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Disgusting landing fees

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Disgusting landing fees

Old 12th Oct 2020, 14:44
  #41 (permalink)  
RMK
 
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Originally Posted by aa777888 View Post
This is not entirely untrue for the US. For example, there are three folks checked out by the school I lease back to who SFH my R44 quite regularly. However I can't speak to how the US and EU compare in this respect overall. Certainly there's plenty of SFH fixed wing op's, not 100% sure where the US industry stands on this for rotary wing.
Here in London, I can pick up the phone right now and hire an R44 at about 6 different locations all a short drive from my home. That doesn't exist anywhere in the US, not even near a wealth centre like New York or Los Angeles (where they manufacture them). The US does have fantastic availability/pricing for fixed wing though. I've hired helicopters in FL, NC, VA and CA and it is always a painful process to find an R44 for hire. My last SFH of an R44 in the US was at Total Flight Solutions in Louisburg NC; nice guys but was 2.5hrs drive from where I was actually staying and second choice was even further away (5hrs drive) on the western side of the state.

To compare places places to land (sure you're familiar w/ HeliPaddy app), here's a screenshot of landing spots for the southern UK:




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Old 12th Oct 2020, 15:03
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bell_ringer View Post
Looking at the planning application summary, they seem to have had a healthy number of consulting organisations (roads, environment, airspace, yada yada) to support the application.
I doubt it was a zero-cost/zero-effort process, and from the pics, they have at least spent a little bit of wedge on actual facilities.

Don’t view the helipad planning application in isolation.

£70m (if not more) was spent on the recent renovation of Grantley Hall. Judging by the type of guests that they are trying to attract, a helipad would have always been part of the plan.

https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/life...gbottom-158771
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Old 12th Oct 2020, 15:13
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by B2N2 View Post
Well he’s a managing director and his current type is a Gazelle 342, a turbine helicopter.
Whats the operating cost an hour?
Purchase price?
That’s like showing up in a Ferrari and complaining about having to pay for valet parking.

Its an open forum and he got a dissenting opinion.
Thats all, we can still be friends
So what if he is a managing director and has a 342 Gazelle, his opinion matters, he has worked bloody hard for all he has and good luck to him and he is just pointing out what he thinks. Maybe thats why he has what he has, he does not expect to be ripped off and will not tolerate it. If a hotel or restaurant with a helipad wants your custom and you are either going to eat there or stay overnight then perhaps the landing fee should be waived. Different matter if you are just using the helipad as a drop in point and going elsewhere. It all comes down to do they really want your custom. Looks like Grantley Hall don't and have shot themselves in the foot, I suspect not many pilots/owners will use the place after reading this.
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Old 12th Oct 2020, 15:17
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ShyTorque View Post
Matthew gbr,
My question was not at all meant to be disingenuous. It was actually a valid and sincere question.
But as far as what is relevant to the subject, valet parking of a car (irrespective of how much the car is worth) has absolutely nothing to do with landing a helicopter.
The point here is that a landing fee (or any other type of charge) can be expected in most circumstances. The discussion is whether or not a landing charge is reasonable for the level of service provided. As I said before, I've encountered a landing charge on a school field that was five times as much as this hotel wanted. Totally unreasonable in the view of most folk, I suspect.
Well, what's unreasonable?

Cartier sell high end watches for really high prices, is that unreasonable?
If you don't like it, you can buy a Casio.

School decides to charge a high price. You don't like it, go elsewhere. A helicopter and a landing pad are not an essential service. There are other options.
The local restaurant gets visited by Tom Hanks and decides to charge x5 to sit at the table he sat at. Is that unreasonable? Nope, just don't sit there.

Gatwick charges a large prices to land GA aircraft. How unreasonable. What an outrage, they are certainly not GA friendly! We need cheaper access to Gatwick ...
On a philosophical level, for exampel, the US is GA friendly, which is funny because they are generally a user-pays society and so the subsidising of GA costs at large airports could be argued to place a cost on all other users at large airports who can't afford to own or be involved in GA, and they should be outraged that some percentage of their airfares are going to commercial operating costs which then pay for GA.
Why should the helipad landing fees be really low and subsidised by other guests at the hotel (however small their subsidy).
Why not the school profit a bit from monied up helicopter pilots to help their coffers?

On the other hand, a local state primary school charges a high price for uniforms. That's pretty unreasonable, as education is mandatory, and the costs need to be reasonable for access to all.

Anyway, I think the real test here is to ask some non aviation people:

"My friend the Managing Director in his £300K helicopter is irate because he can't fly into a swanky manor and have a high end lunch for free, he has to pay £150 landing fee."

See what the response is ...



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Old 12th Oct 2020, 15:32
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by helipixman View Post
It all comes down to do they really want your custom. Looks like Grantley Hall don't and have shot themselves in the foot, I suspect not many pilots/owners will use the place after reading this.
Looking at the place, they seem to be after a specific type of clientele, and if the fee is unpalatable, you're probably not in the demographic.

I do find the "how very dare they" attitude amongst private pilots for not having the red carpet rolled out, with a flock of palm waiving virgins to follow them around, somewhat amusing.
In the business world the H doesn't mean helicopter, it's HAVE your wallet ready
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Old 12th Oct 2020, 15:32
  #46 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by matthew_gbr View Post

School decides to charge a high price. You don't like it, go elsewhere.

Gatwick charges a large prices to land GA aircraft. How unreasonable. .
Your logic and reasoning seems limited at best. A school doesn't want a flow of visitors; Gatwick sure as hell doesn't want a bunch of small private aircraft; but if you're willing to pay a silly/punitive price both will accommodate.

Conversely, a hotel with a restaurant does indeed wish to have visitors.

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Old 12th Oct 2020, 15:41
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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Thousands of people in aviation losing their jobs and we’re massaging someone’s ego about £150 to land their own helicopter?

Get real. People are having houses repossessed and selling their cars to make ends meet.

Enjoy your lunch.
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Old 12th Oct 2020, 15:43
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by RMK View Post
Conversely, a hotel with a restaurant does indeed wish to have visitors.
But do they want them all arriving in a helicopter?
methinks not.
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Old 12th Oct 2020, 15:44
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by matthew_gbr View Post
it appears they also spent time, effort and cost on planning application (Harrogate Borough Council 18/04483/FUL, "The use of land for a helipad |Grantley Hall Stephenson Bridge To Grantley Hall And West Lodge Grantley HG4 3ET"
In this case (Grantley Hall), I think that there might be more to it than meets the eye.

After having a quick look at the planning application, GH had applied for 1000 helicopter movements per year, with up to 28 in one day. This application wasn't refused, it was withdrawn.

Therefore, presuming that another application hasn't been approved since 2018, then maybe they have to limit their movements to 28 days a year. Maybe the management of GH are using the high landing fee of £150 to try to manage that number?
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Old 12th Oct 2020, 15:48
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by srjumbo747 View Post
Thousands of people in aviation losing their jobs and we’re massaging someone’s ego about £150 to land their own helicopter?
No, we are discussing something which directly effects our livelihoods.

The 'entitlement' opinions seem to be coming from fixed wing pilots, either private or 747s (for some reason).
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Old 12th Oct 2020, 16:00
  #51 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by Bell_ringer View Post
Shy, how can you quantify what is, ooh I'll risk saying it - reasonable - if you don't know what (if?) costs they incurred?
Looking at the planning application summary, they seem to have had a healthy number of consulting organisations (roads, environment, airspace, yada yada) to support the application.
I doubt it was a zero-cost/zero-effort process, and from the pics, they have at least spent a little bit of wedge on actual facilities.
I don't know market conditions in the area, but what is globally accepted, is anyone that calls themselves a consultant in a specialist area does not come cheap.
All this for what is quite an upmarket location where you're in for 35+ squid for a cocktail and a chicken skewer, so it comes with the territory, I suppose.
The way to quantify what is reasonable is subjective but if it were my problem I'd simply ask what one gets considering the price asked. Although the hotel in question certainly appears to have reserved a grass circle for a helicopter to be landed, next to a building of some sort and laid a few flagstones to the perimeter path of the grounds, I don't see a windsock, a fire extinguisher, or even an 'H' marking. The cost of providing those facilities would probably not have been very high. If I were footing the bill as per the OP's post, I would simply ask if I was prepared to pay a surcharge of £150 on my lunch, rather than paying nothing extra to arrive by Rolls Royce or Bentley. I doubt they will get a large number of takers at the price being asked. Other similar places, as already stated, charge nothing at all, or far less, to land a helicopter provided that the occupants are using the hotel facilities.

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Old 12th Oct 2020, 16:01
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by RMK View Post
Your logic and reasoning seems limited at best. A school doesn't want a flow of visitors; Gatwick sure as hell doesn't want a bunch of small private aircraft; but if you're willing to pay a silly/punitive price both will accommodate.

Conversely, a hotel with a restaurant does indeed wish to have visitors.
Exactly my logic. A hotel with a restaurant doesn't exactly need to have HELICOPTER visitors. And if they do, maybe they don't need to have CHEAP helicopter visitors, and seem to find that on the supply and demand curve, they succeed by charging a landing fee and get the type of visitors who spend and tip well.
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Old 12th Oct 2020, 16:20
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bravo73 View Post
No, we are discussing something which directly effects our livelihoods.

The 'entitlement' opinions seem to be coming from fixed wing pilots, either private or 747s (for some reason).
Affect not Effect
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Old 12th Oct 2020, 16:36
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by srjumbo747 View Post
Affect not Effect
Well done, you. We look forward to your next contribution to the discussion.
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Old 12th Oct 2020, 16:43
  #55 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by matthew_gbr View Post
Exactly my logic. A hotel with a restaurant doesn't exactly need to have HELICOPTER visitors. And if they do, maybe they don't need to have CHEAP helicopter visitors, and seem to find that on the supply and demand curve, they succeed by charging a landing fee and get the type of visitors who spend and tip well.
That logic means that they might get fewer helicopter visitors, full stop. From what has been posted, the management obviously thought they DID need to spend out to provide a helicopter landing point. Surely, to best recoup the cost of providing it, the helipad should have full use. It obviously will not.
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Old 12th Oct 2020, 17:48
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by srjumbo747 View Post
Affect not Effect
So that's where I have been going wrong with my hovering.. Loss of tailrotor Affect
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Old 12th Oct 2020, 17:55
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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If a hotel provides certain additional facilities, obviously each of those required investment. The quality and number of the facilities is a decision for the hotel, the policies that it observes, the star rating it aspires to have and maybe the clientele it wants to attract. Facilities might include a swimming pool, a tennis court, a gym, etc. Generally, these are designed to make the hotel more attractive and the cost of investment is recouped through increased rack rates; the more and better the facilities, the higher the price. Most hotels I've landed at provide very little in the form of landing services; occasionally, a member of staff (typically, completely untrained) will be present in a hi-viz to make sure residents aren't in the way of an arrival/departure, otherwise, it's just a designated area and you're on your own. Charging a fee to arrive, just because a guest happens to arrive by helicopter, is greedy and unfair. The Rolls driver isn't charged to cover the cost of building the hotel's car park, so why should the heli pilot be charged, even if the facility needs extra resources? I've persuaded several hotels (and even the Handpicked group) to waive landing fees and as a result, I use these (read: 'spend much more money') far more frequently than those that haven't.
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Old 12th Oct 2020, 18:41
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by srjumbo747 View Post
Thousands of people in aviation losing their jobs and we’re massaging someone’s ego about £150 to land their own helicopter?

Get real. People are having houses repossessed and selling their cars to make ends meet.

Enjoy your lunch.

Get real, people are buying more homes than those getting them repossessed hence why house prices are going through the roof... this is the basis of economics supply and demand.
Plenty of people are still working and making money and correct me if I'm wrong they can spend said money on whatever they want, so what if they have their own helicopter, so what if they want to spend 100's on Sunday lunch its their money and therefore their choice. The OP wasn't bragging about what he has or hasn't got was merely talking about a landing fee that he felt was unjust.
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Old 12th Oct 2020, 19:35
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by srjumbo747 View Post
Thousands of people in aviation losing their jobs and we’re massaging someone’s ego about £150 to land their own helicopter?

Get real. People are having houses repossessed and selling their cars to make ends meet.

Enjoy your lunch.
Thank you.

I must say, comments here show how little some people know about real world helicopter operations.
Really ?
Why don’t you explain it again for us Chavs?
You’re (probably) flying a turbine helicopter with 4 people on an egotrip to lunch and you have the audacity to complain about 150 quid when your trip (probably) cost you a couple thousand?

An R-22 student on a solo XC complaining about a 15 bp landing fee I would understand and have sympathy for.
This individual because somehow you consider yourselves “special”...no not a thread of sympathy.
None..ZERO.

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Old 12th Oct 2020, 19:47
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by matthew_gbr View Post
That's disingenuous and not relevant. The genuine and relevant question is: with my PPLA, how much would I be prepared to pay for a landing fee at a minor airfield, or a landing fee at the grass strip at the Hall? For a minor airfield, which is in the business of aviation and has a higher frequency of flights, I would expect them to price carefully: landing fees not too high so as to put off people, and not too low so as to go out of business. £150 would be too high. If the Hall had it's own grass landing strip, so I could fly in and park for lunch, I'd consider £150 a not unexpected price for the nature and quality of the establishment. In the totality of the experience, I'd think £150 not great (don't we all want lower prices!) but reasonable and far under the nature of the circumstances.

If I go to the Lanesborough for lunch, whether with my Fiesta, Beemer or Rolls, I choose either the Lansborough's valet parking (likely to be high), or the parking garage down the street (much lower). I understand why for their facilities and other reasons, the valet parking fee is high. I don't bleat blue murder about it because I kind of expect that it goes with the territory. I don't expect to be given free valet parking. It's a free market and basic economics ...
https://www.flymac.co.uk/trip-report...park-airfield/

Charlton Park, Where the Duke actually assists with permissions etc. costs just £20 to land.
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