RAF announces Puma Replacement plan
"Speaking at the DSEI show in October last year, Whitney acknowledged that a failure to secure work through NMH could make the wider Leonardo group reconsider its investment in the UK.
“My concern would be if our own MoD doesn’t show confidence in the rotary-wing provider which is already established in the UK that does lead to questions,” he said."
Firstly a veiled threat to U.K jobs if Leonardo don't get the contract
Secondly confidence in the product is more important than confidence in the company.
The U.K military has had to deal with sub standard equipment on more than one occasion of U.K manufacture.
“My concern would be if our own MoD doesn’t show confidence in the rotary-wing provider which is already established in the UK that does lead to questions,” he said."
Firstly a veiled threat to U.K jobs if Leonardo don't get the contract
Secondly confidence in the product is more important than confidence in the company.
The U.K military has had to deal with sub standard equipment on more than one occasion of U.K manufacture.
Part of the reason might be this will be a long haul, and as he's nearing retirement it might be best if fresh legs are there at the beginning.
That the military has had to do with sub-standard kit is true, but irrelevant when discussing Westland; and mostly irrelevant when discussing industry in general, for the simple reason MoD signs to say it is content with the design, development and production, at every stage of the process. Very few companies will risk their own money to deliver what the MoD needs, rather than what it asked for. Westland (as was), in my experience, happened to be one of them. But these days there may be too much influence from abroad. I feel the company has lost its identity, as did (e.g.) Ferranti.
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Leonardo Helicopters is pitching its 8.5t AW149 for the requirement, which it is promising to build in Yeovil. It will also assemble export examples at the UK facility. At present the AW149 is built at the manufacturer’s factory in Vergiate, Italy.
I read it that in case of a UK order for AW149, the assembly line will be moved to the UK so other AW149 orders for export to outside UK will then also be assembled in UK.
Assembly (not necessarily complete production)
Assembly (not necessarily complete production)
Thread Starter
I posted this in the Tiger MkIII thread, but this article provides a rather interesting insight into the relationship between the French Government, Airbus, and their Customers and or partners. It is equally relevant here.
The Berlin Air Show (ILA) will give indications on German orientations in terms of cooperation with France and Europe. Germany will have to say whether or not it remains in the Tiger Mark 3 program
.
The signals from Germany "are not positive at the operational level and at the Ministry of Defense in relation to the priority which would be given to the Tiger Mark 3" underlined the CEO of Airbus Helicopters, Bruno Even. (Credits: Airbus Helicopters)There is no longer any doubt that Germany should announce shortly - possibly at the ILA air show in Berlin - that it will not participate in the modernization program of the Tiger combat helicopter by upgrading its aircraft to standard 3 under prime contractor Airbus Helicopters. Once again Berlin proves to be an unreliable partner for France in terms of European cooperation in the field of armaments. The list is long, too long of German renunciations on programs in cooperation with France launched in July 2017: armament of the Tiger (MAST-F missile now Akeron-LP), program of maritime patrol aircraft MAWS (Berlin ordered P-8A Poseidons from Boeing) and, finally, most certainly the Tiger Mark 3.
If Germany confirmed the decision to release the Tiger Mark 3, it would cause a new legitimate frustration in Paris and above all would not generate confidence in France while the latter has privileged Berlin as a major partner in the field of defense. Finally, France would take a new slap in the face, especially since Emmanuel Macron has invested a lot in bringing out and launching all these cooperations. The next speeches by Sébastien Lecornu, the new Minister of the Armed Forces very close to the President, will therefore be scrutinized in the light of German decisions.
Tiger Mark 3 is not Berlin's priority
The Germans have until around the end of June to communicate to France and Spain their decision to remain in this program. At the Paris Forum held in early June, Airbus Helicopters CEO Bruno Even seemed pessimistic about Germany's participation in this program. Asked if he had had any positive signals from Germany, he replied that "They are not positive at the operational level and at the Ministry of Defense in relation to the priority, which would be given to the Tiger Mark 3". “Nevertheless, I consider that everything is possible because the decision on this type of program is political,” he added cautiously, leaving the door open to German politicians. At the ILA show, the Germans should confirm that they are staying at the dock.
Bruno Even does not "believe in an American option", which is "unrealistic". The whole question is whether Berlin will offer compensation to Airbus Helicopters, naturally favoring the German factories of the manufacturer. Beyond the maintenance and treatment of obsolescence of the current German Tiger, which has not been called into question, will Berlin acquire lighter combat aircraft of the H145 type, or even H135s, from Airbus? Helicopters? It would seem logical. Finally, the skills of Donauwörth will be used within the framework of the Tiger Mk3, independently of the arrival of Germany on this program.
The differences between Paris and Berlin
Between France and Germany, "we have a fundamental subject, which will not necessarily be reduced given the additional means that the Germans will invest in their defense", it was estimated not long ago that Paris. Crucial differences. In France, the armed forces express operational needs, which manufacturers strive to meet. "In Germany, things don't work that way. Defense manufacturers produce defense equipment and the armies buy it or not", we explain to the Tribune. Thus, as soon as Berlin announced the defense fund of 100 billion euros, German industrialists presented their invoice to the German authorities, including one that could supply up to 42 billion euros in military equipment.
In addition, "there is not the equivalent of a DGA in Germany. This creates a difficulty for us French. The lack of symmetry means that we sometimes have difficulty finding interlocutors, identifying them and identify the places of decision-making. It's not easy", we explain in Paris.
Finally, the German government is very sensitive to the concerns of German industrialists. "Seen from France, it is difficult to understand that when an industrialist is reluctant, the German government cannot orient, incite, convince, persuade certain industrialists that it is important to see the problem differently, and therefore to try to provide a solution", we explain in Paris. This is the case with the MGCS program (tank of the future) blocked by Rheinmetall and the SCAF (Future air combat system), blocked by Airbus (phase 1B). This point "shows a significant difference between France and Germany". In the end, Franco-German cooperation is very complicated to launch. Especially since we must add the problems of coalitions, the relations between the Chancellery and the Bundestag, the German institutional rules...
Tiger Mark 3: it's decision time for Germany
https://www.latribune.fr/entreprises...rs-905626.htmlThe Berlin Air Show (ILA) will give indications on German orientations in terms of cooperation with France and Europe. Germany will have to say whether or not it remains in the Tiger Mark 3 program
.
The signals from Germany "are not positive at the operational level and at the Ministry of Defense in relation to the priority which would be given to the Tiger Mark 3" underlined the CEO of Airbus Helicopters, Bruno Even. (Credits: Airbus Helicopters)There is no longer any doubt that Germany should announce shortly - possibly at the ILA air show in Berlin - that it will not participate in the modernization program of the Tiger combat helicopter by upgrading its aircraft to standard 3 under prime contractor Airbus Helicopters. Once again Berlin proves to be an unreliable partner for France in terms of European cooperation in the field of armaments. The list is long, too long of German renunciations on programs in cooperation with France launched in July 2017: armament of the Tiger (MAST-F missile now Akeron-LP), program of maritime patrol aircraft MAWS (Berlin ordered P-8A Poseidons from Boeing) and, finally, most certainly the Tiger Mark 3.
If Germany confirmed the decision to release the Tiger Mark 3, it would cause a new legitimate frustration in Paris and above all would not generate confidence in France while the latter has privileged Berlin as a major partner in the field of defense. Finally, France would take a new slap in the face, especially since Emmanuel Macron has invested a lot in bringing out and launching all these cooperations. The next speeches by Sébastien Lecornu, the new Minister of the Armed Forces very close to the President, will therefore be scrutinized in the light of German decisions.
Tiger Mark 3 is not Berlin's priority
The Germans have until around the end of June to communicate to France and Spain their decision to remain in this program. At the Paris Forum held in early June, Airbus Helicopters CEO Bruno Even seemed pessimistic about Germany's participation in this program. Asked if he had had any positive signals from Germany, he replied that "They are not positive at the operational level and at the Ministry of Defense in relation to the priority, which would be given to the Tiger Mark 3". “Nevertheless, I consider that everything is possible because the decision on this type of program is political,” he added cautiously, leaving the door open to German politicians. At the ILA show, the Germans should confirm that they are staying at the dock.
Bruno Even does not "believe in an American option", which is "unrealistic". The whole question is whether Berlin will offer compensation to Airbus Helicopters, naturally favoring the German factories of the manufacturer. Beyond the maintenance and treatment of obsolescence of the current German Tiger, which has not been called into question, will Berlin acquire lighter combat aircraft of the H145 type, or even H135s, from Airbus? Helicopters? It would seem logical. Finally, the skills of Donauwörth will be used within the framework of the Tiger Mk3, independently of the arrival of Germany on this program.
The differences between Paris and Berlin
Between France and Germany, "we have a fundamental subject, which will not necessarily be reduced given the additional means that the Germans will invest in their defense", it was estimated not long ago that Paris. Crucial differences. In France, the armed forces express operational needs, which manufacturers strive to meet. "In Germany, things don't work that way. Defense manufacturers produce defense equipment and the armies buy it or not", we explain to the Tribune. Thus, as soon as Berlin announced the defense fund of 100 billion euros, German industrialists presented their invoice to the German authorities, including one that could supply up to 42 billion euros in military equipment.
In addition, "there is not the equivalent of a DGA in Germany. This creates a difficulty for us French. The lack of symmetry means that we sometimes have difficulty finding interlocutors, identifying them and identify the places of decision-making. It's not easy", we explain in Paris.
Finally, the German government is very sensitive to the concerns of German industrialists. "Seen from France, it is difficult to understand that when an industrialist is reluctant, the German government cannot orient, incite, convince, persuade certain industrialists that it is important to see the problem differently, and therefore to try to provide a solution", we explain in Paris. This is the case with the MGCS program (tank of the future) blocked by Rheinmetall and the SCAF (Future air combat system), blocked by Airbus (phase 1B). This point "shows a significant difference between France and Germany". In the end, Franco-German cooperation is very complicated to launch. Especially since we must add the problems of coalitions, the relations between the Chancellery and the Bundestag, the German institutional rules...
I bet Poland will like that idea… as they apparently just ordered the 149 as it is made there….
Leonardo Old Tricks
I hear the Italian aerospace company is up to their old tricks at the Air Chiefs Conference. Briefing 1-star DCOM Cap on the 189/149 'sustainability' and 'end-to-end' manufacturing angle (although not sure how 'sustainable' carbon fibre is and how bolting on blades counts as 'manufacturing'?) This is despite both parties knowing the confidentiality limitations once DPQQs submitted. No doubt LM and Hairbrush will be up to similar at FIA - kind of makes a mockery of the MOD's procurement rules.
Is it a case of OEM-itis?
Is it a case of OEM-itis?
I hear the Italian aerospace company is up to their old tricks at the Air Chiefs Conference. Briefing 1-star DCOM Cap on the 189/149 'sustainability' and 'end-to-end' manufacturing angle (although not sure how 'sustainable' carbon fibre is and how bolting on blades counts as 'manufacturing'?) This is despite both parties knowing the confidentiality limitations once DPQQs submitted. No doubt LM and Hairbrush will be up to similar at FIA - kind of makes a mockery of the MOD's procurement rules.
Is it a case of OEM-itis?
Is it a case of OEM-itis?
Not the main question of your post but worth clarifying none the less.
Last edited by Ammo Boiler; 14th Jul 2022 at 22:20.
The UK produced element promised for the 175 seems as vague and woolly as the Leonardo one.
There are, at least, existing helicopter production facilities at Yeovil
There are, at least, existing helicopter production facilities at Yeovil
Is yeovil not busy building more 101’s now they have stopped Italian airframe production line? And also supporting or even rebuilding more old Lynx parts into the Mk10, sorry Wildcat? I hear it’s a cracking airframe, literally!! At least the new engines coming from commanche programme won’t die when oil starved, that killed a few army pilots over the years.
Either way where is the room for producing a black 189? And now they will produce in Poland supposedly then are 3 production lines realistic or would anyone else see the abject contempt the PR machine down there is showing towards our intelligence? Surely just bolting blades and mission kit on like they did with WAH64, another wildly inflated price point political nightmare that was.
Either way where is the room for producing a black 189? And now they will produce in Poland supposedly then are 3 production lines realistic or would anyone else see the abject contempt the PR machine down there is showing towards our intelligence? Surely just bolting blades and mission kit on like they did with WAH64, another wildly inflated price point political nightmare that was.
Originally Posted by [email protected]
The UK produced element promised for the 175 seems as vague and woolly as the Leonardo one.
There are, at least, existing helicopter production facilities at Yeovil
There are, at least, existing helicopter production facilities at Yeovil
With the costs to re-qualify any dynamic or significant structural component following a change of manufacturing location i would be suprised if either product ended up with more than an assmbly line or "just bolting the blades on" in country.
Is yeovil not busy building more 101’s now they have stopped Italian airframe production line? And also supporting or even rebuilding more old Lynx parts into the Mk10, sorry Wildcat? I hear it’s a cracking airframe, literally!! At least the new engines coming from commanche programme won’t die when oil starved, that killed a few army pilots over the years.
Either way where is the room for producing a black 189? And now they will produce in Poland supposedly then are 3 production lines realistic or would anyone else see the abject contempt the PR machine down there is showing towards our intelligence? Surely just bolting blades and mission kit on like they did with WAH64, another wildly inflated price point political nightmare that was.
Either way where is the room for producing a black 189? And now they will produce in Poland supposedly then are 3 production lines realistic or would anyone else see the abject contempt the PR machine down there is showing towards our intelligence? Surely just bolting blades and mission kit on like they did with WAH64, another wildly inflated price point political nightmare that was.
Poland, and I believe a press release not too long ago regarding future 101 production solely in U.K. May have been related to proposed Canadian upgrade but Norway and Italy continue to accept deliveries. Won’t U.K. airframes be re-engined in yeovil too?
Very true that Lynx orders are thin on the ground, but a 300m plus support contract surely means something.
Very true that Lynx orders are thin on the ground, but a 300m plus support contract surely means something.
Poland, and I believe a press release not too long ago regarding future 101 production solely in U.K. May have been related to proposed Canadian upgrade but Norway and Italy continue to accept deliveries. Won’t U.K. airframes be re-engined in yeovil too?
Very true that Lynx orders are thin on the ground, but a 300m plus support contract surely means something.
Very true that Lynx orders are thin on the ground, but a 300m plus support contract surely means something.
RIAT adventures
I attended both Royal International Air Tattoo and Farnborough Air Show over the last fortnight and saw both up close and personal the Airbus Helicopters H175M and Leonardo AW149.
At RIAT i attended the H175M brief as they announced the H175M Task Force consisting of
https://www.airbus.com/en/newsroom/p...75m-task-force
Airbus Helicopters themselves
Babcock
Martin-Baker
Spirit Aerosystems
Leonardo AW149 NMH (the one I flew in a Year ago) performed the first Display of Friday RIAT
So above my photos from RIAT
cheers
At RIAT i attended the H175M brief as they announced the H175M Task Force consisting of
https://www.airbus.com/en/newsroom/p...75m-task-force
Airbus Helicopters themselves
Babcock
Martin-Baker
Spirit Aerosystems
Leonardo AW149 NMH (the one I flew in a Year ago) performed the first Display of Friday RIAT
So above my photos from RIAT
cheers
Farnborough
Then couple of days later on Monday finally made it into the show (big Thankyou to BJ for opening up and the anti BJ / XR what not mob for creating a temp car park in center of the town ) just in time for the Leonardo demo. So here are my photos from my adventures…
Then wandered over to Lockheed Martin for UK Blackhawk brief and walk around of the PZL Melec assembled Firehawk hybrid with ESSS stores on the port side.
Thne wandered over to Airbus chalet for a look see into the H175M
Then wandered over to Lockheed Martin for UK Blackhawk brief and walk around of the PZL Melec assembled Firehawk hybrid with ESSS stores on the port side.
Thne wandered over to Airbus chalet for a look see into the H175M
The UK produced element promised for the 175 seems as vague and woolly as the Leonardo one.
There are, at least, existing helicopter production facilities at Yeovil
There are, at least, existing helicopter production facilities at Yeovil