RAF go from Dambusters to Dam builders
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Joined: Mar 2011
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From: London/Atlanta
At the end of the day, it was a job well done, great training for the RAF guys that would still be getting paid and training elsewhere, probably broke up their regular routine and they all received well deserved thanks from all.
Why contract a job like that out? it cost the taxpayers nothing... Our Forces are permanently on the payroll to help at anytime for ANY reason...
Why contract a job like that out? it cost the taxpayers nothing... Our Forces are permanently on the payroll to help at anytime for ANY reason...
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From: New Zealand
you guys from the forces aren't going to like hearing this, but having watched a couple of the videos, i think that a couple of AS350s with longlines and good lifting pilots would have kept up, or maybe beaten the chinook. On the videos i saw they took 2 minutes to place the bags that they had transported to the Dam. now if you are doing 6 bags in 6 minutes, and it takes the same time to hook up the 6 bags, that is 4 minutes of hovering around out of every 6 minutes, therefore roughly 1 minutes flight each way.
Any utility pilot worth his pay would have the bag placed in a couple of seconds, so they would be doing at least 2 trips to one of the RAF, maybe more.
Economically there is no way that you can say the RAF doesn't have a cost, the cost would be known, and the cost would be way more than doing it commercially, even though the RAF need to be paid anyway, and it is good training for the RAF to go and do a good job supporting the community.
And yes, far cooler watching a chinook cruising around than a couple of froggies doing laps...
And i don't actually care, as i am pretty sure that they weren't going to get me to come all the way from NZ to do the job, so i am just looking at the logistics, timing and cost of the operation.
Any utility pilot worth his pay would have the bag placed in a couple of seconds, so they would be doing at least 2 trips to one of the RAF, maybe more.
Economically there is no way that you can say the RAF doesn't have a cost, the cost would be known, and the cost would be way more than doing it commercially, even though the RAF need to be paid anyway, and it is good training for the RAF to go and do a good job supporting the community.
And yes, far cooler watching a chinook cruising around than a couple of froggies doing laps...
And i don't actually care, as i am pretty sure that they weren't going to get me to come all the way from NZ to do the job, so i am just looking at the logistics, timing and cost of the operation.
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From: EGDC
Yes, there was so much time available to put the contract out for tender, watch the operators cut each other's throats on price, choose the lowest bidder and then find out they couldn't fly in the bad weather or at night.........
And conveniently ignore that a sad recent fatality with the report in this months AAIB bulletin .....was an AS350 with an underslung load.
And conveniently ignore that a sad recent fatality with the report in this months AAIB bulletin .....was an AS350 with an underslung load.
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From: New Zealand
The weather was so bad that there were shadows on the ground...
lots of jobs are done without going to tender. The military aren't the only people that can jump at a moments notice, it happens for fires around the world, and numerous other operations. And while in the UK the standard call might be to the RAF, in other parts of the world the phone goes and a helicopter can be in the air very quickly...
lots of helicopters crash, and lots of people die. if we eliminated every risk we would never get off the ground, and pretty sure that the Airforce manage to crash just as well as the rest of us...
A true risk assessment on that operation wouldn't have a chinook hovering within a few feet of an extremely unstable dam with all that weight of water behind it. You could possibly say that a small helicopter would be better as it would create far less downdraft and pounding on the dam wall.
You would also say that they should have extended the lines by at least a few meters to keep the machine further away from obstacles.
so please don't continue with the RAF never does anything wrong and civvies don't know how to do anything crap. We are all capable of doing good work and we are all capable of crashing and killing people, quite often through stupidity...
lots of jobs are done without going to tender. The military aren't the only people that can jump at a moments notice, it happens for fires around the world, and numerous other operations. And while in the UK the standard call might be to the RAF, in other parts of the world the phone goes and a helicopter can be in the air very quickly...
lots of helicopters crash, and lots of people die. if we eliminated every risk we would never get off the ground, and pretty sure that the Airforce manage to crash just as well as the rest of us...
A true risk assessment on that operation wouldn't have a chinook hovering within a few feet of an extremely unstable dam with all that weight of water behind it. You could possibly say that a small helicopter would be better as it would create far less downdraft and pounding on the dam wall.
You would also say that they should have extended the lines by at least a few meters to keep the machine further away from obstacles.
so please don't continue with the RAF never does anything wrong and civvies don't know how to do anything crap. We are all capable of doing good work and we are all capable of crashing and killing people, quite often through stupidity...
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From: EGDC
The only people turning this into a civ vs mil pi**ing contest are those who keep asserting that civilian helicopters could have done it instead, rather than accepting that it was done the way it was for a variety of reasons which can be easily criticised with 20/20 hindsight.
And possibly praising the quick response and successful outcome achieved by using the military assets.
And possibly praising the quick response and successful outcome achieved by using the military assets.
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From: EGDC
I'm not diverting the conversation - the thread is about the dam and the efforts to save it which were achieved in part by the use of a Chinook.
Some have had their nose put out of joint because the work wasn't given to a civilian operator who could allegedly do it better/faster/cheaper. Whether or not any of those things are true, the fact it is was done the way it was because the emergency services wanted quick response and they got it - job done, move on.
All this 'I could have done it so much better in my Squirrel' is utter conjecture and pretty damn pointless.
Some have had their nose put out of joint because the work wasn't given to a civilian operator who could allegedly do it better/faster/cheaper. Whether or not any of those things are true, the fact it is was done the way it was because the emergency services wanted quick response and they got it - job done, move on.
All this 'I could have done it so much better in my Squirrel' is utter conjecture and pretty damn pointless.
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From: New Zealand
do you actually read other peoples responses, or do you just keep hammering away at everything.
I have never had a squirrel, and probably never will.
I never said i could have done it better, I'm on the wrong side of the world i would still be tying to get there....
All i did was put across an opinion in answer to a question that someone else asked about smaller machines doing the same job.
i didn't realise that different points of view weren't allowed to be discussed.
i even stated that it would have been better to watch the chinook work than the squirrels
you keep hammering about the bad weather, the sun was out and shadows on the ground...
maybe in the future, read what someone writes and take it in the context of what they have written and not what someone else has written.
And sorry but dragging in a random 350 accident is diverting the conversation.
Maybe you could take some of your own advise. job was done, conjecture was made about different size helicopters doing the same job, opinions were posted, if you don't like seeing different opinions or conjecture about the time it would take for someone else to do the job, move on...
just because someone states that someone could do what the RAF has done, and maybe faster or slower, or cheaper or more expensive, doesn't mean that we are criticising the RAF, just posting an opinion in the inter web to find other opinions.
90% of what is posted on here is pretty darn pointless and a lot of it comes from you!
I have never had a squirrel, and probably never will.
I never said i could have done it better, I'm on the wrong side of the world i would still be tying to get there....
All i did was put across an opinion in answer to a question that someone else asked about smaller machines doing the same job.
i didn't realise that different points of view weren't allowed to be discussed.
i even stated that it would have been better to watch the chinook work than the squirrels
you keep hammering about the bad weather, the sun was out and shadows on the ground...
maybe in the future, read what someone writes and take it in the context of what they have written and not what someone else has written.
And sorry but dragging in a random 350 accident is diverting the conversation.
Maybe you could take some of your own advise. job was done, conjecture was made about different size helicopters doing the same job, opinions were posted, if you don't like seeing different opinions or conjecture about the time it would take for someone else to do the job, move on...
just because someone states that someone could do what the RAF has done, and maybe faster or slower, or cheaper or more expensive, doesn't mean that we are criticising the RAF, just posting an opinion in the inter web to find other opinions.
90% of what is posted on here is pretty darn pointless and a lot of it comes from you!
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From: EGDC
Super F, you said
and then defend yourself by saying you have never owned a squirrel but state
and
That's not conjecture, just bigging yourself up and if the above isn't meant to be a direct criticism of the RAF and their aid to the community it certainly sounds like it both from the content and tone of your posts.
I did read what you wrote but perhaps you didn't proof read it before you hit send.
Did you see the night photo or other videos where the weather was poor before you assert the weather must be good because there were shadows FFS?
you guys from the forces aren't going to like hearing this, but having watched a couple of the videos, i think that a couple of AS350s with longlines and good lifting pilots would have kept up, or maybe beaten the chinook.
Any utility pilot worth his pay would have the bag placed in a couple of seconds, so they would be doing at least 2 trips to one of the RAF, maybe more.
as i am pretty sure that they weren't going to get me to come all the way from NZ to do the job
I did read what you wrote but perhaps you didn't proof read it before you hit send.
Did you see the night photo or other videos where the weather was poor before you assert the weather must be good because there were shadows FFS?
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From: GMT
Super F,
We are both of the same soil, so we are both aware the regulatory regime in the UK is very different to NZ, where the NZ CAA is.... let's say 'light touch' when it comes to RW operations.
That said, looking forward to watching the Wallabies get smashed this evening.
We are both of the same soil, so we are both aware the regulatory regime in the UK is very different to NZ, where the NZ CAA is.... let's say 'light touch' when it comes to RW operations.
That said, looking forward to watching the Wallabies get smashed this evening.
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2011
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From: London/Atlanta
Originally Posted by [email protected]
how well did that turn out for you then?
Rugby Championship: Australia thrash All Blacks 47-26 in Perth
https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/49305836
Crab we are now both totally quilty of been off thread!
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From: EGDC
True, but it was a cracking match
If someone could just knobble Beauden Barrett before the Rugby World Cup, we might stand a chance because they still looked very dangerous ball in hand, even with 14 men.
If someone could just knobble Beauden Barrett before the Rugby World Cup, we might stand a chance because they still looked very dangerous ball in hand, even with 14 men.
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From: Brantisvogan
Originally Posted by [email protected]
True, but it was a cracking match If someone could just knobble Beauden Barrett before the Rugby World Cup, we might stand a chance because they still looked very dangerous ball in hand, even with 14 men.
If someone could just knobble Beauden Barrett before the Rugby World Cup, we might stand a chance because they still looked very dangerous ball in hand, even with 14 men.
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From: EGDC
Google Christian Wade's debut appearance for the Buffalo Bills - first touch and a 65 yard TD. Wade played for Wasps and England in rugby union before trying his hand at NFL.
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From: GMT
how well did that turn out for you then?
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From: EGDC
Very probably - your boys were just as dangerous with one man off the field. Red vs yellow? It's a world cup year and the refs have been told to clamp down on such play - if a Wallabies lock had done the same to a All Black I suspect your viewpoint might be different.
Looking forward to the next match as our local team, Exeter Chiefs, have helped develop Nic White into a world class 9.
Looking forward to the next match as our local team, Exeter Chiefs, have helped develop Nic White into a world class 9.
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2011
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From: London/Atlanta
Another marvelous game today, throughly enjoyed it.... but as we all know anything can happen when the Northern and Southern Hemisphere teams meet....
This one was quite interesting, thanks to Mr Johnson CBE and Mr Wilkinson CBE
Remember this our Southern Hemisphere friends!
https://www.google.com/search?q=Bbq+...Iyr4EcpbVFxEPM
This one was quite interesting, thanks to Mr Johnson CBE and Mr Wilkinson CBE
Remember this our Southern Hemisphere friends!
https://www.google.com/search?q=Bbq+...Iyr4EcpbVFxEPM
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From: New Zealand
Obviously sometimes what is written doesn't come across quite as it was meant.
the only thing i can add is that for the last two RWCs we didn't manage to win the tri-nations/championship in the same year, so i hold out hope for a good result for NZ. I think any of the top 7 countries could win and being in Japan its anyones game.
the only thing i can add is that for the last two RWCs we didn't manage to win the tri-nations/championship in the same year, so i hold out hope for a good result for NZ. I think any of the top 7 countries could win and being in Japan its anyones game.
