RAF announces Puma Replacement plan

[Baldeep Inminj]

Originally Posted by NIREP reader

Apparently they have flown the Wildcat simulator in Brunei conditions and the feedback was that it performed a lot better than expected.

This statement is completely meaningless without context and standard. It could be that it was expected to be utterly useless, but was just quite bad. In this case it would be better than expected, but still totally unsuitable.

I have not met an RAF pilot yet who does not think that Blackhawk is the most suitable solution.

[MOSTAFA]

I have flown 1400+ Hours in Brunei and was perhaps the man who finally got the Lynx !!!! canned in favour of the 212 the last time. I briefed the then Defence Secretary (George Younger) with his MOD team. I then flew demo’s to the types of LP’s we flew into; in the 3 training areas we used. The were: Labi, Ulu Tutong and the Temburong districts, by far the hardest on the aircraft was Temburong, an average LP in that district had an average temperature of +32 with DA of 5500’ the Tutong, +34 DA 4000’ and the Labi +34 and a DA of 3000’. The other area that has to be taken very carefully into account is using the winch! The Scout MRG oil temp limitations in the hover at those DA’s I forget but I can tell you that it got dangerously high, dangerously quickly. Having a 1000+ on Lynx and being pretty efficient with the ODM it came out with the ability of less payload than the Scout could! Not even seen the New Lynx Mk10 ODM so I’ll leave that to them. Hope that gives a clue!

[tigerfish]

Not the dreadful Mildcat - It can't carry fully equipped troops like the Puma can. The Blackhawk is far more suitable!

TF

[NutLoose]

Sikorsky are pitching Polish built Blackhawks as Puma replacement

https://www.flightglobal.com/helicop...146812.article

[jimf671]

Originally Posted by MOSTAFA

I have flown 1400+ Hours in Brunei and was perhaps the man who finally got the Lynx !!!! canned in favour of the 212 the last time. I briefed the then Defence Secretary (George Younger) with his MOD team. I then flew demo’s to the types of LP’s we flew into; in the 3 training areas we used. The were: Labi, Ulu Tutong and the Temburong districts, by far the hardest on the aircraft was Temburong, an average LP in that district had an average temperature of +32 with DA of 5500’ the Tutong, +34 DA 4000’ and the Labi +34 and a DA of 3000’. The other area that has to be taken very carefully into account is using the winch! The Scout MRG oil temp limitations in the hover at those DA’s I forget but I can tell you that it got dangerously high, dangerously quickly. Having a 1000+ on Lynx and being pretty efficient with the ODM it came out with the ability of less payload than the Scout could! Not even seen the New Lynx Mk10 ODM so I’ll leave that to them. Hope that gives a clue!

British helicopters are temperate zone naval weapons.

[ShyTorque]

Originally Posted by Hot_LZ

I completely empathise with your story of the ‘scales Major’s’ ignorance towards your professional advice but I find it very rich that a crab is complaining about a few Army blokes having a BBQ and a few beers on the beach. I’ve never met a crab yet that’s willing to get their feet wet.

LZ

I wasn't complaining....apart from the Army overloading the aircraft.

But we RAF dry footed folk did have our own barbecue, usually on Sundays at Caye Chapel - until the Army insisted that it was unfair that they weren't invited.

[chopper2004]

Here is the tender folks

https://www.find-tender.service.gov....rchResults&p=1

cheers

[JulieAndrews]

Trouble at Mill?

MD & also the Head of UK Campaigns sacked at LH.
Always sorry to hear when that happens but apparently deemed medically unfit - severe case of lack of long-sightedness !
Sounds like recent press article clarified that there is a far better use for Yeovil than being pre-occupied with hawking a poorly-selling hash-up.

[Baldeep Inminj]

I understand the Blackhawk’s will be provided/modified by a 3rd party in the UK - Teeside I believe.
I also heard yesterday that Bell are very likely to attend the party, bringing the 525 Relentless along as their date.

This will be interesting to watch. Blackhawk is combat proven, 149 is ‘jobs for the lads in the SW’, H175 is ‘jobs for the lads in N Wales’ and uses the same avionics as H135 and H145 used on MFTS, and Bell just makes brilliant helicopters.

Popcorn ready!

[JohnDixson]

A lot will depend on the RAF mission description. If it is admin support, the 525 will compete well. If it involves combat requirements, the ballistic survivability and crashworthy requirements imposed by the US Army in all aspects of the design, ( just one example: to include for instance rotor blade survivability to 23MM HEI hits at various angles ( and provable by actual firing tests ) but the list is pretty long ) will be in play.
But basically those same requirements applied to the AAH competition, so the Apache specs in that regard should be familiar to the MOD folks.

[torqueshow]

Is the 525 even in many civil operators’ fleets? It’s been a bit late to the party for the super medium category with the AW189 and H175 already with a fair bit of time under their belt proving their capabilities (or lack thereof).

I was under the impression that the 525 is still a very unknown quantity.

[Evil Twin]

Originally Posted by torqueshow

Is the 525 even in many civil operators’ fleets? It’s been a bit late to the party for the super medium category with the AW189 and H175 already with a fair bit of time under their belt proving their capabilities (or lack thereof).

I was under the impression that the 525 is still a very unknown quantity.

Don't think it's even certified yet is it?

[EESDL]

Originally Posted by Baldeep Inminj

I understand the Blackhawk’s will be provided/modified by a 3rd party in the UK - Teeside I believe.
I also heard yesterday that Bell are very likely to attend the party, bringing the 525 Relentless along as their date.

This will be interesting to watch. Blackhawk is combat proven, 149 is ‘jobs for the lads in the SW’, H175 is ‘jobs for the lads in N Wales’ and uses the same avionics as H135 and H145 used on MFTS, and Bell just makes brilliant helicopters.

Popcorn ready!

I wouldn’t advertise the H175 / H145 / H145 avionics commonality if I was Airbus.
it is not MOSA and woe betide anyone wanting to use it for stores management etc.
even in basic O&G operation you pay through the nose for any changes. It’s great for O&G and had every confidence in autocoupling approaches - although the odd moment when trapped water in the pipes initiated a descent whilst turning at low level......
Bell’s rationale is simply “why can’t you wait a little bit longer as you’ve delayed to this point”
quite confident that it won’t hit FOC within next 7-10 years with all bells n whistles attached.
latest events in Somerset indicates that someone has finally recognised where the company should be focused / heading.
timeframe requires an existing tried n tested machine and that narrows field to the Blackhawk or an updated Huey. Budget and fleet numbers points towards the midlife Blackhawk out of Alabama / Teesside at approx 60% OEM price but more importantly - a viable delivery target date as LM/ Sikorsky’s European facility is backed-up with orders now that the world has got a lot more serious and you’ll be lucky to see a machine within 3-4 years.
that was direct from the guys at PZL.

[Mee3]

Originally Posted by EESDL

I wouldn’t advertise the H175 / H145 / H145 avionics commonality if I was Airbus.
it is not MOSA and woe betide anyone wanting to use it for stores management etc.
even in basic O&G operation you pay through the nose for any changes. It’s great for O&G and had every confidence in autocoupling approaches - although the odd moment when trapped water in the pipes initiated a descent whilst turning at low level......
Bell’s rationale is simply “why can’t you wait a little bit longer as you’ve delayed to this point”
quite confident that it won’t hit FOC within next 7-10 years with all bells n whistles attached.
latest events in Somerset indicates that someone has finally recognised where the company should be focused / heading.
timeframe requires an existing tried n tested machine and that narrows field to the Blackhawk or an updated Huey. Budget and fleet numbers points towards the midlife Blackhawk out of Alabama / Teesside at approx 60% OEM price but more importantly - a viable delivery target date as LM/ Sikorsky’s European facility is backed-up with orders now that the world has got a lot more serious and you’ll be lucky to see a machine within 3-4 years.
that was direct from the guys at PZL.

customize avionic in today's tech is always expensive. No difference between AH's own helionix and Leonardo's honeywell solution. If you do not go with the OEM, you risk ripping out everything and get someone to redo your entire interface. But at least AH and honeywell last forever, sort of. Better than your mix and match electronic nightmare in a decade down the road.

[chopper2004]

Originally Posted by torqueshow

Is the 525 even in many civil operators’ fleets? It’s been a bit late to the party for the super medium category with the AW189 and H175 already with a fair bit of time under their belt proving their capabilities (or lack thereof).

I was under the impression that the 525 is still a very unknown quantity.

Nope there’s only four flight test vehicles (should have been 5 but there was sadly a fatal crash in summer 2016).

PHi was Launch customer a decade ago Heli a expo 2012 when it was unveiled, then it was meant to be Bristow Group…

When I attended Heli Expo 2020, the final development test vehicle had Norwegian offshore company as launch customer …

And the Teeside company is offshoot of Ace Aeronautics

https://acehawkaerospace.com

cheers

[torqueshow]

Originally Posted by chopper2004

Nope there’s only four flight test vehicles (should have been 5 but there was sadly a fatal crash in summer 2016).

PHi was Launch customer a decade ago Heli a expo 2012 when it was unveiled, then it was meant to be Bristow Group…

When I attended Heli Expo 2020, the final development test vehicle had Norwegian offshore company as launch customer …

And the Teeside company is offshoot of Ace Aeronautics

https://acehawkaerospace.com

cheers

Great info, thanks. Seems like a long shot in that case.

[212man]

Originally Posted by chopper2004

Nope there’s only four flight test vehicles (should have been 5 but there was sadly a fatal crash in summer 2016).

PHi was Launch customer a decade ago Heli a expo 2012 when it was unveiled, then it was meant to be Bristow Group…

When I attended Heli Expo 2020, the final development test vehicle had Norwegian offshore company as launch customer …

And the Teeside company is offshoot of Ace Aeronautics

https://acehawkaerospace.com

cheers

Yes - it's not even certified yet: Bell continues 525 certification push but timeline depends on FAA | News | Flight Global

737Max has probably been a factor in the delays.....

[JulieAndrews]

Mee3......you mean a bit like what the folk at Ace have done?
The stuff Ace have put on Youtube is not cgi - you can ask the Austrians.
That was the whole point of ripping everything out and starting again - to take a great aircraft and make it better for many years to come. Garmin avionics, L3Harris mission controller, GE engines plus a playbook of DAS, CSW etc

[JulieAndrews]

Teeside AceHawk is not an 'offshoot' of Ace Aeronautics - not that it matters at this point. From what I read Ace Aero will be a supplier of the airframe and IP. The expensive stuff such as avionics, engines, DAS sourced and fitted through UK outlets?

[lowfat]

What ever is chosen I expect it will be a balls up.. prove me wrong.