Two helicopters collide - Gold Coast, Queensland - Sea World 2/1/2023
Your ability to "see" the traffic can be limited by your expectation of where to look.
Humans make mistakes, pilots make mistakes - the idea is to have systems and procedures in place to stop the humans making those mistakes.
RT procedures, flight-path deconfliction both in elevation and azimuth and good, regular training.
We know there is, almost without exception, more than one causal factor for any accident and sometimes even the best mitigations are found wanting when the holes in the swiss cheese line up.
RT procedures, flight-path deconfliction both in elevation and azimuth and good, regular training.
We know there is, almost without exception, more than one causal factor for any accident and sometimes even the best mitigations are found wanting when the holes in the swiss cheese line up.
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"The landing pilot was possibly not aware that the departing aircraft was operating from the former helipad as he is not looking in that direction. He may have been looking at the new facility to sight the departing helo as he would have heard the departing helo's radio call."
....It's not a former Helipad though, my observations are it is the boarding pad, at least before Covid it was...I frequently witnessed it. At first glance, and the footage now released, well, it's hard not to conclude that departing failed to know where incoming was, not sighted certainly!?
but thats my 2c worth, based on nothing more than experience and the footage released to public....lets see what ATSB says in 18 or 24 months from now...
....It's not a former Helipad though, my observations are it is the boarding pad, at least before Covid it was...I frequently witnessed it. At first glance, and the footage now released, well, it's hard not to conclude that departing failed to know where incoming was, not sighted certainly!?
but thats my 2c worth, based on nothing more than experience and the footage released to public....lets see what ATSB says in 18 or 24 months from now...
MJA Chaser, Bell_ringer, brokenagain - I want you as pilots if you spotted the helicopter swiftly in that video. The departing helipad comes into view easily, but I had to look hard, frame by frame to see what may be the departing helicopter. Is the item circled in red (just above departing helipad) in screen shot below what you believe is that helicopter? At first I thought this was features on the ground. I can understand there may have been a lack of relative movement given they were on a collision course, but it doesn't seem to get larger in the few frames it is in view, and no sign of rotors but that may simply be due to the video frame rate. Or did you see something else? It sure puts the collision somewhat more into context.
It appears the pillar would have blocked the pilots view for a substantial part of the other helicopter's climb.
reminds me of this video, which could shed some light on why the pilots didn't see each other
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYeeTvitvFU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYeeTvitvFU
There is looking and there is scanning. An active scan needs to be worked into cockpit routines and maintained. It is part of the low level concentration involved in routine leg flying.
That said, the investigation will surely look at the procedural aspects of the operations - deconfliction patterns, calls and potential threats therein. Reducing the risk of this happening starts somewhere else
That said, the investigation will surely look at the procedural aspects of the operations - deconfliction patterns, calls and potential threats therein. Reducing the risk of this happening starts somewhere else
Last edited by Torquetalk; 4th Jan 2023 at 10:49.
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If I knew another aircraft was taking off near me - RT call presumably - I would be scanning constantly to locate it and I suspect most other pilots would do the same.
There is nothing worse than knowing another aircraft is somewhere near you and not being able to see it.
There is nothing worse than knowing another aircraft is somewhere near you and not being able to see it.
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Remember the object on a collision course with you may not move in relative position. If it’s behind a pillar it will stay there until it fills your windscreen.
The talk of the pilot being distracted at the moment of impact… I wonder whether the turning of his head saved his sight.
The talk of the pilot being distracted at the moment of impact… I wonder whether the turning of his head saved his sight.
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There will also be video from the departing helicopter and it will probably mirror the video shown, in that the pax will be trying to alert the pilot to the impending collision. What I think this accident will highlight is the fatal limitations of see and avoid as a method of traffic separation in a busy bit of airspace, regardless of procedures, policies and volumes of an SMS.
Declaration to Senior Pilot, clareprop, and others: I am not a pilot, nor in the industry, but have followed it as an enthusiast for years. My job involved helicopter safety in a peripheral way from time to time. I read Aviation Safety Digest in my youth and still hold on to those. Hope that my reading ASD isn't considered distasteful. I have tried to be careful in what ever I write on PPRuNe, but if anything I comment on is considered inaccurate, please say so and explain for the benefit of me and everyone else.
Watching the footage released by Channel 7 reminded me that in mid-air collisions the approaching aircraft remains visually small until only a short time before the collision. Also the lack of relative movement of aircraft on a collision course (as the video link shared by hargreaves99 also shows well). I tried to find the item which illustrated this graphically (of view of a military aircraft at different times from impact). While I didn't find that item (may have been in another journal), I instead found the article "Mid-air!" in ASD 142 from page 6-7 which can be found at: https://www.atsb.gov.au/sites/defaul...142_spr_89.pdf . Figure 1 shows the small visual size until shortly before impact, Figure 2 again shows the problem of the lack of relative motion in lead-up to a collision.
The article that follows in that issue concerns the collision between a Piper PA28 and a DC-9 with illustrations of obstruction of field of view and calculated probability of detection of the opposing aircraft vs range and time to collision.
Watching the footage released by Channel 7 reminded me that in mid-air collisions the approaching aircraft remains visually small until only a short time before the collision. Also the lack of relative movement of aircraft on a collision course (as the video link shared by hargreaves99 also shows well). I tried to find the item which illustrated this graphically (of view of a military aircraft at different times from impact). While I didn't find that item (may have been in another journal), I instead found the article "Mid-air!" in ASD 142 from page 6-7 which can be found at: https://www.atsb.gov.au/sites/defaul...142_spr_89.pdf . Figure 1 shows the small visual size until shortly before impact, Figure 2 again shows the problem of the lack of relative motion in lead-up to a collision.
The article that follows in that issue concerns the collision between a Piper PA28 and a DC-9 with illustrations of obstruction of field of view and calculated probability of detection of the opposing aircraft vs range and time to collision.
Last edited by Senior Pilot; 4th Jan 2023 at 11:35. Reason: Add YouTube link
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[email protected] - thanks. I did not read the entire thread. Appreciate the clarification.
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There will also be video from the departing helicopter and it will probably mirror the video shown, in that the pax will be trying to alert the pilot to the impending collision. What I think this accident will highlight is the fatal limitations of see and avoid as a method of traffic separation in a busy bit of airspace, regardless of procedures, policies and volumes of an SMS.
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As mentioned above, in the video at 24 secs you can see the other helicopter extremely briefly and then between 32-34 secs you can see the rotors coming into view at the front left section of the windscreen (look just above the edge of the front passenger's seat ) - they appear white in the video, presumably as the light reflects off them.
Those are my sentiments as well. Looking at the fairly high resolution photo posted by logansi (post #69) at first I thought those grey tubes hanging out the front were related to the tail rotor controls. But then I realised that just wouldn't be possible to still have had a safe landing. The pedal linkages would be somewhat back from the front edge of the forward end of the cabin floor, per attached photo from www of an EC130B4 cabin, and in any case concentrated to the left side. So are those tubes simply support braces for the forward end of the cabin? Something grey just visible on RHS forward in image below.
Also, in the audio of footage of VH-XH9 landing, there also seems to be an unusual rotor noise, perhaps of the order of once per revolution of the main rotor. I thought that may be due to damage to the main rotor but that isn't obvious in photos I have seen. So it it perhaps just airflow noise over the shattered cockpit which wouldn't exist on an intact EC130? Or am I reading too much into what I hear?
Also, in the audio of footage of VH-XH9 landing, there also seems to be an unusual rotor noise, perhaps of the order of once per revolution of the main rotor. I thought that may be due to damage to the main rotor but that isn't obvious in photos I have seen. So it it perhaps just airflow noise over the shattered cockpit which wouldn't exist on an intact EC130? Or am I reading too much into what I hear?
The unusual rotor noise may have been plastic, or fabric, FOD or something loose from the smashed up cockpit egressing up into the rotor blades and sticking onto the leading edge, causing that unusual noise. And I'd guess that during rapid rotor shutdown with the rotor brake, that whatever may have been on the rotor blades has just fallen off onto the ground, just a guess due to so many loose items in the crash. Most likely you will never know as evidence of that just falls off, not that it would be investigated due to rotor noise seemingly not the cause of the other aircraft crash.
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