AH-64 Apache
The Original Whirly
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Well, that's all as clear as....
So while all these departments are sorting out the cock-up at the taxpayer's expense, I think it would be a really really nice gesture for me and The Nr Fairy and Draco and anyone else who's interested, to just kind of...offer to keep them in working order, so to speak. Not that we really want to do any extra flying in a helo like that of course; we'd just be doing it in the interests of...helping out and serving our country and all that kinda stuff.
How about it, guys and gals?
So while all these departments are sorting out the cock-up at the taxpayer's expense, I think it would be a really really nice gesture for me and The Nr Fairy and Draco and anyone else who's interested, to just kind of...offer to keep them in working order, so to speak. Not that we really want to do any extra flying in a helo like that of course; we'd just be doing it in the interests of...helping out and serving our country and all that kinda stuff.
How about it, guys and gals?
PPRuNe Enigma
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Fourth, HM: I thought of it too before HP poured cold water on my JB thread. 
Hey, NrF - right behindya in that queue.
H3ll, I'd even pay for the fuel myself. Just give me a shot. Go on.
Hey, NrF - right behindya in that queue.
H3ll, I'd even pay for the fuel myself. Just give me a shot. Go on.
Wouldn't trouble me at-all. My one sortie in the front of a Hawk (the rest were all in the back) was thoroughly enjoyable, I can't imagine that an AH64 will be any less fun.
G
G
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Well I must say they do look good as hangar Queens. I gathered that the purpose built recovery platform is a tad to short for the machine, they must have measured up the short wheeel base version. It also seams that with the Mast mounted radar it requires a straight vertical lift of at least 12-13ft without touching the sides of the rotor shaft to remove the mast the radar sits on. therefore airtransportable its not. What a shambles. I think if you look back a few months in the military forum "Shawbury the largest Apache base". 
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Seems to me that there is a very simple (simplistic) solution to all of this. If the Army are so short of trained pilots, why not expand the TA to take in other bases as well as Netheravon (I'd like Wattisham please). This would allow a whole bunch of suitably qualified personel in training and support roles to do a short conversion (maybe in the USA) on the AH64 and join the front line anti-tank squadrons in short order.
The good thing about this is that it would free up the support jobs to be taken on by many of the very adequately trained pilots who post on Rotorheads (have to join the TA of course, bit hard to swallow for an ex fish-head). It would not be just Weekends either. The roster of a professional civilian pilot is such that days off are not necessarily taken on weekends.
The Army Brass need to be told of this plan immediately as there is really no down side. Everybody's happy, they just need to stump up the cash.
The good thing about this is that it would free up the support jobs to be taken on by many of the very adequately trained pilots who post on Rotorheads (have to join the TA of course, bit hard to swallow for an ex fish-head). It would not be just Weekends either. The roster of a professional civilian pilot is such that days off are not necessarily taken on weekends.
The Army Brass need to be told of this plan immediately as there is really no down side. Everybody's happy, they just need to stump up the cash.
Senis Semper Fidelis
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What do you chaps think about this for an idea!
Mr G Hoon
Boss man
MOD
Whitehall
London.
Dear Mr Hoon,
As a pilot who loves to be up in the flimsy stuff, I would like to make the following offer:-
I will pay for my own conversion from small stuff to mega stuff like the Apache, and then if you will let me, I'll run a few in for you(so they are ready when your pilots are), I promise to be very careful and only go out when the sun is nearly out, if needs arise I will hop over to Iraq do a bit of blatting and try to not over rev the engine, enclosed please find the pink grannie that seems to be popular in government circles these days, to speed up your answer, please ring me at home.
Oh by the way if the wife answers, dont explain anything.
My Regards
ANY CHANCE OR NOT
Mr G Hoon
Boss man
MOD
Whitehall
London.
Dear Mr Hoon,
As a pilot who loves to be up in the flimsy stuff, I would like to make the following offer:-
I will pay for my own conversion from small stuff to mega stuff like the Apache, and then if you will let me, I'll run a few in for you(so they are ready when your pilots are), I promise to be very careful and only go out when the sun is nearly out, if needs arise I will hop over to Iraq do a bit of blatting and try to not over rev the engine, enclosed please find the pink grannie that seems to be popular in government circles these days, to speed up your answer, please ring me at home.
Oh by the way if the wife answers, dont explain anything.
My Regards
ANY CHANCE OR NOT
Whoa there boys, not so fast! I don't want to put the dampers on
anyone's enthusiasm, but...unfortunately you have to have completed
an Army Pilots course to be eligible to fly helicopters in the TA.
I have , and I do , so ya sucks boo to the lot of you.
anyone's enthusiasm, but...unfortunately you have to have completed
an Army Pilots course to be eligible to fly helicopters in the TA.
I have
, and I do , so ya sucks boo to the lot of you.
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Yeah but there must be loads of ex-service guys and girls who have done a gazelle course at some point in their careers and who, now as civilian pilots (esp over winter) have a bit of time on their hands.
All it would take would be a refresher course and Army role training. Tailored somewhat for the inevitable lack of continuity obviously.
Been a Navy QHI, done the UAS flying at the weekend, believe me, it can be done. Just need to get rid of a few prejudices and dish the dosh. Let's do it..
All it would take would be a refresher course and Army role training. Tailored somewhat for the inevitable lack of continuity obviously.
Been a Navy QHI, done the UAS flying at the weekend, believe me, it can be done. Just need to get rid of a few prejudices and dish the dosh. Let's do it..
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Boeing Delivers Final UK Apache
Boeing Delivers Final UK Apache To AgustaWestland
ST. LOUIS, Mo., March 27, 2003
Boeing will deliver their final Apache helicopter for the United Kingdom the same way it delivered the first – ahead of schedule.
All 67 multi-role UK Apaches for the British Army – either complete aircraft or in kit form – were delivered on or ahead of schedule to prime contractor AgustaWestland over the past four years.
The UK Apache is the United Kingdom’s version of the next-generation AH-64D Apache Longbow. Produced at Boeing in Mesa, Ariz., the British Army will field these Apache aircraft under the designation AH Mk1.
Boeing built eight Apache aircraft and partially assembled the remaining 59 for AgustaWestland. Final assembly, flight test, delivery and support is taking place at AgustaWestland’s Yeovil, United Kingdom facility.
The program quickly earned a reputation as an example of successful international collaboration that provided both military and economic benefits to both the United Kingdom and the United States. The collaboration logged its first delivery on Sept. 28, 1998.
“This truly has been an international team effort,” said Al Winn, vice president of Apache Programs in Mesa. “Together, we’ve exceeded our expectations on many levels and met those commitments without sacrificing quality or product integrity.”
Martin Fausset, Apache program director for AgustaWestland, said, "This delivery is a milestone event that is the culmination of a most significant and successful collaboration between Westland and Boeing.
“Much has been achieved in this unique Anglo-American team effort. By serving and meeting the needs of the Ministry of Defence to introduce both an attack helicopter and an air manoeuvre capability within the British Army, we have collectively harnessed our combined strengths.”
Fausset added, “We are now well placed to further develop our association into the next decade with future endeavours that will build upon Westland and Boeing’s proven track records in managing complex international programs."
AgustaWestland was the first customer to acquire Apaches under a commercial contract, completing assembly and delivering them to the British Ministry of Defence for the British Army Air Corps.
The UK Apache incorporates a series of enhancements that make it more effective in combat, and more survivable, deployable and maintainable in the field. The UK Apache’s fire control radar and advanced avionics suite give combat pilots the ability to rapidly detect, classify, prioritize and engage stationary or moving enemy targets at standoff ranges in nearly all weather environments.
The UK Apache’s ability to communicate digitally with other aircraft and ground forces, and to share that information almost instantly, also gives it a significant warfighting advantage over current combat helicopters. With the advanced Longbow fire control radar, UK Apache crews can scan the battlefield in real time, classify and prioritize multiple threats, and digitally share this battlefield information with other next-generation Apaches and other friendly forces.
ST. LOUIS, Mo., March 27, 2003
Boeing will deliver their final Apache helicopter for the United Kingdom the same way it delivered the first – ahead of schedule.
All 67 multi-role UK Apaches for the British Army – either complete aircraft or in kit form – were delivered on or ahead of schedule to prime contractor AgustaWestland over the past four years.
The UK Apache is the United Kingdom’s version of the next-generation AH-64D Apache Longbow. Produced at Boeing in Mesa, Ariz., the British Army will field these Apache aircraft under the designation AH Mk1.
Boeing built eight Apache aircraft and partially assembled the remaining 59 for AgustaWestland. Final assembly, flight test, delivery and support is taking place at AgustaWestland’s Yeovil, United Kingdom facility.
The program quickly earned a reputation as an example of successful international collaboration that provided both military and economic benefits to both the United Kingdom and the United States. The collaboration logged its first delivery on Sept. 28, 1998.
“This truly has been an international team effort,” said Al Winn, vice president of Apache Programs in Mesa. “Together, we’ve exceeded our expectations on many levels and met those commitments without sacrificing quality or product integrity.”
Martin Fausset, Apache program director for AgustaWestland, said, "This delivery is a milestone event that is the culmination of a most significant and successful collaboration between Westland and Boeing.
“Much has been achieved in this unique Anglo-American team effort. By serving and meeting the needs of the Ministry of Defence to introduce both an attack helicopter and an air manoeuvre capability within the British Army, we have collectively harnessed our combined strengths.”
Fausset added, “We are now well placed to further develop our association into the next decade with future endeavours that will build upon Westland and Boeing’s proven track records in managing complex international programs."
AgustaWestland was the first customer to acquire Apaches under a commercial contract, completing assembly and delivering them to the British Ministry of Defence for the British Army Air Corps.
The UK Apache incorporates a series of enhancements that make it more effective in combat, and more survivable, deployable and maintainable in the field. The UK Apache’s fire control radar and advanced avionics suite give combat pilots the ability to rapidly detect, classify, prioritize and engage stationary or moving enemy targets at standoff ranges in nearly all weather environments.
The UK Apache’s ability to communicate digitally with other aircraft and ground forces, and to share that information almost instantly, also gives it a significant warfighting advantage over current combat helicopters. With the advanced Longbow fire control radar, UK Apache crews can scan the battlefield in real time, classify and prioritize multiple threats, and digitally share this battlefield information with other next-generation Apaches and other friendly forces.
Who does the pilot training?
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It's great to know that the aircraft have been delivered in timely fashion, but the lack of their presence in the skies above Great Britain, must raise many questions. (A large number are unused and in storage at RAF Shawbury - no great secret)
I will leave the question of WHY to those with the technical expertise to expand appropriately.
Seems a shame to spend so much.................
I will leave the question of WHY to those with the technical expertise to expand appropriately.
Seems a shame to spend so much.................
Blade Slapper....the more important question is why there are none in the skies of Iraq over the British Forces there on the ground! Someone saving the best kit for some other bit of "Unpleasantness"?
Well it's been said before but I'll say it again. Yes the delivery of the aircraft is a great success. Name me any other piece of major military hardware that has been delivered on time, let alone ahead of time.
The major problem was the contract for the training package, with holes in it big enough to drive a bus through. Additionally the full mission simulator was approximately 18 months to 2 years late in coming on line. This forms such a large part of the training package, especially the tactical side of things, that squadron conversion training cannot go ahead without it.
The first squadron should start their training this year. After that, as you will probably know SASLess, that squadron, aircrew and groundcrew, will require workup training at Troop/Flight level and then Squadron/Company level.
OK, there are 20 odd QHI/IPs trained on the aircraft, but they are trained to taech other people how to fly it. They haven't done any intensive tactical training. Even if they did take some to the Gulf. Who would then train the crews back here. That would further delay the Operational Ready date.
You don't run before you can walk or try and hover on you first helicopter lesson.
The major problem was the contract for the training package, with holes in it big enough to drive a bus through. Additionally the full mission simulator was approximately 18 months to 2 years late in coming on line. This forms such a large part of the training package, especially the tactical side of things, that squadron conversion training cannot go ahead without it.
The first squadron should start their training this year. After that, as you will probably know SASLess, that squadron, aircrew and groundcrew, will require workup training at Troop/Flight level and then Squadron/Company level.
OK, there are 20 odd QHI/IPs trained on the aircraft, but they are trained to taech other people how to fly it. They haven't done any intensive tactical training. Even if they did take some to the Gulf. Who would then train the crews back here. That would further delay the Operational Ready date.
You don't run before you can walk or try and hover on you first helicopter lesson.
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It would appear that (probably for the sake of political pressure) the UK models are not standard build, so that there is a level of UK componentary. The consequences seem to be that bits from fired weapons can get in the tail rotor: there are problems with the head / drive train because of engine differences and the alternate fitted cannon wants to shake everything to bits!
If I am incorrect on any of this then I apologise to those who may know more detail, but sounds a little like the same meddling people who procured the SA80 rifle have had their fingers in this pie !
Either way the taxpayer has paid out and all we've got to show for it is a bunch of shiny museum pieces, because they are not in the sky, where they should be.
If I am incorrect on any of this then I apologise to those who may know more detail, but sounds a little like the same meddling people who procured the SA80 rifle have had their fingers in this pie !
Either way the taxpayer has paid out and all we've got to show for it is a bunch of shiny museum pieces, because they are not in the sky, where they should be.
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Army's Apaches learn from F1
Story from BBC NEWS
Army's Apaches learn F1 lessons
The British Army has managed to halve the refuelling times for its fleet of Apache helicopters by studying the pit stop techniques of Formula One teams.
The idea was sparked by the Directorate of Army Aviation, which invited a team of Formula One engineers to its base to look at army crews in action.
An Army spokesman said the collaboration came about not because there were specific problems with refuelling, but simply as an exercise to improve techniques.
"The Army often works with private industry to explore new ideas and improve operations," the spokesman said.
For their part, personnel from the British Army Air Corps were also invited to a number of Grand Prix to watch pit stop procedures during races.
There was also a brand new Apache attack helicopter on display at Silverstone ahead of Sunday's British Grand Prix.
A spokesperson from Formula One's governing body, the FIA, said of the collaboration: "These exchanges led to a number of relatively minor changes which when implemented together have made the complete procedure more efficient, contributing towards cutting the rearming and refuelling time for an Apache by 50 per cent."
Pilot shortage
The Army's new £3bn fleet of Apaches have encountered a major setback since the first batch was delivered, down to the lack of trained pilots currently available to fly them.
A National Audit Office report last October revealed that dozens of the new £3bn fleet would have to be kept in storage for four years due to the shortage.
Apache facts
Cost: £45m
Top speed: 162 mph
Range: 285 miles
Engine: Rolls Royce
Weapons: 16 Hellfire missiles, 76 Rockets (2.75"), 1200 cannon rounds (30mm), 4 air to air missiles
The NAO report warned that although the Apaches were being delivered on time, a private finance initiative (PFI) deal to train aircrew was three years late.
Eleven of the 25 helicopters so far delivered - out of an order for 67 - are having to be stored in aircraft hangars.
The delivery of a further 16 Apache helicopters is scheduled for February 2005.
The British Army has managed to halve the refuelling times for its fleet of Apache helicopters by studying the pit stop techniques of Formula One teams.
The idea was sparked by the Directorate of Army Aviation, which invited a team of Formula One engineers to its base to look at army crews in action.
An Army spokesman said the collaboration came about not because there were specific problems with refuelling, but simply as an exercise to improve techniques.
"The Army often works with private industry to explore new ideas and improve operations," the spokesman said.
For their part, personnel from the British Army Air Corps were also invited to a number of Grand Prix to watch pit stop procedures during races.
There was also a brand new Apache attack helicopter on display at Silverstone ahead of Sunday's British Grand Prix.
A spokesperson from Formula One's governing body, the FIA, said of the collaboration: "These exchanges led to a number of relatively minor changes which when implemented together have made the complete procedure more efficient, contributing towards cutting the rearming and refuelling time for an Apache by 50 per cent."
Pilot shortage
The Army's new £3bn fleet of Apaches have encountered a major setback since the first batch was delivered, down to the lack of trained pilots currently available to fly them.
A National Audit Office report last October revealed that dozens of the new £3bn fleet would have to be kept in storage for four years due to the shortage.
Apache facts
Cost: £45m
Top speed: 162 mph
Range: 285 miles
Engine: Rolls Royce
Weapons: 16 Hellfire missiles, 76 Rockets (2.75"), 1200 cannon rounds (30mm), 4 air to air missiles
The NAO report warned that although the Apaches were being delivered on time, a private finance initiative (PFI) deal to train aircrew was three years late.
Eleven of the 25 helicopters so far delivered - out of an order for 67 - are having to be stored in aircraft hangars.
The delivery of a further 16 Apache helicopters is scheduled for February 2005.