AH-64 Apache
Re: 3 more Apache pilots resign
CSRO,
Your apparant lack of knowledge is at odds with the intimate depth of knowledge you appear to have of individuals career plans. If you feel that you can help, how about doing it? You should not have to be asked.
Your apparant lack of knowledge is at odds with the intimate depth of knowledge you appear to have of individuals career plans. If you feel that you can help, how about doing it? You should not have to be asked.
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Re: 3 more Apache pilots resign
Crab Beefer,
The RAF cannot yet fill the Lynx exchange QHI slot at SAAvn (after gapping it for 3 months already and looking at another 3 months until it is filled), let alone front up with a suitable candidate for AH. Rumour has it that the proposed individual is ex-RN, recently transferred to the RAF and on his first posting. Lots of confidence in the quality then......
BS
The RAF cannot yet fill the Lynx exchange QHI slot at SAAvn (after gapping it for 3 months already and looking at another 3 months until it is filled), let alone front up with a suitable candidate for AH. Rumour has it that the proposed individual is ex-RN, recently transferred to the RAF and on his first posting. Lots of confidence in the quality then......
BS
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Re: 3 more Apache pilots resign
Cant let this one disappear, its not even started to hit any raw nerves yet!
I must ask this question, just why are AH pilots so down in the mouth about life in an AH sqn??
Honesty must be the best policy if anything is to change.
I must ask this question, just why are AH pilots so down in the mouth about life in an AH sqn??
Honesty must be the best policy if anything is to change.
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Re: 3 more Apache pilots resign
Peoplespoet
You ought to read what folks who actually fly the Apache say rather than fishing for manure. AH pilots are not down in the mouth.
Check out AHQHI's posts on this thread - 'he wouldn't want to go to war wearing anything else' he goes on to say, I paraphrase, it needs dedicated people who really want to do this and it is challenging. He's even offering visits to an AH Sqn for likely applicants to check it out before they apply. I assume you do not fall into this category since you seem to know little about the Apache or the men and women who fly it.
LB
You ought to read what folks who actually fly the Apache say rather than fishing for manure. AH pilots are not down in the mouth.
Check out AHQHI's posts on this thread - 'he wouldn't want to go to war wearing anything else' he goes on to say, I paraphrase, it needs dedicated people who really want to do this and it is challenging. He's even offering visits to an AH Sqn for likely applicants to check it out before they apply. I assume you do not fall into this category since you seem to know little about the Apache or the men and women who fly it.
LB
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Re: 3 more Apache pilots resign
LB,
I'm sure that you are correct but I have spoken with many AH crews recently and to a man they are hacked off.
Fed up of poor serviceability, being placed on and off the deployment wagon and AH funding being cut left right and Chelsea. The general feeling appears to be that the AH is a great ac but the MOD cant afford to operate it effectively. It costs to much for ac MODs and training ammunition (which has apparently ran out) and the men are left to provide the full capability on a shoe string which is damaging to health and reputation.
I have no Axe to grind, just cant understand how the crews that fly the beast have become so demoralized that they should consider leaving after so much has been invested in them.
Surely everything possible should be available and considered to keep them on AH and in the forces i.e. more money if thats what it takes, after all the NAO state that it costs the tax payer nearly 1 million pound to fully train each CR AH pilot so 100K extra to retain their services for 5 years is a wise investment, and it worked for the harrier mates.
If any of the above has truth in it 'especially the ammo thing' then the MOD must have a duty of care to front up the dosh ASAP (UOR) especially if the media hype of a deployment next year is correct. The men need to train if they are expected to deliver!
Responses welcome
PP.
DEFENCE
Apache Helicopters
Mr. Paterson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how much it costs to train a pilot to fly Apache helicopters; and how long the training takes. [153977]
Mr. Ingram: The basic Conversion to Type course for qualified Army pilots on the Apache helicopter at the School of Army Aviation, Middle Wallop, is 26 weeks. A current estimate of cost for this course for one pilot (the course has yet to complete) is £600,000. Once qualified, pilots then progress to a Conversion to Role course which will take place at Dishforth and Wattisham, and is run by the Air Manoeuvre Training Advisory Team (AMTAT). This course is of 26 weeks duration and an estimate of cost is £550,000.
I'm sure that you are correct but I have spoken with many AH crews recently and to a man they are hacked off.
Fed up of poor serviceability, being placed on and off the deployment wagon and AH funding being cut left right and Chelsea. The general feeling appears to be that the AH is a great ac but the MOD cant afford to operate it effectively. It costs to much for ac MODs and training ammunition (which has apparently ran out) and the men are left to provide the full capability on a shoe string which is damaging to health and reputation.
I have no Axe to grind, just cant understand how the crews that fly the beast have become so demoralized that they should consider leaving after so much has been invested in them.
Surely everything possible should be available and considered to keep them on AH and in the forces i.e. more money if thats what it takes, after all the NAO state that it costs the tax payer nearly 1 million pound to fully train each CR AH pilot so 100K extra to retain their services for 5 years is a wise investment, and it worked for the harrier mates.
If any of the above has truth in it 'especially the ammo thing' then the MOD must have a duty of care to front up the dosh ASAP (UOR) especially if the media hype of a deployment next year is correct. The men need to train if they are expected to deliver!
Responses welcome
PP.
DEFENCE
Apache Helicopters
Mr. Paterson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how much it costs to train a pilot to fly Apache helicopters; and how long the training takes. [153977]
Mr. Ingram: The basic Conversion to Type course for qualified Army pilots on the Apache helicopter at the School of Army Aviation, Middle Wallop, is 26 weeks. A current estimate of cost for this course for one pilot (the course has yet to complete) is £600,000. Once qualified, pilots then progress to a Conversion to Role course which will take place at Dishforth and Wattisham, and is run by the Air Manoeuvre Training Advisory Team (AMTAT). This course is of 26 weeks duration and an estimate of cost is £550,000.
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Re: 3 more Apache pilots resign
26 week Apache CTT, a bit like a student trimming out a Chipmunt T10!
I love the fact that so many people on here hide behind names that mean nothing and wax lyrical about mates who are Apache pilots and fed-up!
I too have got mates who are Apache pilots, not one of them are fed-up of flying Apache or being on the program. I would say that Apache pilots are no more or less fed-up than the Lynx drivers in the Regt.
I've said on here previously and stated there are issues, sure there are, but when you strap in they ebb away. The ammunition situation isn't ideal, indeed I had a chat with DCJHC Brig NC and it was top of his list of things to correct, but you can't pop down to Halfords and buy a batch of CRV7 off the shelf. The spares issue is complex, and to be honest is an issue, however it is often over-stated, what isn't often mentioned is how low the manning levels are at the Sqn CSS, now, if you want to find a group who are fed-up, speak to your friendly Apache REME! Never mentioned is how long it takes 7 Bat to turn round 300's cos fixing aircraft is 5th on a list of 7 tasks for the Bn. Or is it cos there are no spares?
Guys, I've had a heavy week on OPTAG Trg down at Colly, lets stop the bitchin and we'll p155 this.
Peoplespoet, it's been a while since you were last on here, I know I know who you are, but give us a clue mate.
I love the fact that so many people on here hide behind names that mean nothing and wax lyrical about mates who are Apache pilots and fed-up!
I too have got mates who are Apache pilots, not one of them are fed-up of flying Apache or being on the program. I would say that Apache pilots are no more or less fed-up than the Lynx drivers in the Regt.
I've said on here previously and stated there are issues, sure there are, but when you strap in they ebb away. The ammunition situation isn't ideal, indeed I had a chat with DCJHC Brig NC and it was top of his list of things to correct, but you can't pop down to Halfords and buy a batch of CRV7 off the shelf. The spares issue is complex, and to be honest is an issue, however it is often over-stated, what isn't often mentioned is how low the manning levels are at the Sqn CSS, now, if you want to find a group who are fed-up, speak to your friendly Apache REME! Never mentioned is how long it takes 7 Bat to turn round 300's cos fixing aircraft is 5th on a list of 7 tasks for the Bn. Or is it cos there are no spares?
Guys, I've had a heavy week on OPTAG Trg down at Colly, lets stop the bitchin and we'll p155 this.
Peoplespoet, it's been a while since you were last on here, I know I know who you are, but give us a clue mate.
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Re: 3 more Apache pilots resign
Crikey, AHQHI656, youre dull. It appears the only people who bring this subject up is 'you lot'.
Most choose to be anonymous. It appears you use your user name to gain ACR points, just a guess.
Bet you dont say anything bad or against the Corps with that do you?
I love the fact that so many people on here hide behind names that mean nothing
Bet you dont say anything bad or against the Corps with that do you?
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Re: 3 more Apache pilots resign
WG13 Dummy, you’ve got the gall to call me dull, I’ve just read your public profile, who’s dull?
You can wink all you like but suggesting I’m on here to gain CR points couldn’t be further from the truth, if you knew me then you’d know better. You seem to have confused my loyalty to the Apache (which I love dearly) for trying to gain CR points.
You claim that the only people bringing up this subject [Apache] is us lot, again wide of the mark, check out who started this thread, not an Apache pilot!
As for not saying anything bad against the Corps, when it’s warranted it gets it, though I’ve not said anything good about it either. I will not sit idly by while rubish is stated about the Apache or my fellow Apache pilots, no more than when I was flying Lynx.
We are where we are on this program due to hard work and dedication of a hand-full of fine aviators, who overcame a lot of obstacles placed by the Corps and the Army, some of which have not been overcome nor will they be any time soon. As long as the men who fly Apache have to adhere to the career profile that the Army insists on there will be waste.
You can wink all you like but suggesting I’m on here to gain CR points couldn’t be further from the truth, if you knew me then you’d know better. You seem to have confused my loyalty to the Apache (which I love dearly) for trying to gain CR points.
You claim that the only people bringing up this subject [Apache] is us lot, again wide of the mark, check out who started this thread, not an Apache pilot!
As for not saying anything bad against the Corps, when it’s warranted it gets it, though I’ve not said anything good about it either. I will not sit idly by while rubish is stated about the Apache or my fellow Apache pilots, no more than when I was flying Lynx.
We are where we are on this program due to hard work and dedication of a hand-full of fine aviators, who overcame a lot of obstacles placed by the Corps and the Army, some of which have not been overcome nor will they be any time soon. As long as the men who fly Apache have to adhere to the career profile that the Army insists on there will be waste.
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Re: 3 more Apache pilots resign
AHQHI656 is correct about many things that he writes on here and is a top bloke, but he stops short of the full reality of the situation, for the right reasons 'world of **it springs to mind'. 
QHI656 and the rest of the AH pilots are undoubtedly proud and clearly revel in the achievement of qualifying on AH, and so they should. Their pride along with the knowledge of what the aircraft is capable of clearly frustrates them when they continue to suffer from poor serviceability and have few realistic training opportunities to look forward to, at least one's without shouting Bang, Bang, Bang, anyways...Joke!
The apparent lack of willingness to providing funding for the AH is frankly worrying, the RAF don't suffer to this degree I'm certain. Don't budget training; if X capability costs Y it stands to reason that if you provide Y- funds then you will only achieve X- capability or don't civil servants do maths anymore, or is it that they have been promised X+?
The AH has an awesome reputation to maintain and it won't be cheap.
No longer can the phrase "its just another helicopter" be used and for that reason a new bread of fighting leaders must push attack aviation into the limelight with substance to back it up (walk the walk, not Squawk, Squawk), the 'spirit of attack' which they all spout off about. Lets see some.
Can't imagine the consequences of not training regularly when faced with a two way range, only one outcome guaranteed me thinks!
PP.
(Tom, we flew the Twin Engine Torque monster together many times)
QHI656 and the rest of the AH pilots are undoubtedly proud and clearly revel in the achievement of qualifying on AH, and so they should. Their pride along with the knowledge of what the aircraft is capable of clearly frustrates them when they continue to suffer from poor serviceability and have few realistic training opportunities to look forward to, at least one's without shouting Bang, Bang, Bang, anyways...Joke!
The apparent lack of willingness to providing funding for the AH is frankly worrying, the RAF don't suffer to this degree I'm certain. Don't budget training; if X capability costs Y it stands to reason that if you provide Y- funds then you will only achieve X- capability or don't civil servants do maths anymore, or is it that they have been promised X+?
The AH has an awesome reputation to maintain and it won't be cheap.
No longer can the phrase "its just another helicopter" be used and for that reason a new bread of fighting leaders must push attack aviation into the limelight with substance to back it up (walk the walk, not Squawk, Squawk), the 'spirit of attack' which they all spout off about. Lets see some.
Can't imagine the consequences of not training regularly when faced with a two way range, only one outcome guaranteed me thinks!
PP.
(Tom, we flew the Twin Engine Torque monster together many times)
Re: 3 more Apache pilots resign
Ah.. the name PeoplesPoet....brings back happy memories of days at Wallop when out of the ether, a new peoplespoet message on the computer brought joy to the downtrodden QHI masses.
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Re: 3 more Apache pilots resign
Back to basics though...When your getting on a bit..and flying Apache...as a QHI...with pension in back pocket...and along comes Mr ATIL...whom offers you a monday to friday...without deployment....in Hampshire....in civvies...but still flying AH..on equal or maybe even better money...Who in their right mind would say NO?
Muttley Out
Muttley Out
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Re: 3 more Apache pilots resign
Mutleyfour
Not quite right in your post there
Mr ATIL does not come along to you and offer you anything. You have to crawl to him with a date that is believable and agreed by your employers. Then and only then will he talk to you. The gate into ATIL is only one person wide they wouldn't want the masses bending the metal!
LB
Not quite right in your post there
Mr ATIL does not come along to you and offer you anything. You have to crawl to him with a date that is believable and agreed by your employers. Then and only then will he talk to you. The gate into ATIL is only one person wide they wouldn't want the masses bending the metal!
LB
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Re: 3 more Apache pilots resign
I am led to believe that ATIL also offer a reasonable pension, private health care, annual bonus schemes, guaranteed leave (30+ days) and a great quality of life, Oh and not to mention a 30 year contract.
Well if so, now that PAS has been fixed by the masters of all ideas that are brilliant I'm sure retention of AH pilots will be no problem at all...
PP
Well if so, now that PAS has been fixed by the masters of all ideas that are brilliant I'm sure retention of AH pilots will be no problem at all...
PP
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OK-I am bored now!
Guys,
This was an interesting thread - now very dull indeed. So you have some of your older AH pilots leaving and/or going to civilian MoD contracts. If you have a look around all three Services (Shawbury, Bovington and Portsmouth) you will find experienced men/women as civilians on a PFI contract, passing on their years of military experience.
Good - I am glad it is retained indirectly by the military as it would be a real pity to lose these guys to true civilian life in the airlines/civil rotary world.
Maybe continue this on ARRSE if you still think it is news/post worthy, but to be honest (and I have always had the upmost respect for you brown jobs, and envy the opportunity to fly Apache) you are just making yourselves look very spoiled by airing your washing on this forum.
Get over it guys - people will come and go, and don't ever think that you are irreplaceable. Maybe when you guys 'eat yourself up' from the inside there may be no other option but to make the capability Joint, and yes that does include recruiting suitable RAF/RN aircrew to fill those sacred Army AH seats.
If you guys don't want it, then I can assure you that there are many that would bite their arms off to give it a try - even if does mean cam cream, boil in the bags and bivvies!
This was an interesting thread - now very dull indeed. So you have some of your older AH pilots leaving and/or going to civilian MoD contracts. If you have a look around all three Services (Shawbury, Bovington and Portsmouth) you will find experienced men/women as civilians on a PFI contract, passing on their years of military experience.
Good - I am glad it is retained indirectly by the military as it would be a real pity to lose these guys to true civilian life in the airlines/civil rotary world.
Maybe continue this on ARRSE if you still think it is news/post worthy, but to be honest (and I have always had the upmost respect for you brown jobs, and envy the opportunity to fly Apache) you are just making yourselves look very spoiled by airing your washing on this forum.
Get over it guys - people will come and go, and don't ever think that you are irreplaceable. Maybe when you guys 'eat yourself up' from the inside there may be no other option but to make the capability Joint, and yes that does include recruiting suitable RAF/RN aircrew to fill those sacred Army AH seats.
If you guys don't want it, then I can assure you that there are many that would bite their arms off to give it a try - even if does mean cam cream, boil in the bags and bivvies!
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Re: 3 more Apache pilots resign
Bored or boring? 
As a tax payer it might be relevant to ask what is to be done to retain these aircrew costing 1 million a pop. If we turn them round every 4 years that is a hell of a cost.
What is to be done to accelerate to the full manning if we are already backfilling by 4 or 5 bodies to maintain the already understrength first regiment?
Many, many more issues that would raise concern lurk in the undergrowth too.
As a tax payer it might be relevant to ask what is to be done to retain these aircrew costing 1 million a pop. If we turn them round every 4 years that is a hell of a cost.
What is to be done to accelerate to the full manning if we are already backfilling by 4 or 5 bodies to maintain the already understrength first regiment?
Many, many more issues that would raise concern lurk in the undergrowth too.