl for 12-14 mth, to only get 18 mth return of service before they return to the RAF then have nothing further to do with Attack Aviation doesn't make sense. At least the Army officers who move on after the same investment end up at desks that revolve around 16 AA Bde or DAAvn and pass on hard earned knowledge onto the staff officers that sit a little higher.
To train a guy or girl for 12-14 mth, to only get 18 mth return of service before they return to the RAF then have nothing further to do with Attack Aviation doesn't make sense. At least the Army officers who move on after the same investment end up at desks that revolve around 16 AA Bde or DAAvn and pass on hard earned knowledge onto the staff officers that sit a little higher.
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Southern UK
Age: 63
Posts: 282
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rich
You made me spill my coffee!
Looks like your room mate Bull Dog doesn't want to show his tomahawk in case he upsets Little Thunder seated next to him (who seems quite happy to display his BTW)
Judging by the happy expressions this phot was taken in the days before Preparation H was widely available.
W
You made me spill my coffee!
Looks like your room mate Bull Dog doesn't want to show his tomahawk in case he upsets Little Thunder seated next to him (who seems quite happy to display his BTW)
Judging by the happy expressions this phot was taken in the days before Preparation H was widely available.
W
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: North Yorkshire
Posts: 119
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Part-timers
Out of curiosity, I've just 'googled' this from the Boeing website:
U.S. Army National Guard and Reserve
Nine U.S. Army National Guard (ARNG) and two U.S. Army Reserve (USAR) components are now flying the AH-64 Apache. The ARNG attack battalion in Arizona flies the more advanced AH-64D Apache Longbow; all other units in the Reserve Component fly the AH-64A Apache.
States with ARNG units flying Apaches include Arizona , Idaho , Mississippi , Missouri , North Carolina , Pennsylvania , South Carolina , Tennessee , Texas , and Utah . The USAR units flying Apaches are located in Kentucky and Texas . Texas is the only state with both ARNG and USAR Apache battalions.
ARNG units have been fully engaged in operations around the world including Operation Enduring Freedom, Bosnia and Kosovo.
Are the pilots all ex-Regular and just the F/T component of the NG / Reserve ?
How many hours does a reservist in North Carolina have to fly each month to remain current on the AH-64 ?
U.S. Army National Guard and Reserve
Nine U.S. Army National Guard (ARNG) and two U.S. Army Reserve (USAR) components are now flying the AH-64 Apache. The ARNG attack battalion in Arizona flies the more advanced AH-64D Apache Longbow; all other units in the Reserve Component fly the AH-64A Apache.
States with ARNG units flying Apaches include Arizona , Idaho , Mississippi , Missouri , North Carolina , Pennsylvania , South Carolina , Tennessee , Texas , and Utah . The USAR units flying Apaches are located in Kentucky and Texas . Texas is the only state with both ARNG and USAR Apache battalions.
ARNG units have been fully engaged in operations around the world including Operation Enduring Freedom, Bosnia and Kosovo.
Are the pilots all ex-Regular and just the F/T component of the NG / Reserve ?
How many hours does a reservist in North Carolina have to fly each month to remain current on the AH-64 ?
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 64
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OVC,
You are correct with the statement that at least the AAC officer remains in an AH desk job or appointment, not sure that I support the view that they pass on quality information; more their own opinion which is often what the hierarchy want to hear rather than what is actually happening or is required/needed.
The biggest problems occur when an officer makes a decision that is only taken in order to get him/her through their 2 year posting; and because they are unlikely to return to front line aviation they will never be made accountable for the desperate situation that is left behind. Things like ...HALS,Spares,Helmets,Breakout-Tools, Navbags,Ammo,MPS and not to forget the manning crisis and the many more greatly managed projects that remain inadequate or unavailable.
Oh and everything Else can go on the risk register...that must be like yellow pages by now!
I could be wrong though?
PP.
You are correct with the statement that at least the AAC officer remains in an AH desk job or appointment, not sure that I support the view that they pass on quality information; more their own opinion which is often what the hierarchy want to hear rather than what is actually happening or is required/needed.
The biggest problems occur when an officer makes a decision that is only taken in order to get him/her through their 2 year posting; and because they are unlikely to return to front line aviation they will never be made accountable for the desperate situation that is left behind. Things like ...HALS,Spares,Helmets,Breakout-Tools, Navbags,Ammo,MPS and not to forget the manning crisis and the many more greatly managed projects that remain inadequate or unavailable.
Oh and everything Else can go on the risk register...that must be like yellow pages by now!
I could be wrong though?
PP.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Wattashame
Posts: 136
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Frog Prince.
The Army National Guard units are not all ex-regular soldiers.
I was lucky enough to do an Apache course at Fort Rucker, where the majority of aviators who were on A model Apache were from Guard units, mostly converting from Cobra, a lot of them were young men off the street, who joined the local Guard unit insteed of joining the regular army. They are CW1 and above, they have an obligation to return a set number of years and a set number of days on duty. One fella who was on the cse in ahead of me from New Jersey was a UH1 pilot, and flew on the 100 aircraft lift for Hamburger Hill (I'm not talking the film!) another fella Charlie (great guy on the p155) from the same unit was also a Vietnam war veteran.
I don't know how many hours they fly, I didn't keep in touch with the people I was with at Rucker, I'll see if I can dig out an email address and ask for you.
The Army National Guard units are not all ex-regular soldiers.
I was lucky enough to do an Apache course at Fort Rucker, where the majority of aviators who were on A model Apache were from Guard units, mostly converting from Cobra, a lot of them were young men off the street, who joined the local Guard unit insteed of joining the regular army. They are CW1 and above, they have an obligation to return a set number of years and a set number of days on duty. One fella who was on the cse in ahead of me from New Jersey was a UH1 pilot, and flew on the 100 aircraft lift for Hamburger Hill (I'm not talking the film!) another fella Charlie (great guy on the p155) from the same unit was also a Vietnam war veteran.
I don't know how many hours they fly, I didn't keep in touch with the people I was with at Rucker, I'll see if I can dig out an email address and ask for you.