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So, what do you think?

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So, what do you think?

Old 13th Apr 2020, 23:43
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Robbiee View Post
I'm sure there is.

,...if you sell replacement landing gear.
Outside of instruction...... the risk is too high for the rewards. Think outside the box. I personally feel the Schweizer is better for instruction, but that is another story.
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Old 14th Apr 2020, 00:39
  #42 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Gordy View Post
Outside of instruction...... the risk is too high for the rewards. Think outside the box. I personally feel the Schweizer is better for instruction, but that is another story.
Of course the Schweizer is better for instruction, that's what it was designed for!

,...still couldn't pay me to do an auto from a hundred feet in one!
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Old 14th Apr 2020, 06:51
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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Iím no authority on Autos, always practiced with instructor of course.
On one occasion flying an R22 with fixed floats and an instructor we did some to the water
great fun and gentle touchdown.
R
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Old 14th Apr 2020, 07:43
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Robbiee View Post
Well, frankly I find it laughably disappointing that this forum is more concerned about the surface to which one practices autos than with the altitude from which they are initiated (especially in the little, low-inertia, "flimsy copter" as the 22 is often referred) but hey...

You wanna see how far you can stick your dick into the H/V Diagram?,...fine!,...just don't ask to borrow my 22 with which to do it!

As for doing autos to grass. I always flew around the city so,...

What's grass,...?
Robbie - remember the H/V curve incorporates a delay time to allow for pilot reaction to an unexpected engine failure - in the video the instructor is initiating it so there is no delayed reaction time and I just bet he is lowering the lever already before he closes the throttle. Not quite as crazy as you think he is.

I am very happy having done all my autos to grass since that is what covers most of the UK and the chances of finding a runway to land on are minimal unless you are doing circuits at an airport when it happens. If there is any wind and you are light and well practised, achieving a zero groundspeed touchdown is very achievable which removes the risk of rollover.
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Old 14th Apr 2020, 09:43
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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I came to the conclusion some years ago that the huge majority of the training value in an auto stops at the end of the flare. If Bloggs can safely enter auto, turn into wind, look for and find a suitable spot, adjust the flight path to make it to the spot (or if he can't make that one, pick an achievable spot), make a radio call, warn the pax, arrive at "the gate" with the right airspeed and the right RRPM, and flare the bird to make the spot, he satisfies all the requirements.

Actually plonking onto the ground need only be done a couple of times to demonstrate the experience. In real life, sadly, what is under your skids at the end of the flare is unlikely to be a flat, hard surface. A run-on might end up in tears.

So, a power termination is a suitable ending for the exercise. Especially at night.
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Old 14th Apr 2020, 10:15
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ascend Charlie View Post
Actually plonking onto the ground need only be done a couple of times to demonstrate the experience. In real life, sadly, what is under your skids at the end of the flare is unlikely to be a flat, hard surface. A run-on might end up in tears.
Iím inclined to agree. I canít be the only person to have gone from EOLs on the airfield to PFLs on a nav trip and misjudged the 20í AGL min height...👀
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Old 14th Apr 2020, 10:28
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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AC - I agree with the night option, in the real case its always going to be a lottery with or without NVG.

However, training for a power recovery to a safe hover height ends up reinforcing an incorrect picture for what I think is the important bit of an EOL - the cushion. If you raise the lever too soon, especially on a low intertia rotor, you are going to hit the ground hard.

Equally, you are training for the wrong attitude at the end with a power recovery since the hover attitude and the landing attitude will be different - bouncing hard on the back of the skids will definitely make for an exciting finish.

All I ever emphasised on EOLs was to get the skids level and pointing in the direction of travel - if the landing attitude is right then the chances of survival are much higher.
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Old 14th Apr 2020, 10:38
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Are EOLs done on any in service twins these days?
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Old 14th Apr 2020, 11:05
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by trim it out View Post
Are EOLs done on any in service twins these days?
Nope. Itís prohibited in most ME RFMs.

Leave it to the sim.
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Old 14th Apr 2020, 11:21
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bravo73 View Post
Nope. Itís prohibited in most ME RFMs.

Leave it to the sim.
Thought as much, cheers.
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Old 14th Apr 2020, 14:20
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by meleagertoo View Post
Fascinting to hear all these authoratative N American statements about the hazards of autos to grass- leaving nothing to chance, too much risk of a trip-up, too much hazard etc etc...
I suppose they think that way because as they dont do them they simply don't know the reality...It seems strange that an environment so much more practical aviation minded than Europe can hold such a widespread misapprehension.

In UK and afaik most, if not all of Europe autos are invariably done to grass, never, ever to the hard and we have no problems with it. The tripups our transatlantic cousins seem so fearful of simply don't happen. It's perhaps worth notng that many of our airfields where helo training takes place simply don't have hard runways so even if we did spend out on costly skid shoes they wouldn't be much help.
We also practice stuck pedal and simulated t/r failure to grass as well. Sure, it requires care to ensure you're straight enough on landing but it works and again we suffer no accidents, so why scrape the **** out of runways and expensice skidshoes unnecessarily?

That said, our t/r failure and stuck pedal drills may well be a bit less realistic (or perhaps mpre constrained in the parameters that can be demonstrated) but we do all understand that in the event of a real one we much prefer a hard runway.



And there are reasons to it.
In Europe, most Runways are ridiculously expensive, and airport operators are concerned about skids scratching their precious runway surfaces-to a point where helicopters are not even allowed to touch down on the runway during a normal landing...

Then:
The surfaces in most European airports i have been are smooth-this is because many airports have grass landing strips prepared for fixed wing alternate landing sites as well as glider landing areas, while glider planes need a smooth surface as well.....

And:
Most operators donīt want to invest in skid shoes....


Most US-airports i have been too (not that there are too many, so i am only talking out of my limited experience here) have a runway-thats it.
The "grass area" is just an area left from building the runway, and sometimes very rough terrain....
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Old 14th Apr 2020, 15:06
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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Talking about full down auto-rotations to water with pop out floats. This video is from 2011 but no other information. You will have to search YouTube with "A119 autorotations" and select A119 as I do not have enough posts to include the "url".
I assume it was part of the Koala float certification. @ 7:00 it is cringe worthy.
However to the pilots credit he did not try to fly it away.
- Marcus




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Old 14th Apr 2020, 19:06
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by HBXNE View Post
Talking about full down auto-rotations to water with pop out floats. This video is from 2011 but no other information. You will have to search YouTube with "A119 autorotations" and select A119 as I do not have enough posts to include the "url".
I assume it was part of the Koala float certification. @ 7:00 it is cringe worthy.
However to the pilots credit he did not try to fly it away.
- Marcus
Here's the link with the video
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Old 15th Apr 2020, 02:33
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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Are EOLs done on any in service twins these days
Used to do autos with power recovery in my day way back when. Surprised one day on a check in a 76 when making the pull at the bottom there was nothing there and ended with a very nice EOL. Something the IP did with all pilots at some stage in the 76, no pre brief either, if all looked good he just didn't put the throttles up in the flare. Thought it incredibly brave of him, he only ever gave you the one in your life though.
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Old 15th Apr 2020, 05:55
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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It is psychological thing for a student. If he knows he can put it down on the ground because he has done it loads of times it means he will be less tense and will probably in my opinion do a better job. As for a power recovery with a 300 that i train on there is more chance of overspending the engine than roll over !
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Old 15th Apr 2020, 06:35
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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Huey skid tubes

Bristow used to run a training school at Galehmorgi in southern Teheran for the Iranian Military in the early 70's.
The UH-1H's used to practice EOL's on a strip to the south and would get through a set of skid tubes in 2-3 days until the Chief Engineer (john Snow) came up with the idea of reinforcing the shoes.
New shoes were fitted to a pair of old tubes and then taken to a local welding shop where they would be built up with 10mm of weld; Stellite from memory and that resulted in much improved life.
Tail rotors used to cop a lot of stone damage and the solution there was to fill up the dents/holes with Metalset A4 last thing at night. Part of the preflight inspection by engineers the following morning would involve sanding the filler down to a smooth profile and off she went.
Pilots didn't like this one little bit but flew anyway; I never heard of any blades failing so proving what a great machine the 205/ Huey was!

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Old 15th Apr 2020, 09:36
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by megan View Post
Used to do autos with power recovery in my day way back when. Surprised one day on a check in a 76 when making the pull at the bottom there was nothing there and ended with a very nice EOL. Something the IP did with all pilots at some stage in the 76, no pre brief either, if all looked good he just didn't put the throttles up in the flare. Thought it incredibly brave of him, he only ever gave you the one in your life though.
Is the reward worth the risk if the HP is aiming for a flare recovery to 10’/20’ to find there’s no engine response when they pull the lever and now find (to their surprise too as it wasn’t briefed) they have a bit more height to lose with a decaying Nr?
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Old 16th Apr 2020, 03:32
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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flare recovery to 10’/20’ to find there’s no engine response when they pull the lever
Dunno how you did your power terminations, but our were aiming to finish in a normal 3' hover. Before the flare: in a turbine, we had to have the throttle rolled open to full by 200' agl; in an R22, release the throttle from the detent, small raise of lever to ensure correlator will raise the ERPM too, then lever back down. No surprises there.
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Old 16th Apr 2020, 09:06
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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If it was flare recovery at an airfield it was authorised not below 10í. If it was outside of an airfield then not below 20í. If you went down to 3í then probably not so much an issue if the throttles werenít opened.

Maybe a CRM point though as we always have a throttle brief so either side can call it if the throttles arenít called open by a set height to prevent any unintentional running landings 👀
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Old 16th Apr 2020, 17:19
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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Wonder what was taught elsewhere. Flying the Huey at night or IMC conditions that went right to the ground eg fog we did 35 knot autos and ran it on at that speed. In nine years of Huey, Scout, Kiowa autos to grass we never had any issues, the 35 knot touch downs were in fact fun.
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