RAF announces Puma Replacement plan
Now hearing of a fire at the Airbus H175 and H160 MGB factory.........add that to the upheavals at Leonardo .....finger of blame is going to start pointing at Ace as the ones to benefit ;-)
@EESDL - you are either clutching at straws to discredit AH here, or your news network needs beefing up. This fire happened on Sunday 9th January (report) and I have only heard it mentioned as affecting H160 deliveries
H175 deliveries are another thing imho. For example, what happened to the order for two from China Rescue at Heli-Expo 2019, given Leonardo announced six AW189s for the same customer at Heli-Expo 2022?
H175 deliveries are another thing imho. For example, what happened to the order for two from China Rescue at Heli-Expo 2019, given Leonardo announced six AW189s for the same customer at Heli-Expo 2022?
@JulieAndrews when you say "From what I read...." could you point us to the article online please, or do you have closer involvement in Acehawk Aerospace Ltd than you are letting on?
Thread Starter
I wonder if any of the other platforms being proposed for this programme can provide such detailed information in the public domain, including acquisition costs? I would be very interested to see any similar data.
https://www.esd.whs.mil/Portals/54/D..._2019_Full.pdf
https://www.esd.whs.mil/Portals/54/D..._2019_Full.pdf
that said - the Antares article is pretty clear
but please let us not forget that this is a rumour network !
Here is the link to Antares and the story starts Page 148. Paul Kennard interviewed all the key players in the project so its not rumours but facts from those spearheading it.
Antares - UK Hawk Feature
Antares - UK Hawk Feature
having a lot of glass is really not adding substantial improvement over gauge with needles. The real benefit of electronics are on the automation of flight that involves a lot of autopilot fine tuning which these guys will not have access to or the cost benefit over airframer.
(If you were referring to a different aircraft's M model, that would explain my confusion).
Ace Aeronautics LLC are classified as the OEM for the avionics upgrade STC.
they have plenty of expertise in any area you could possibly imagine when it comes to the UH-60; as do their neighbours the other companies specialising in leveraging the design and capability advantages of the machine down in sweet Alabama
For Julie Andrews: OK, wasn't sure if the Saudis had made unhappy noises about the M regarding service life.
While I would, being massively biased from having flown the SH-60 and the UH-60 (L's), of course recommend the Blackhawk, I can appreciate the desire to keep the defense industrial base warm and thus the urge to "make it somewhere domestic" informing the ultimate decision. John D I am sure knows a few details that I don't, but I recall an issue with CH-53E swashplate bearings (which ended in tears) that could have been sourced from a German company (the name escapes me, over two decades ago) but a "buy Domestic" imperative was involved and Kaydon supplied them. (They also built/supplied the bearings for the 5" gun mounts on various USN surface ships).
Granted, that's a sub system, or a component, and not the whole aircraft but when large amounts of the tax payers funds are being spent, the pressure to "spend it at home" can be profound.
As this is an interim step to the longer term medium lift requirement, and NGR, the arguments made for 'off the shelf' seem to be pretty strong. (Ned's linked article covers them pretty well).
PS: if you know anyone in the business, please don't let anyone convince the program manager to put the Hontek coating on the M blades if the M is chosen. The US Army ended up with a case of buyer's remorse on that one.
As a matter of curiosity: is the VL-60 related to the US Army's UH-60V (putting the M style glass cockpit into L's) or is it a separate thing entirely?)
Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 29th May 2022 at 20:06.
Blue Thunder replacement
Early morning musings and if there is any conspiracy theories on the upcoming procurement may I suggest a Crystal Ball or speak to a famous East Anglian UFOlogist from this region called Gary with the same family name as our famous Parliamentarian who both swung the Mace and Yeovil which has led to us being in this situation today lol. Maybe they are distantly related!!
Without stating the bleeding obvious that the H175M and AW!89 are less than ideal for what is expected of a true battlefield utility helicopter, and the obvious is the UH-60M/S-70i airframe! There is an old saying that 'one size' fits all with the 4/5 existing platforms. However one question keeps popping into my head and that is about the 658 Sqn AAC.
Unlike 160th SOAR Nightstalkers our 658 formelry * Flt has operated pseudo civvy airframes be it the captured Argentinian A109A or now 365N£...so for good reason their MO is blending into civvy world for the likes of urban assault / hostage rescue. It will give the game away if a Blackhawk airframe comes over the top to drop Herefords finest to rescue say a damsel in distress/ beautiful princess and her kids from the forces of evil. So maybe and a big maybe likes of an AW149 or H175M will do nicely ....
Any thoughts on this?
Cheers
Without stating the bleeding obvious that the H175M and AW!89 are less than ideal for what is expected of a true battlefield utility helicopter, and the obvious is the UH-60M/S-70i airframe! There is an old saying that 'one size' fits all with the 4/5 existing platforms. However one question keeps popping into my head and that is about the 658 Sqn AAC.
Unlike 160th SOAR Nightstalkers our 658 formelry * Flt has operated pseudo civvy airframes be it the captured Argentinian A109A or now 365N£...so for good reason their MO is blending into civvy world for the likes of urban assault / hostage rescue. It will give the game away if a Blackhawk airframe comes over the top to drop Herefords finest to rescue say a damsel in distress/ beautiful princess and her kids from the forces of evil. So maybe and a big maybe likes of an AW149 or H175M will do nicely ....
Any thoughts on this?
Cheers
The point where the aircraft arrives overhead makes it pretty obvious something is up, whether it is a civ model or not.
It is much of the other tasking where anonymity is desirable.
Unfortunately spotters soon learn what is being used and put photos on line anyway.
It is much of the other tasking where anonymity is desirable.
Unfortunately spotters soon learn what is being used and put photos on line anyway.
"Without stating the bleeding obvious that the H175M and AW!89 are less than ideal for what is expected of a true battlefield utility helicopter, and the obvious is the UH-60M/S-70i airframe! There is an old saying that 'one size' fits all with the 4/5 existing platforms. "
I would have gone with the Blackhawk. However the Ukrainians are showing that even helicopters designed for the battlefield are extremely vulnerable, not to mention tanks!!!!
Time for a rethink. .
I would have gone with the Blackhawk. However the Ukrainians are showing that even helicopters designed for the battlefield are extremely vulnerable, not to mention tanks!!!!
Time for a rethink. .
Many thanks for the link, good article.
For Julie Andrews: OK, wasn't sure if the Saudis had made unhappy noises about the M regarding service life.
While I would, being massively biased from having flown the SH-60 and the UH-60 (L's), of course recommend the Blackhawk, I can appreciate the desire to keep the defense industrial base warm and thus the urge to "make it somewhere domestic" informing the ultimate decision. John D I am sure knows a few details that I don't, but I recall an issue with CH-53E swashplate bearings (which ended in tears) that could have been sourced from a German company (the name escapes me, over two decades ago) but a "buy Domestic" imperative was involved and Kaydon supplied them. (They also built/supplied the bearings for the 5" gun mounts on various USN surface ships).
Granted, that's a sub system, or a component, and not the whole aircraft but when large amounts of the tax payers funds are being spent, the pressure to "spend it at home" can be profound.
As this is an interim step to the longer term medium lift requirement, and NGR, the arguments made for 'off the shelf' seem to be pretty strong. (Ned's linked article covers them pretty well).
PS: if you know anyone in the business, please don't let anyone convince the program manager to put the Hontek coating on the M blades if the M is chosen. The US Army ended up with a case of buyer's remorse on that one.
As a matter of curiosity: is the VL-60 related to the US Army's UH-60V (putting the M style glass cockpit into L's) or is it a separate thing entirely?)
For Julie Andrews: OK, wasn't sure if the Saudis had made unhappy noises about the M regarding service life.
While I would, being massively biased from having flown the SH-60 and the UH-60 (L's), of course recommend the Blackhawk, I can appreciate the desire to keep the defense industrial base warm and thus the urge to "make it somewhere domestic" informing the ultimate decision. John D I am sure knows a few details that I don't, but I recall an issue with CH-53E swashplate bearings (which ended in tears) that could have been sourced from a German company (the name escapes me, over two decades ago) but a "buy Domestic" imperative was involved and Kaydon supplied them. (They also built/supplied the bearings for the 5" gun mounts on various USN surface ships).
Granted, that's a sub system, or a component, and not the whole aircraft but when large amounts of the tax payers funds are being spent, the pressure to "spend it at home" can be profound.
As this is an interim step to the longer term medium lift requirement, and NGR, the arguments made for 'off the shelf' seem to be pretty strong. (Ned's linked article covers them pretty well).
PS: if you know anyone in the business, please don't let anyone convince the program manager to put the Hontek coating on the M blades if the M is chosen. The US Army ended up with a case of buyer's remorse on that one.
As a matter of curiosity: is the VL-60 related to the US Army's UH-60V (putting the M style glass cockpit into L's) or is it a separate thing entirely?)
The VL-60 cockpit is streets ahead again.
Coupling the 4-axis ap and using DVE is not the key - it’s the ability to link ‘everything’ and update ‘everything’ through the mission system which keeps the workload and cost down
no link - the V’s cockpit is dated even though a recent introduction!
The VL-60 cockpit is streets ahead again.
Coupling the 4-axis ap and using DVE is not the key - it’s the ability to link ‘everything’ and update ‘everything’ through the mission system which keeps the workload and cost down
The VL-60 cockpit is streets ahead again.
Coupling the 4-axis ap and using DVE is not the key - it’s the ability to link ‘everything’ and update ‘everything’ through the mission system which keeps the workload and cost down
Yes, the V upgrade is the UH-60M package glass cockpit to replace the steam gages I flew L's with.
Makes sense that the VL digital cockpit takes advantage of a more recent vintage.
I hope it clears the political hurdles, and I also hope that they can manage to keep the defense industrial base warm in Yeovil - keeping that kind of capability and talent 'warm' is important for so many reasons.
Thread Starter
Interesting timing to say the least.
https://www.flightglobal.com/helicop...148796.article
Whitney – whose time with the company dates back to its Westland days – left the business suddenly on 19 May, barely 24h after the Ministry of Defence (MoD) formally launched the NMH contest.
Source: Leonardo Helicopters
Whitney departed on 19 May – barely 24h after launch of the UK’s NMH contest
No details surrounding his exit have been disclosed, although company insiders say it came out of the blue.
Save to confirm Whitney’s departure, Leonardo Helicopters declines to comment on the reasons behind the move. It is unclear who is running the operation in Whitney’s absence.
The apparent vacuum at the top of the company could not come at a worse time: prospective bidders for the £1.2 billion ($1.5 billion) NMH contract have until 20 June to submit a Dynamic Pre-Qualification Questionnaire to the MoD. Invitations to tender will then be issued by 30 September.
London is seeking up to 44 rotorcraft through the NMH procurement to replace the Royal Air Force’s 23 Puma HC2 transports and three other smaller fleets of medium-weight helicopters.
Source: Leonardo Helicopters
AW149 would be built in Yeovil if selected for NMH requirement
Leonardo Helicopters is pitching its 8.5t AW149 for the requirement, which it is promising to build in Yeovil. It will also assemble export examples at the UK facility. At present the AW149 is built at the manufacturer’s factory in Vergiate, Italy.
While the Yeovil plant is not under immediate threat if Leonardo Helicopters does not win the NMH competition, the fact remains that new work would silence questions around its long-term future.
Speaking at the DSEI show in October last year, Whitney acknowledged that a failure to secure work through NMH could make the wider Leonardo group reconsider its investment in the UK.
“My concern would be if our own MoD doesn’t show confidence in the rotary-wing provider which is already established in the UK that does lead to questions,” he said.
Other declared contenders for the NMH deal include the Airbus Helicopters H175M, Sikorsky S-70M Black Hawk and AceHawk Aerospace ML-70 – a pre-owned Black Hawk extensively updgraded with new dynamic components and a Garmin G5000 glass cockpit.
https://www.flightglobal.com/helicop...148796.article
Leonardo Helicopters rocked by sudden departure of UK chief as NMH campaign kicks off
By Dominic Perry25 May 2022Whitney – whose time with the company dates back to its Westland days – left the business suddenly on 19 May, barely 24h after the Ministry of Defence (MoD) formally launched the NMH contest.
Source: Leonardo Helicopters
Whitney departed on 19 May – barely 24h after launch of the UK’s NMH contest
No details surrounding his exit have been disclosed, although company insiders say it came out of the blue.
Save to confirm Whitney’s departure, Leonardo Helicopters declines to comment on the reasons behind the move. It is unclear who is running the operation in Whitney’s absence.
The apparent vacuum at the top of the company could not come at a worse time: prospective bidders for the £1.2 billion ($1.5 billion) NMH contract have until 20 June to submit a Dynamic Pre-Qualification Questionnaire to the MoD. Invitations to tender will then be issued by 30 September.
London is seeking up to 44 rotorcraft through the NMH procurement to replace the Royal Air Force’s 23 Puma HC2 transports and three other smaller fleets of medium-weight helicopters.
Source: Leonardo Helicopters
AW149 would be built in Yeovil if selected for NMH requirement
Leonardo Helicopters is pitching its 8.5t AW149 for the requirement, which it is promising to build in Yeovil. It will also assemble export examples at the UK facility. At present the AW149 is built at the manufacturer’s factory in Vergiate, Italy.
While the Yeovil plant is not under immediate threat if Leonardo Helicopters does not win the NMH competition, the fact remains that new work would silence questions around its long-term future.
Speaking at the DSEI show in October last year, Whitney acknowledged that a failure to secure work through NMH could make the wider Leonardo group reconsider its investment in the UK.
“My concern would be if our own MoD doesn’t show confidence in the rotary-wing provider which is already established in the UK that does lead to questions,” he said.
Other declared contenders for the NMH deal include the Airbus Helicopters H175M, Sikorsky S-70M Black Hawk and AceHawk Aerospace ML-70 – a pre-owned Black Hawk extensively updgraded with new dynamic components and a Garmin G5000 glass cockpit.
"Speaking at the DSEI show in October last year, Whitney acknowledged that a failure to secure work through NMH could make the wider Leonardo group reconsider its investment in the UK.
“My concern would be if our own MoD doesn’t show confidence in the rotary-wing provider which is already established in the UK that does lead to questions,” he said."
Firstly a veiled threat to U.K jobs if Leonardo don't get the contract
Secondly confidence in the product is more important than confidence in the company.
The U.K military has had to deal with sub standard equipment on more than one occasion of U.K manufacture.
“My concern would be if our own MoD doesn’t show confidence in the rotary-wing provider which is already established in the UK that does lead to questions,” he said."
Firstly a veiled threat to U.K jobs if Leonardo don't get the contract
Secondly confidence in the product is more important than confidence in the company.
The U.K military has had to deal with sub standard equipment on more than one occasion of U.K manufacture.
Eric, 'However the Ukrainians are showing that even helicopters designed for the battlefield are extremely vulnerable' is a fairly sweeping statement. There is far more to helicopter employment than making judgements based upon seeing curated (and sometimes falsified) video clips on MSM/SM without context. I would postulate that Russian TTPs are poor, and they are deficient in both DAS/ASE and Night Vision equipment / training. After all, there is no sane reason why you would elect to air assault an airfield in broad daylight if you could choose to go at night (I've briefed to do one twice, both daylight, both 'at the rush' and I'm probably only still here because they both got cancelled….). They are also showing limited ability to plan/fight collectively in complex mutually supporting packages. Based on what we're seeing, and aware that much of it is false/exaggerated, those are the conclusions I would draw. I would be very cautious writing off all helicopters flown by all nations as 'extremely vulnerable'. In Vietnam, the US lost one helo approximately every 7000 hours - which stacks up very well against some of the Fast Movers (yes, looking at you F105 community…) and, similar to Iraq/Afghan, about 50% were accidents caused by CFIT, loss of control, heavy landings etc rather than enemy action. I've seen some figures worked out from OS info which suggests that the Russians are losing a helicopter every 75-100 sorties, and we've also no data on how many are recoverable having been forced down - which, let's face it, not many FJs are. Fit the right kit, train the crews properly and learn how to integrate with Fast Movers / FIRES and helicopters are far less vulnerable than the Russians are making them seem to be.
Chopper, as Crab notes, 658's 'secret' cabs are photographed and tracked all the time by the spotter community, and the moment one makes a flare to a fast roping approach all hope of remaining anonymous is lost. The replacement aircraft could easily be a Black Hawk as, if NMH opt for it, in itself it would become 'non-signature'. I would, however, suggest that as they are UK-based assets, a handful of leased AW169s would be sensible, or even H145Ms in pseudo police / VIP markings if there was a desire to leverage the advantages of the MFTS aircraft and 'blend in' with the Met Police.
Chopper, as Crab notes, 658's 'secret' cabs are photographed and tracked all the time by the spotter community, and the moment one makes a flare to a fast roping approach all hope of remaining anonymous is lost. The replacement aircraft could easily be a Black Hawk as, if NMH opt for it, in itself it would become 'non-signature'. I would, however, suggest that as they are UK-based assets, a handful of leased AW169s would be sensible, or even H145Ms in pseudo police / VIP markings if there was a desire to leverage the advantages of the MFTS aircraft and 'blend in' with the Met Police.