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Two helicopters collide - Gold Coast, Queensland - Sea World 2/1/2023

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Two helicopters collide - Gold Coast, Queensland - Sea World 2/1/2023

Old 5th Jan 2023, 07:44
  #221 (permalink)  
 
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obsessive

In the in flight video the right rear paaseenger tapping the pilot means that the ascending helicopter (VH-XHQ)was just below at starboard moments before impact This is diagonally opposite the pilot. At the beginning of the clip a left sided rear passenger can also be seen videoing indicating nothing untoward was apparent on the portside at level flight at least The damage to the cockpit of VH-XH9 with clean entry on starbord but shreds on portside exit indicate the rotor hit into starboard
The time of day meant that VH-XH9 may have been against the sun to the ascending helicopter just before impact . The fact that the craft were dark blue may have in effect camouflaged VH-XHQ against the water Either way the arriving/departing craft should have been looped in course and seperated in time so that cross over flightpaths would not have been possible .The investigation will focus on whether procedures were in place & if so whether they were followed .CASA seems quite deficient in preventative guidance for airspace regulation in uncontrolled airspace & specifically for helicopters - except with reference to helicopters visa vis fixed wing aircraft By contrast the Grand Canyon has a 150 page special flight rules area procedure manual and can handle 7 takeoffs simultaneously.

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Old 5th Jan 2023, 07:57
  #222 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Twist & Shout
...With two of us looking, it can be difficult to impossible to spot the traffic. And trust me, this is with lots of head movement and diligent ďscanningĒ.

Is a phrase that can only be trotted out by someone without sin. (Or perhaps without experience, especially on how much traffic that person might have unknowingly missed.)
I second this sentiment. One of the most revealing aspects of operating with TCAS / TAS systems is how much proximate traffic can go unsighted despite multi-crew and diligent scanning in the correct parts of the sky.
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Old 5th Jan 2023, 08:00
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Itís not that uncommon to be taking off into wind wind approaching downwind or vice versa due to the design of the pads or noise avoidance. In high volume movements this type of procedure can cause issues.

More than likely nothing to do with this incident. The point being thereís so many variables involved when finding the holes in the cheese. I have no doubt the investigation will find there will be numerous factors involved.

Itís important to remember weíre all human no one is perfect, every Pilot I know including myself have made mistakes and, if you havenít youíre either full of **** or you not done much.

RIP to all the departed and my thoughts are with the driver of the aircraft that landed. Weíll done mate you did a good job getting your pax on the ground safe.
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Old 5th Jan 2023, 08:01
  #224 (permalink)  
 
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Spotting

Had several occasions of being warned that Concorde was going subsonic and descending through our level...did we ever see her? No bl@@dy chance..that's with three pairs of eyes and a weather radar..
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Old 5th Jan 2023, 08:07
  #225 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by flopzone
​​​​
It all boils down to what i said initially. What amounts to a busy airline, working on a nod and a wink for ATC.
If a Pilot needs to be tapped on the shoulder by a passenger, the Pilot shouldt be flying.
I wonder, would a Pilot Observer have been of value? Is it worth the loss of $150 a flight to be safer?
I wonder what the dead think.
Come on, remember what has been pointed out a good number of times already re the media fishing for things, I amongst many others (I don't doubt) didn't reference cost and such a slam dunk comment. This is the sort of comment to be reused by the media. I'm choosing my words carefully and I suggest others do too.

​​​​Let the report come out in good time and I couldn't agree more that reducing the number of pax would in effect stuff up the tour industry and that in turn is likely to mean smaller machines to keep the cost down and thus the 130 not being used. Surely that's not in the best interest of all pax and crew?
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Old 5th Jan 2023, 09:02
  #226 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by XLwombat
In the in flight video the right rear paaseenger tapping the pilot means that the ascending helicopter (VH-XHQ)was just below at starboard moments before impact This is diagonally opposite the pilot. At the beginning of the clip a left sided rear passenger can also be seen videoing indicating nothing untoward was apparent on the portside at level flight at least The damage to the cockpit of VH-XH9 with clean entry on starbord but shreds on portside exit indicate the rotor hit into starboard
The time of day meant that VH-XH9 may have been against the sun to the ascending helicopter just before impact . The fact that the craft were dark blue may have in effect camouflaged VH-XHQ against the water Either way the arriving/departing craft should have been looped in course and seperated in time so that cross over flightpaths would not have been possible .The investigation will focus on whether procedures were in place & if so whether they were followed .CASA seems quite deficient in preventative guidance for airspace regulation in uncontrolled airspace & specifically for helicopters - except with reference to helicopters visa vis fixed wing aircraft By contrast the Grand Canyon has a 150 page special flight rules area procedure manual and can handle 7 takeoffs simultaneously.
We are talking about helicopters here, not boats.

The ascending helicopter approached from the left (port side).

The ascending helicopter was not diagonally opposite the pilot as it was on the left side, which is also the side the pilot is seated.

I feel like youíve watched a mirror image of the video.
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Old 5th Jan 2023, 09:02
  #227 (permalink)  
 
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Bellringer - regards your earlier post - AS 350 and B412EP that were both ex-mil training contract with TAS Sentinel fitted, plus AS365 with the same but a bigger screen, also on mil contract.
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Old 5th Jan 2023, 09:07
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As a basic application of right of way rules, since the aircraft on climbout had the other aircraft on its right, the aircraft in the cruise (preparing for landing) had the right of way.
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Old 5th Jan 2023, 09:32
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Originally Posted by SLFMS
Full opposite rudder

Your thoughts echo mine. I empathise with that passenger. I suspect for a long time they will ask themselves if they could have done more. They have no responsibility however survivors guilt is a nasty thing. While it might have been possible their reaction was natural and what most people would have done. Hindsight is 20/20
A lot of us have been in that situation, asking ourselves "what if".

Last edited by Chock Puller; 5th Jan 2023 at 11:41. Reason: Stick to the subject at hand.
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Old 5th Jan 2023, 09:36
  #230 (permalink)  
 
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One thing I havenít seen mentioned for now is the sun position in relation to the two helicopters. Looking at the vision from inside the landing helicopter, it seems the sun is coming in from the pilots right, which would suggest the pilot taking off was flying into the sun.

Iím not a professional pilot, but my thoughts go out to everyone involved in this accident.
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Old 5th Jan 2023, 10:09
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Originally Posted by Antsl
One thing I havenít seen mentioned for now is the sun position in relation to the two helicopters. Looking at the vision from inside the landing helicopter, it seems the sun is coming in from the pilots right, which would suggest the pilot taking off was flying into the sun.

Iím not a professional pilot, but my thoughts go out to everyone involved in this accident.
2pm mid summer on the Gold Coast, the sun is quite overhead and unlikely to be an issue.

Check the shortness of the shadows in photos taken at the accident scene, linked on the first couple of pages here.
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Old 5th Jan 2023, 10:18
  #232 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bell_ringer
All a TA system will tell you, in close proximity to a helistop, is that there is a lot of traffic to avoid. Distracting alerts that state the obvious, while drawing the eyes inwards, don’t help prevent accidents.
Not an airliner TCAS with TAs and RA alerts etc., but a much simpler, decluttered display showing only very local traffic that a pilot could look at just before lifting:

"Right, there is one just above me and to my right. Let's find him visually before I lift, or wait for him to pass first." - and reverting to standard eyes outside flying for the actual lift.

Maybe this is what the TAS system provides?
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Old 5th Jan 2023, 10:43
  #233 (permalink)  
 
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Looking at the onboard video, I'm thinking the relative positions of the two machines maybe keep the departing machine in the arriving pilot's blind spot behind the windscreen pillar pretty much most of the time. If he's not heard or missed a departure call from the other chopper, why would he be looking for one?
At least he'll be able to provide one side of the story.

Last edited by Traffic_Is_Er_Was; 5th Jan 2023 at 10:53.
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Old 5th Jan 2023, 11:20
  #234 (permalink)  
 
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If a Pilot needs to be tapped on the shoulder by a passenger, the Pilot shouldt be flying.
I wonder, would a Pilot Observer have been of value? Is it worth the loss of $150 a flight to be safer?
You are somewhat contradicting yourself there - on the one hand you suggest that the pilot should be all seeing and all knowing, without any external assistance, on the other hand you suggest that maybe he isn't all seeing and all knowing, and could do with some assistance!
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Old 5th Jan 2023, 11:22
  #235 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
As a basic application of right of way rules, since the aircraft on climbout had the other aircraft on its right, the aircraft in the cruise (preparing for landing) had the right of way.
Irrespective of left or right, a landing aircraft has the right of way (CASR 91.330)
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Old 5th Jan 2023, 11:48
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The pilot did not seem like he was even remotely expecting the second helicopter from the left.
It is possible that the pilot of the landing helicopter heard what radio calls were made by the departing helicopter.
It is also possible that he was expecting the departing helicopter to have departed from one of the landing pads that the pilot of the landing helicopter was tracking to. This would place the helicopters on diverging tracks.
If that is what he was expecting, he would be looking to the right side or the South side of his machine for the departing helicopter which would track South. From the video, this appears to be the case.
The fact is that the departing helicopter departed from a helipad to the North of the intending landing pads for the landing helicopter put both helicopters on crossing tracks.
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Old 5th Jan 2023, 13:12
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Originally Posted by Traffic_Is_Er_Was
Irrespective of left or right, a landing aircraft has the right of way (CASR 91.330)
Except that he isn't actually landing, he is positioning before making his approach.
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Old 5th Jan 2023, 13:33
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Originally Posted by blind pew
Had several occasions of being warned that Concorde was going subsonic and descending through our level...did we ever see her? No bl@@dy chance..that's with three pairs of eyes and a weather radar..
Never seen an aircraft return on wx radar.
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Old 5th Jan 2023, 13:47
  #239 (permalink)  
 
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It’s all about angle of the dangle..
Along with route offsets,making unofficial pilot to pilot position points on vhf2 it was a way of supplementing safety especially when working ATC of HF…
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Old 5th Jan 2023, 14:03
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Well that it explains it then 🙂

I did dabble with the angle of the dangle, and zinging the ping, but couldn’t see a thing.

Fortunately, I’m blessed to have TCAS

Last edited by Torquetalk; 5th Jan 2023 at 15:10.
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