FAI into Clutha crash opens
Guest
Joined: Feb 2003
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I often wonder whether 2 engines have any real tangible benefit in the helicopter world.
For prolonged transits over 'hostile' terrain I can see the rationale - which was originally airline's reasons for having extra engines - but for non-complex operations, there must be statistics that suggest that B206's have done a lot better in some areas ...
For prolonged transits over 'hostile' terrain I can see the rationale - which was originally airline's reasons for having extra engines - but for non-complex operations, there must be statistics that suggest that B206's have done a lot better in some areas ...
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 927
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From: Germany
I often wonder whether 2 engines have any real tangible benefit in the helicopter world.
For prolonged transits over 'hostile' terrain I can see the rationale - which was originally airline's reasons for having extra engines - but for non-complex operations, there must be statistics that suggest that B206's have done a lot better in some areas ...
For prolonged transits over 'hostile' terrain I can see the rationale - which was originally airline's reasons for having extra engines - but for non-complex operations, there must be statistics that suggest that B206's have done a lot better in some areas ...
And even nowadays I d rather have a spare engine operating over congested areas, hovering prolonged times, day and night.
If a donk fails on you it’s just more relaxing having another one keeping you in the air instead of the need to react instantaneously to recover the Nr, getting speed, deciding where to autorotate to (especially at night with NVG).
How many engine failures had I?
One sputtering engine allowing limited power only, on a Bell206 where parts of the compressor housing went through the engine , several times when I tried to increase power - with passengers on board,
One engine to shut down on a Bo105
One engine to shut down on a BK117
The occurrences on the twins were much less stressful, nearly „non events“, except for the paperwork involved...
So ne question for me, what I prefer....
Joined: Nov 2008
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From: UK
That could probably be just what this pilot and many others were thinking too...
Joined: Mar 2005
Aviation Qualifications: Military
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From: Aus
OR the imaginary world where engine redundancy is an imagined magic cure?
Joined: Dec 2008
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From: N/A
It DOES NOT concur with the EASA data analysis, which gives about 10% of the 20% that are system failures.
Are you including engine accidents for twins there?
Joined: Mar 2007
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From: Bristol Temple Meads
anchorhold
The relatives DO need closure. This isn’t endless inquiries, this is THE inquiry. The AAIB report will be part of it. An inquest doesn’t just look at why the helicopter crashed. It looks at post crash responses, lessons to be learned and more importantly, how EACH and every victim died. It looks at many many things other than the accident report. In other words, it’s vital. So, apology accepted.
Now, why don’t we all listen to what is said over the next 6 months, see if we can learn anything new about what happened and let the families have the inquest that they deserve. It’s not all about compensation you know.........
The relatives DO need closure. This isn’t endless inquiries, this is THE inquiry. The AAIB report will be part of it. An inquest doesn’t just look at why the helicopter crashed. It looks at post crash responses, lessons to be learned and more importantly, how EACH and every victim died. It looks at many many things other than the accident report. In other words, it’s vital. So, apology accepted.
Now, why don’t we all listen to what is said over the next 6 months, see if we can learn anything new about what happened and let the families have the inquest that they deserve. It’s not all about compensation you know.........
DV
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 70
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From: Craggy Island
Looks like the investigating officers have been asking the right questions. Hopefully the armchair investigators who had all the answers on Pprune will now realise there are many more issues that need to be addressed before we character assassinate Dave. The conclusion may or may not agree with the original board, however he will be able to rest in peace, knowing that he has been given a more thorough hearing. Everyone involved deserves that.
Joined: Nov 2009
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From: Inverness-shire, Ross-shire
Yes. These are essentially the sub-sub-sections of section 6. sub-section (1) of the 1976 Act, with (a) and (b) each split into two streams to address the individual deaths and the crash event separately. It fleshes out the statutory purposes of the Inquiry to the next level of detail, almost certainly by the Procurator Fiscal, so that it provides a framework for the PF to present the evidence.
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 346
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From: LOWW
Nice, encompassing questionaire, but there is one important question missing:
4.16 whether the ability to carry out autorotation, flare recovery and landing was compromised by Helicopter Police of Scotland (sp?)
through not providing sufficient opportunities for their pilots to practice real world EOLs in EC135 types, by day and night.
Now, lets see virtual hands from those EC135 drivers on pprune, that actually did practice real EOL in an 135!
And how many of you did practice them at night, w/o rad-alt?
anyone at all?
4.16 whether the ability to carry out autorotation, flare recovery and landing was compromised by Helicopter Police of Scotland (sp?)
through not providing sufficient opportunities for their pilots to practice real world EOLs in EC135 types, by day and night.
Now, lets see virtual hands from those EC135 drivers on pprune, that actually did practice real EOL in an 135!
And how many of you did practice them at night, w/o rad-alt?
anyone at all?
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 927
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From: Germany
But it would enhance the chance to get things right- i.e. switching the EmerShedBus early with the first problems arising, (low fuel warning i.e.), if pilots had a go in a simulator once or twice a year....
Joined: Dec 2007
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From: uk
Simulator time. Training budget.
Certainly saw a night and day different approach to risk management once the police employed us directly. As pilot's provided by a contractor we had the absolute minimum training the employer was mandated to provide. Once we were tupe'd across to direct employment the gravity of responsibility hit home with the police employer and we regular took part in simulator, first aid, fire fighting and dunked training.
Joined: Jan 2003
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
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From: Near the bottom
I was flamed for suggesting this earlier, but as it's a rumour site, I'll try again...
Has there been any investigation into the personal relationships between the souls on board? All the points to be covered reflect technical issues - either physical systems, training, compliance, procedural, etc. but what about emotional factors? It wouldn't be the first time an aircraft was deliberately crashed...
Has there been any investigation into the personal relationships between the souls on board? All the points to be covered reflect technical issues - either physical systems, training, compliance, procedural, etc. but what about emotional factors? It wouldn't be the first time an aircraft was deliberately crashed...
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 382
Likes: 15
From: Out there
I fly a 135 most night shifts. I still don't understand why they ran out of fuel. There are so many warnings, notwithstanding basic airmanship that it makes no sense at all. Mission lock possibly coupled with poor CRM is the only conclusion that I can come up with.
Joined: Dec 2013
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From: Norfolk
toptobottom, RVDT,
While personal relationships and personal issues may be relevant, they are unlikely to be considered outside of professional CRM issues aboard the aircraft. If there were known issues prior to the flight, management will be heavily censured and criticised for not doing anything about it. Close or familial relationships are generally forbidden between officers serving together, although it is not unknown for husband and wife to serve at the same station and/or work together in the same vehicle. The problem is that allegations of collusion will be levelled if an account of events by such officers is disputed.
If such matters are considered, it is likely that that part of the FAI will be heard behind closed doors and the conclusions omitted from the final report unless they point directly to being a primary cause of this incident.
While personal relationships and personal issues may be relevant, they are unlikely to be considered outside of professional CRM issues aboard the aircraft. If there were known issues prior to the flight, management will be heavily censured and criticised for not doing anything about it. Close or familial relationships are generally forbidden between officers serving together, although it is not unknown for husband and wife to serve at the same station and/or work together in the same vehicle. The problem is that allegations of collusion will be levelled if an account of events by such officers is disputed.
If such matters are considered, it is likely that that part of the FAI will be heard behind closed doors and the conclusions omitted from the final report unless they point directly to being a primary cause of this incident.
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,303
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From: UK and MALTA
Evil, the available/released facts would seem to support your statement. However there may be facts as yet undiscovered. Rumsfords Unknown knowns or whatever!
You should realise that the closer people on this thread were to the PIC and/or the type of operation, the harder it is for them to accept the kind of statement you made in post #83.
Logic would dictate the story is most likely more complicated than that.
I would be mindful of peoples sense of decency and compassion. In particular the Hill of Hindsight is no place to grandstand unless you are of course perfect and without potential fault. For example, despite many years of experience in several different operating environments, I never really digested the difference between thermistor/capacitance detectors and the vital role they play in the indicating, caution and warning systems until this accident brought them to light. I suspect the PIC was similarly indisposed but that is just an opinion.
You should realise that the closer people on this thread were to the PIC and/or the type of operation, the harder it is for them to accept the kind of statement you made in post #83.
Logic would dictate the story is most likely more complicated than that.
I would be mindful of peoples sense of decency and compassion. In particular the Hill of Hindsight is no place to grandstand unless you are of course perfect and without potential fault. For example, despite many years of experience in several different operating environments, I never really digested the difference between thermistor/capacitance detectors and the vital role they play in the indicating, caution and warning systems until this accident brought them to light. I suspect the PIC was similarly indisposed but that is just an opinion.