Helicopter accident Colombia........
hookes joint's comment applies for sure...no risk of me getting hooked up under you Ascend.
Agree with AC, if you can get the person on the wire to a safe situation (wire cut over water or soft ground at a low height) then do so but crashing the aircraft and killing/injuring several people for the sake of one on the wire isn't a good captaincy decision.
In many situations (OGE hovering outside OEI limits for example) your actions need to be pre-briefed so everyone knows what their priorities are - it will usually be the winch operator who makes the hard decision and not the pilot anyway.
In many situations (OGE hovering outside OEI limits for example) your actions need to be pre-briefed so everyone knows what their priorities are - it will usually be the winch operator who makes the hard decision and not the pilot anyway.
Odd...both AC and Crab immediately start with the person on the wire (they think only in terms of winching/hoisting and not a fixed longline live haul situation I assume) and tell us they would first try to get the person to a "safe" place/situation.
What they seem to overlook is on a Live Haul....you cannot easily jettison the line containing the people....you are stuck with it.
Sometimes I had six to eight Divers, SAR, SWAT, or SpecOps folks dangling under the helicopter.....no way I was going to put my safety ahead of theirs.
Wet suits and cold weather gear does not afford the protection to them as the Helicopter Airframe does to me.
In a single engine helicopter....the most common risk was the ordinary engine failure followed probably by a tail rotor issue.
Crab as usual views life through the prism of RAF SAR and far too frequently lets that color his thinking.
There is life outside the RAF SAR house.
My first duty was always to the people on the line.
That notion began in the late 60's when US Army started using that technique and carried over into my civilian flying.
We accepted there might be times where looking out for the guys on the wire might result in our damaging or even writing off a helicopter.
An example of why we would not consider the "load" to be expendable.
In those days....we wrote off hundreds upon hundreds of helicopters so what was a few more.
What they seem to overlook is on a Live Haul....you cannot easily jettison the line containing the people....you are stuck with it.
Sometimes I had six to eight Divers, SAR, SWAT, or SpecOps folks dangling under the helicopter.....no way I was going to put my safety ahead of theirs.
Wet suits and cold weather gear does not afford the protection to them as the Helicopter Airframe does to me.
In a single engine helicopter....the most common risk was the ordinary engine failure followed probably by a tail rotor issue.
Crab as usual views life through the prism of RAF SAR and far too frequently lets that color his thinking.
There is life outside the RAF SAR house.
My first duty was always to the people on the line.
That notion began in the late 60's when US Army started using that technique and carried over into my civilian flying.
We accepted there might be times where looking out for the guys on the wire might result in our damaging or even writing off a helicopter.
An example of why we would not consider the "load" to be expendable.
In those days....we wrote off hundreds upon hundreds of helicopters so what was a few more.
Sasless - are you getting 'crabby' in your old age? You really don't react well to the tiniest criticism or difference of opinion and appear to have hijacked the moral high ground with another 'let me tell you about operational flying from a war hero' story which has as little to do with the thread as SAR winching.
Crab....merely pointing out that one's life experiences offer us all an individual viewpoint that is generated by what we did in our flying careers.
Some specialized and some were blessed to see a broad array of utilizations that molded our view of things.
Yours is the RAF and particularly SAR ops.
Mine was much different than yours.
Each of us see things through different prisms.....which is normal.
Where you and I differ is I am willing to see mine views challenged and happily respond.
There were no war stories told...not one in my posts on this topic.
I did mention past experiences using a much different method of moving people than RAF SAR uses.
I posted a photo of the USMC doing a similar op.
I then pointed out that in the culture I came up within we placed a higher value on human life than we did airframes.
What is it you really object to that causes you to post as you just did?
Even Gordy posted a photo showing what he does in a normal days work that uses the same method I was discussing.
Are you miffed that some of us do not see the RAF SAR house to be the Go To Centre of Excellence on all matters helicopter?
Ya'll did good work in that specialized area of helicopter aviation considering the limitations you had in some regards.
The UK method is different than other SAR services....but that does not demean the work others do or the RAF...it just makes them different.
I think you doth protest too much.
Some specialized and some were blessed to see a broad array of utilizations that molded our view of things.
Yours is the RAF and particularly SAR ops.
Mine was much different than yours.
Each of us see things through different prisms.....which is normal.
Where you and I differ is I am willing to see mine views challenged and happily respond.
There were no war stories told...not one in my posts on this topic.
I did mention past experiences using a much different method of moving people than RAF SAR uses.
I posted a photo of the USMC doing a similar op.
I then pointed out that in the culture I came up within we placed a higher value on human life than we did airframes.
What is it you really object to that causes you to post as you just did?
Even Gordy posted a photo showing what he does in a normal days work that uses the same method I was discussing.
Are you miffed that some of us do not see the RAF SAR house to be the Go To Centre of Excellence on all matters helicopter?
Ya'll did good work in that specialized area of helicopter aviation considering the limitations you had in some regards.
The UK method is different than other SAR services....but that does not demean the work others do or the RAF...it just makes them different.
I think you doth protest too much.
Sasless - I seem to read far more protesting from you but its a matter of viewpoint.
You seem to think all I have done is SAR in a helicopter, ignoring I have my own experience of fast roping and flying troops locked off on those ropes in exactly the manner you show - it isn't tricky and plenty here will have done it.
I agree that with people on a fixed line or rope you don't have the ability to jettison them over a safe area but lets not pretend that you or they have any other option than to arrive at the scene of the accident if it is a mechanical failure or mishandling as in the thread video.
AC and I simply point out that when you do have a choice then compromising the aircraft safety for the sake of one or two persons on a winch is a different call.
If you take a simple engine failure without the ability to fly away then whether you have one person on a winch or 6 on ropes makes little difference - you are going down and the only thing you can hope for is to give them a gentle last few feet to terra firma (or whatever you are over) and then try really hard not to land on them afterwards. If you have a winch you could cut the wire very late or winch in very fast - if you have ropes then you have no choice.
The assertion that you would always look after the person under the aircraft is an obvious one but you chose to criticise AC for his viewpoint - hardly
since your response was hardly a happy one.
You seem to think all I have done is SAR in a helicopter, ignoring I have my own experience of fast roping and flying troops locked off on those ropes in exactly the manner you show - it isn't tricky and plenty here will have done it.
I agree that with people on a fixed line or rope you don't have the ability to jettison them over a safe area but lets not pretend that you or they have any other option than to arrive at the scene of the accident if it is a mechanical failure or mishandling as in the thread video.
AC and I simply point out that when you do have a choice then compromising the aircraft safety for the sake of one or two persons on a winch is a different call.
If you take a simple engine failure without the ability to fly away then whether you have one person on a winch or 6 on ropes makes little difference - you are going down and the only thing you can hope for is to give them a gentle last few feet to terra firma (or whatever you are over) and then try really hard not to land on them afterwards. If you have a winch you could cut the wire very late or winch in very fast - if you have ropes then you have no choice.
The assertion that you would always look after the person under the aircraft is an obvious one but you chose to criticise AC for his viewpoint - hardly
Where you and I differ is I am willing to see mine views challenged and happily respond.
Thread Starter
Another example of death by dangle.................
https://www.liveleak.com/view?t=kfrtX_1565564145
https://www.liveleak.com/view?t=kfrtX_1565564145
Last edited by Senior Pilot; 12th Aug 2019 at 22:05. Reason: Add YouTube video
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Well I think it is fu**ing dangerous to dangle humans underneath a flying helicopter!
Unless there is absolutely no other way (and there almost always is) its a crappy idea for a whole bunch of reasons.
Even SAR winching is mahoosivly dangerous. Otherwise Crab would not be such a bally hero!
The soft pink stuff should be inside! cos its soft....and pink.
Unless there is absolutely no other way (and there almost always is) its a crappy idea for a whole bunch of reasons.
Even SAR winching is mahoosivly dangerous. Otherwise Crab would not be such a bally hero!
The soft pink stuff should be inside! cos its soft....and pink.
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Well I think it is fu**ing dangerous to dangle humans underneath a flying helicopter!
Unless there is absolutely no other way (and there almost always is) its a crappy idea for a whole bunch of reasons.
Even SAR winching is mahoosivly dangerous.
Unless there is absolutely no other way (and there almost always is) its a crappy idea for a whole bunch of reasons.
Even SAR winching is mahoosivly dangerous.
So is walking across the street if you do not look both ways!
Done both winching and rappelling. If utilizing the proper A/C, kit, crew, operating procedures and having some form of risk assessment (risk assessment- almost threw up in my mouth) in place there is nothing dangerous about any of it.
if I remember correctly, didnt Igor in the early / mid 50's not be the first to try it. And golly darn, I think the guy dangling there survived it and neither the aircraft, crew or procedures were remotely close to today
hmmm...did Iggy do a thorough RA??These aircraft were designed for far more then rig hopping, VIP and taxi ops. They were built for JUST THIS!
Last edited by Scardy; 12th Aug 2019 at 22:57.
These aircraft were designed for far more then rig hopping, VIP and taxi ops. They were built for JUST THIS!
The RAAF developed a procedure in Vietnam for the extraction of SAS patrols from jungle territory, rather than using the time delaying procedure of winching. SAS operated in five/six man patrols and were extracted by them clipping onto 150' lengths of rope deployed from the Huey. They were then lifted to a clear area where a landing could be made and they could board the aircraft in the usual manner. Not without risks, one aircraft had a hydraulic failure, oscillation of the load developed to the point where control was lost through exceedance of CoG limits, the patrol was dragged 200' along the ground prior to the aircraft crashing, all survived without serious injury.
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Not without risks, one aircraft had a hydraulic failure, oscillation of the load developed to the point where control was lost through exceedance of CoG limits, the patrol was dragged 200' along the ground prior to the aircraft crashing, all survived without serious injury.
SCARDY - what you mean is you have done both rappelling and winching...…….without problems. But if you stop and think for just a moment, which is what your risk assessment is for, it will always be safer to have the humans inside the cabin than dangling outside underneath. Like I said, if there is absolutely no other way then...OK. Sadly, in most cases there is another way but the blood and guts brigade, which seem to belong to, never see it that way. That's why we end up with lots and lots of rules. To stop nimrods taking themselves and other people out in spectacular fashion.
This thread started, I believe, from a TV Soap Opera production crew think it was OK to hang people outside a helicopter. I am sure that Company will now a new rule for this!
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SCARDY - what you mean is you have done both rappelling and winching...…….without problems.
As for this scenrio. What's the saying "You just cant fix stupid"
