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HeliService International win Lincs & Notts Air Ambulance

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HeliService International win Lincs & Notts Air Ambulance

Old 23rd Apr 2021, 06:39
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Medevac999 View Post
Does Heliservice and Wiking have a UK AOC?
Interesting question - I think Wiking either do or have been applying for one as recruiters on LinkedIn have been trying to find people for Head of Crew Training roles on the H145 in Scotland and the South East.

I suspect HeliServices have an AOC application in, but did pick up on the use of the word cabotage by Rob Bishton in relation to ‘air ambulance’ operations so perhaps they have an agreement to allow some EU based AOCs to operate within the U.K. for a period? I can’t substantiate it, or any potential gains to U.K. operators from such an arrangement, but if true it would appear to present another kick in the teeth from Brexit, and in my opinion a lack of judgement given the lack of reciprocity agreed this far.

The helihub link says “The operator is already on the UK CAA’s list of approved European operators who can fly commercially in the UK” read into that what you will. Heli Service are not listed as having a TCO approval https://www.caa.co.uk/Commercial-ind...-Certificates/


https://helihub.com/2021/04/22/germa...uk-ems-market/

Last edited by Aucky; 23rd Apr 2021 at 07:27.
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Old 23rd Apr 2021, 08:02
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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How about combining all the air ambulance charities into one - saves on a lot of CEOs salaries - then have one company provide aircraft, pilots and engineering.

Economies of scale, mutual cross cover, the ability to move 'odd' people to different ponds, standardisation across the board, one or maybe two aircraft types, one AOC - the list goes on.

Sounds a bit like the SAR contract but perhaps that is exactly what is needed instead of this fragmented and inefficient set up we have now.

Put the police air provision into the equation as well and share the funding between Govt and the 'single' charity.
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Old 23rd Apr 2021, 08:04
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
How about combining all the air ambulance charities into one - saves on a lot of CEOs salaries - then have one company provide aircraft, pilots and engineering.

Economies of scale, mutual cross cover, the ability to move 'odd' people to different ponds, standardisation across the board, one or maybe two aircraft types, one AOC - the list goes on.

Sounds a bit like the SAR contract but perhaps that is exactly what is needed instead of this fragmented and inefficient set up we have now.

Put the police air provision into the equation as well and share the funding between Govt and the 'single' charity.
At the risk of sounding like a cynic, isn't that exactly what NPAS was meant to do? Doesn't seem to have worked terribly well.

Last edited by gipsymagpie; 24th Apr 2021 at 18:39. Reason: Spellink
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Old 23rd Apr 2021, 08:14
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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UK AOC - or do they piggy back onto an existing UK AOC from a negotiated agreement ? What about getting an Foreign Carrier Permit or Article 250 Permit from the CAA for temporary ops and keep re-applying as required.......
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Old 23rd Apr 2021, 10:18
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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At the risk of sounding like a cyclic, isn't that exactly what NPAS was meant to do? Doesn't seem to have worked terribly well.
Agreed but that seems to have been driven by senior police officers ambitions rather than knowledge of aviation.
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Old 23rd Apr 2021, 11:14
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
How about combining all the air ambulance charities into one - saves on a lot of CEOs salaries - then have one company provide aircraft, pilots and engineering.

Economies of scale, mutual cross cover, the ability to move 'odd' people to different ponds, standardisation across the board, one or maybe two aircraft types, one AOC - the list goes on.

Sounds a bit like the SAR contract but perhaps that is exactly what is needed instead of this fragmented and inefficient set up we have now.

Put the police air provision into the equation as well and share the funding between Govt and the 'single' charity.
I wonder how that would work from a fundraising aspect as a charity. The money generally comes from the same donors and businesses where there’s a feeling of local pride over their county’s air ambulance provider. Someone donating in Northumberland may not feel like they see the benefit of their donation if they think it’s being spent in Cornwall.
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Old 23rd Apr 2021, 11:30
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
How about combining all the air ambulance charities into one - saves on a lot of CEOs salaries - then have one company provide aircraft, pilots and engineering.
Now this would be the way to go. I personally think the UK Air Ambulance service should be centrally funded from government. I don't think that anybody should have their life dependent upon a charity, like the starving in Africa.
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Old 23rd Apr 2021, 12:23
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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100% agree Sir K. We should not have to rely on charitable donations to fund an emergency service, but I suppose like the lifeboats, the government gets it for free at the moment, so there is no incentive for them to invite the headache of taking it on.
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Old 23rd Apr 2021, 14:47
  #29 (permalink)  
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The charity model is certainly not without its flaws, but so far it has worked quite well in the UK. Modern helicopters, advanced medical equipment, well-trained staff and an excellent safety record. The alternative is either government operated and be starved of investment in equipment and personnel (just look at all the Defence Reviews) or a fully commercial operation like in the US with a less than stellar safety record.

The charity model is widespread in UK society; there are more than 1,600 cancer charities alone. Of course the excesses need to be tackled, but the current system has forged a strong bond between local community and their air ambulance, which simply would not exist if the service was government funded / government operated.
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Old 23rd Apr 2021, 14:56
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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The charity backed air ambulances are considerably better off than the government backed police helicopters. The Charities Commission is constantly warning the air ambulances about the spare millions they have in the bank. Millions that NPAS are desperate for!
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Old 23rd Apr 2021, 15:12
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Come on crab, its jobs for the boys. Look at Cornwall, we better have 2 helicopters because Devon has 2. We haven't spent enough money so we will build a big glass hanger for them and put them both in the same place. We will make them IFR so we can get to Treliske ( the pad there doesnt have an ILS so what's the point ? )
Lets be honest there is a competition between all the charities as to who can have the biggest fastest machine. I have never really understood why they all have to have a trauma doctor on board ? Would he not be more productive being at a hospital ? I still think it is better to have less expensive machines and more of them. BO 105 was small but really cheap to buy and run compared to an AW169. I know the RAF have a Chinook with a trauma team in the back for Afghan which is wear Cornwall seems to want to go. I know it is rough in Cambourne and Redruth but one doesn't step on an IED there !
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Old 23rd Apr 2021, 15:26
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Hughes500 View Post
Come on crab, its jobs for the boys. Look at Cornwall, we better have 2 helicopters because Devon has 2. We haven't spent enough money so we will build a big glass hanger for them and put them both in the same place. We will make them IFR so we can get to Treliske ( the pad there doesnt have an ILS so what's the point ? )
Lets be honest there is a competition between all the charities as to who can have the biggest fastest machine. I have never really understood why they all have to have a trauma doctor on board ? Would he not be more productive being at a hospital ? I still think it is better to have less expensive machines and more of them. BO 105 was small but really cheap to buy and run compared to an AW169. I know the RAF have a Chinook with a trauma team in the back for Afghan which is wear Cornwall seems to want to go. I know it is rough in Cambourne and Redruth but one doesn't step on an IED there !
Doctors provide more than just trauma expertise and are required for some pre-hospital anaesthesia. And interestingly Cornwall is one of the AAs without a doctor on board and travel with 2 specialised paramedics instead, a model used at a number of bases throughout the UK, not all carry doctors.
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Old 23rd Apr 2021, 19:32
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Hughes500 View Post
Come on crab, its jobs for the boys. Look at Cornwall, we better have 2 helicopters because Devon has 2. We haven't spent enough money so we will build a big glass hanger for them and put them both in the same place. We will make them IFR so we can get to Treliske ( the pad there doesnt have an ILS so what's the point ? )
Lets be honest there is a competition between all the charities as to who can have the biggest fastest machine. I have never really understood why they all have to have a trauma doctor on board ? Would he not be more productive being at a hospital ? I still think it is better to have less expensive machines and more of them. BO 105 was small but really cheap to buy and run compared to an AW169. I know the RAF have a Chinook with a trauma team in the back for Afghan which is wear Cornwall seems to want to go. I know it is rough in Cambourne and Redruth but one doesn't step on an IED there !
Only 1 aircraft means a high probability of no service due to any number of tech issues. Good case for having a spare for a time critical service,

BO105 and ILS are not the future. Aircraft with AFCS & IFR capability and RNAV are.

RNAV could open up the flyability window hugely in the coming years, pushing below CAT 1 minima, as the precision and reliability of systems is accepted. Approval of RNAV hospital approaches and approaches/departures to safe pick-up points for remote areas are all thinkable. So much better than buggering about VFR in when the weather is marginal.
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Old 24th Apr 2021, 09:03
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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The argument for 2 aircraft in Devon and Cornwall will be the geographical size of the areas and the relatively poor road links compared to many other UK areas.

Add in the fact that the population doubles when the tourists arrive - which seems most of the year when Covid doesn't prevent travel - and the need to get to the Scillies for Cornwall and you start to see why two is a better option.

A central charity could still promote itself locally just as they do at the moment so the idea that the public are donating to their own AA would still be there.
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Old 24th Apr 2021, 15:25
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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If anyone suggested removing Addenbrookes or Great Ormond Street hospital from the NHS and running them as local charities I suspect the men in white coats would come round. Both these hospitals have serious charities that rightly or wrongly provide additional funding but they are core funded and managed according to NHS standards using NHS employed doctors and nurses under NHS control. Most air ambulance work is trauma which is a multispecialty service that depends upon the weakest link. No sensible clinician, starting from scratch, would allow a single link to be provided by a multitude of local charities and run outside the NHS. It is noteworthy the lack of peer reviewed audit and research about air ambulance work in the UK and the resulting lack of national guidelines and standards for the medical side.

I fully accept the high standards and innovation over the years from the aviation side but there is a difference between the NHS contracting in services it cannot provide (AOC, maintenance) and relying on a disparate provision. The charities have been fantastic and without them and public generosity we would have got nowhere. They should continue, but healthcare funding has moved on from the 1980s and air ambulance work should be part of UK healthcare in the same way as land ambulances.
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Old 24th Apr 2021, 15:40
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by homonculus View Post
If anyone suggested removing Addenbrookes or Great Ormond Street hospital from the NHS and running them as local charities I suspect the men in white coats would come round. Both these hospitals have serious charities that rightly or wrongly provide additional funding but they are core funded and managed according to NHS standards using NHS employed doctors and nurses under NHS control. Most air ambulance work is trauma which is a multispecialty service that depends upon the weakest link. No sensible clinician, starting from scratch, would allow a single link to be provided by a multitude of local charities and run outside the NHS. It is noteworthy the lack of peer reviewed audit and research about air ambulance work in the UK and the resulting lack of national guidelines and standards for the medical side.

I fully accept the high standards and innovation over the years from the aviation side but there is a difference between the NHS contracting in services it cannot provide (AOC, maintenance) and relying on a disparate provision. The charities have been fantastic and without them and public generosity we would have got nowhere. They should continue, but healthcare funding has moved on from the 1980s and air ambulance work should be part of UK healthcare in the same way as land ambulances.
Could you elaborate on the lack of clinical oversight of ambulance charities? Being that they are clinically governed by people that also hold clinical director positions in their local trusts. Being that the NHS and ambulance services aren’t centrally governed either and each trust follow their own guidelines.

Air ambulances are regularly submitting their CQC results and a multitude of papers that confirm their benefit and also confirm outdated clinical practice that needs changing, just like any progressive clinical governance. Clinical trials and different drugs are also trialled by the specialist medics which one day may find themselves in the hands of land ambulance crews further benefitting patients that don’t require a helicopter.

You may also be surprised to find that trauma does not make up as much of the work as it used to with a lot more specific medical work being undertaken.

A perfect system it is not but it would be wrong to think that the clinical governance is not near identical to what is found in the ED of the local trauma centre being that the hospital directors tend to be one in the same, hospital clinical director and air ambulance director.
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Old 24th Apr 2021, 18:47
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Torquetalk View Post
Only 1 aircraft means a high probability of no service due to any number of tech issues. Good case for having a spare for a time critical service,

BO105 and ILS are not the future. Aircraft with AFCS & IFR capability and RNAV are.

RNAV could open up the flyability window hugely in the coming years, pushing below CAT 1 minima, as the precision and reliability of systems is accepted. Approval of RNAV hospital approaches and approaches/departures to safe pick-up points for remote areas are all thinkable. So much better than buggering about VFR in when the weather is marginal.
It is a shame then that the UK have withdrawn from EGNOS with the result that sub-250ft minima will be impossible (ie no LPV); we will only get the free “Open Service” from EGNOS in the future so LNAV and LNAV/LNAV will be the best we can look forward to for some time.

Until we send up our own SBAS satellite which seems to be the farcical solution being proposed by government.
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Old 24th Apr 2021, 18:56
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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"I don't think that anybody should have their life dependent upon a charity"

Like the RNLI? They avoid Govt oversight like the plague but do a good job - and raise a lot of cash every year
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Old 24th Apr 2021, 21:49
  #39 (permalink)  
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There is a great deal of research generated by HEMS medical teams. The ethos of HEMS prehospital research goes right back to Alistair Wilson and John Nicoll who had to fight to get the London service started and then continued. One of the enduring issues with this type of prehospital work is its difficulty. Look at the amount of effort put into the Paramedic 2 study and its results are still questioned. Far more needs to be done.
There are perfectly good audit programmes and protocols that are frequently and well trained in all UK HEMS systems.
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Old 25th Apr 2021, 07:43
  #40 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by torqueshow View Post
I wonder how that would work from a fundraising aspect as a charity. The money generally comes from the same donors and businesses where there’s a feeling of local pride over their county’s air ambulance provider. Someone donating in Northumberland may not feel like they see the benefit of their donation if they think it’s being spent in Cornwall.
Agreed! I answered a knock on our door a while back to find a chap who tried to get me to sign up to a monthly contribution to what he described as “your local” air ambulance. He launched into a sales pitch, telling how important it was, etc etc.

My first thought was that he might be a fraudster. He seemed to have authentic I.d. but it was immediately obvious from it that he was trying to get me to sign up to support a unit that wasn’t our local one at all. I pointed out he was in the wrong county! He asked me why I was saying that and I pointed out that I was in the industry and worked from the same airfield as the unit he was collecting for. I also told him that “my local” air ambulance was about sixty miles from the one he was representing, that a friend was chief pilot of that unit and we already supported that one.

The chap got quite defensive and grumpy; needless to say he didn’t get my bank details.
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