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FAI into Clutha crash opens

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FAI into Clutha crash opens

Old 27th May 2019, 20:15
  #121 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Warrington, UK
Posts: 3,363
No, the only time that it should occur is when the main tank has run dry.
MightyGem is offline  
Old 28th May 2019, 14:20
  #122 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: World's End
Posts: 5
I guess "should" being the operative word.


If you were in the hover or at a low speed surely the remaining fuel in the tank would be aft, leaving the forward pump uncovered, and resulting in the F PUMP FWD being selected off. As the pitch goes down to increase speed, surely the fuel moving forward would now uncover the aft pump, resulting in the F PUMP AFT being selected off. If there was no drill for captions on both fuel pumps and neither of the individual drills tells you that one of those should be turned back on, isn't there a chance that they can both remain off with some fuel still in the main tank?? If its compounded by the reported fuel sensor problems, surely there's a chance of both fuel pumps being off and believing the fuel is in the supply tanks?
Cleavage is offline  
Old 28th May 2019, 15:56
  #123 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Germany
Posts: 759
Originally Posted by Cleavage View Post
I guess "should" being the operative word.
If you were in the hover or at a low speed surely the remaining fuel in the tank would be aft, leaving the forward pump uncovered, and resulting in the F PUMP FWD being selected off. As the pitch goes down to increase speed, surely the fuel moving forward would now uncover the aft pump, resulting in the F PUMP AFT being selected off. If there was no drill for captions on both fuel pumps and neither of the individual drills tells you that one of those should be turned back on, isn't there a chance that they can both remain off with some fuel still in the main tank?? If its compounded by the reported fuel sensor problems, surely there's a chance of both fuel pumps being off and believing the fuel is in the supply tanks?
Thats why you need a rating for flying helicopters, where in the theorie part - which requires a test to pass - things like the fuel system are covered.
(Tanks, capacity, pumps, usage i.e.)
When someone gets captions about the fuelstate, pilots normaly get realy sensitive, checking the fuel state and how much fuel is in which tank, knowing, that there might be unusable fuel, depending on which pump isnīt working.
Knowing, that the engines take their fuel from the feeder tanks does mean, that they are the tanks I focus on.
If fuel isnīt transfering from the main tank, I do something about it or make decisions to asure a safe landing.
We wont get an answer, why this time the obvious wasnīt done or which assumptions led to continuing the flight, despite the warnings.
But I wonīt blame it on the general fueltank/pump setup, which is used in hundreds or even thousands of helicopters worldwide.
(Bo105, BK117 all variants, EC135, EC155) and except from an autorotation, where the crew covered the warning lights with duct tape, I donīt recal incidents which are related to the general setup.
Flying Bull is offline  
Old 1st Jul 2019, 14:07
  #124 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: North of the border in a dark place
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Inquiry back in session today .......
GC47G is offline  
Old 3rd Jul 2019, 13:34
  #125 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Warks
Posts: 69
https://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/...auge-failures/

AIR ambulance pilots who flew the same type of helicopter as the one which caused the Clutha disaster have told how their fuel gauges failed during flight.

Two airmen giving evidence at the inquiry into the accident, which cost the lives of ten people, spoke of getting faulty readings during flights in an EC-135 helicopter which said fuel tanks were full when they were actually dangerously depleted.

William Bryers, a former flying instructor and John Taylor, now a flight lieutenant with the RAF, were working for the air ambulance service in England when the incidents happened.

Captain Bryers said that the gauge gave an incorrect reading “about 30-35 kilos [of fuel] either way” while it was being flown, depending on the pitch of the aircraft.

Flt Lt Taylor recounted a further incident in the same aircraft where low fuel warnings sounded during a flight, despite gauges showing that both supply tanks were still full.

Both were speaking at the ongoing hearing into the disaster, which is taking place at a temporary court Hampden Park before Sheriff Principle Craig Turnbull.

Ten people died when police helicopter G-SPAO fell from the sky and crashed into the crowded Clutha Vaults pub in Glasgow on 29 November 2013.

The pilot and all passengers aboard the aircraft were among the fatalities. The question of how much fuel the aircraft had and what the crew knew about it has been central to the inquiry.

The problems aboard Captain Byers’ helicopter occurred during three different flights he made on 10 December 2013. The pilot saw changes in fuel levels when transitioning from a ‘take-off and hover’ position to level flight.

He said: “I had never experienced that, and it stood out to me. So I made notes to that.

“When taking off there was around 30 kilos less. Moving forward there was about 30 kilos above.”

He said it was not connected to fuel being burned off while the aircraft was in operation, and that the fluctuations were greater than he had ever experienced before.

The incident was reported to Captain Bryers’ superiors, and noted in a technical log.

Details were also passed on to Flt Lt Taylor, who was flying the helicopter the next day. During a flight to Backpool where the aircraft was to be examined, the gauges failed again.

Despite showing the instruments showing full tanks, fuel pump warning lights were activated in the cockpit, causing confusion among the crew.

Flt Lt Taylor: “If they had both been on I would not have lifted. During the climb both came on. I don’t know which one came on first, but there was not much time between them.

“It took me a few minutes for the light to go on in my head, and I said to the paramedic [onboard] that ‘there’s something not quite right here’.”

The aircraft landed safely at Blackpool with the fuel indicators showing that both supply tanks were full, and that the main tanks also had some fuel left, despite Flt Lt Taylor knowing it had to be empty by this point. By this point red low fuel lights had been activated on the dashboard.

The court also heard that a technical “information notice” was dispatched in March the next year by the helicopter’s manufacturer, which explained that fuel displays could be affected by the pitch of the aircraft and give faulty readings.Flt Lt Taylor said this came as a surprise to the pilots, who were unaware if the aircraft’s fuel supply ‘logic’.

He said: “It was quite a shock to learn that ‘logic’. We did not know our own fuel systems. It was talked about a great deal.”

Pilot David Traill, 51; PC Tony Collins, 43; and PC Kirsty Nelis, 36, died along with seven customers who were in the bar when it was struck by the helicopter - Gary Arthur, 48; Joe Cusker, 59; Colin Gibson, 33; Robert Jenkins, 61; John McGarrigle, 58; Samuel McGhee, 56; and Mark O'Prey, 44.

The Inquiry continues.

Last edited by Senior Pilot; 5th Jul 2019 at 01:13. Reason: Add quote: this helps Rotorheads know what you're posting about!
skyrangerpro is offline  
Old 3rd Jul 2019, 19:25
  #126 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Germany
Posts: 759
Nothing really new here.
differences in the fuel state depending on attitude is common - but if you understand, that the low fuel warning is independent from the displayed value the necessary actions are straight forward.
i f in doubt, play it save is a good advice in aviation.
Flying Bull is offline  
Old 4th Jul 2019, 11:28
  #127 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Liverpool based Geordie, so calm down, calm down kidda!!
Age: 56
Posts: 1,969
Don’t believe every newspaper account of what was said
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Old 16th Aug 2019, 16:04
  #128 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Girona
Posts: 230
Final post on enquiry from Scottish Review

Their correspondent's perception of the main points raised in the final few days of the enquiry.

Scottish Review: Maurice Smith
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