Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Rotorheads
Reload this Page >

CALIFORNIA FIRES

Rotorheads A haven for helicopter professionals to discuss the things that affect them

CALIFORNIA FIRES

Old 22nd Nov 2018, 16:37
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: After all, what’s more important than proving to someone on the internet that they’re wrong? - Manson
Posts: 1,492
Crab old chap. Public Use Aircraft. 14 CFR Not applicable -

Not saying that they don't but technically "Civil" Rules don't apply. Pilot licence not required, no airworthiness oversight, etc etc. technically.

You can quote whatever you like but in this case they can choose to ignore it. Again, I am not saying that they do.

As for "pre-landing" checks and 150' calls - well for one you would be constantly in the phase between doing the checks and landing all day long and as for 150' you would need to be above 150' first. What would be the most important
check? GEAR DOWN? I doubt that they even raise it. The advisories would drive you nuts.

I am sure you would adapt after the 50th landing for the day and about 9-10 hours in the seat! Otherwise you would be hoarse from the constant patter and how would you perform the same the next 10 hour day?

Before quoting FTDT - note as I said 14 CFR Not applicable.

As to the fuel comments we dont know what reserve policy they use and as there are probably about 10 places within 10 minutes of where they were to refuel it could actually be very skinny!

I'm with SAS and FED on this one. There are several ways to skin a cat - some just work out better.
RVDT is offline  
Old 23rd Nov 2018, 06:48
  #42 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 7,397
Tees - Yes,

Ignoring simple checks is a really good way to land with the gear up or make a similar human error.

They can disable the Aural Warning Generator which removes the 150' call just the same as we often select the TAWS into Low Alt mode to inhibit warnings but when all of that stuff is on te aircraft to stop one making a c*ck of onesself then you might at least make a visual and verbal check.

Plenty of ways to skin a cat? Sure but those two were not displaying anything most people would recognise as CRM and when suddenly faced with something unusual, as this crew were, you would think some sort of self preservation would get you to do a decent recce of an unfamiliar LS instead of going for the 'suck it and see' variety.

Sheer luck prevented an accident at that first LS.

I don't mean to vilify the crew but the comments about 'heroes' and 'great CRM' were completely unjustified and I wouldn't want. less experienced pilots to hold this up as an example of 'how to do it'.
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 23rd Nov 2018, 06:59
  #43 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: New Zealand
Age: 47
Posts: 374
RVDT, re the fuel comment, i have to agree. i often talk about being out of fuel, but i count my fuel from my minimum upwards. So when I say I'm out of fuel, that just means I'm down to my minimum...
SuperF is offline  
Old 23rd Nov 2018, 08:28
  #44 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: On top of the Longline
Posts: 295
I landed on a beach last week & picked up some hikers who had bailed out halfway through an 8 day walk. I went all the way there & back in a SINGLE ENGINE with no-one to read the checklist to me........please send my medal to my residential address.
heliduck is offline  
Old 23rd Nov 2018, 09:34
  #45 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: After all, what’s more important than proving to someone on the internet that they’re wrong? - Manson
Posts: 1,492
I don't mean to vilify the crew but the comments about 'heroes' and 'great CRM' were completely unjustified and I wouldn't want. less experienced pilots to hold this up as an example of 'how to do it'.
I agree with that for sure. Another point is that we don't know that the guy in the left is even flight crew. Technically SP with a loadie/winch op?

From my point of view using a 139 in these types of ops would be hard work for numerous reasons.

The bigger is better falls over when you still only have one helicopter that can only be in one place at one time.

You can fly them SP but it would be difficult to operate them SP. Crap visibility from the cockpit for a start which you really need good visibility if you are going to mix it low level with sneaky obstacles as we saw.

Hardly ideal.
RVDT is offline  
Old 23rd Nov 2018, 11:14
  #46 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 7,397
RVDT - agreed
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 24th Nov 2018, 01:27
  #47 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: North of 60. South of 42.
Posts: 177
Originally Posted by GrayHorizonsHeli View Post
"Overall....a good effort....but Hero Badges....errr.....perhaps not."

I agree with SASless

I have a high threshold of what constitutes a Hero.
First, only the person who's life was in imminent danger can apply the Hero label.
Second, you need to have put your life in actual danger, with a serious risk of dying or being seriously injured whilst saving someone in imminent danger
If neither the victim, nor the rescuer were potentially going to die or be seriously injured in the very near future, then my definition of hero hasn't been met.
True Heroism is being washed out by giving participation trophies

I agree!!!
EMS R22 is offline  
Old 24th Nov 2018, 11:15
  #48 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 7,397
Tees, further to the OEI question - yes, the 139 is capable of being OEI at less than 50kts or in the hover, but you can only assess that by reference to the PI and your drop down height (if you have remembered to Perf Init the FMS).

No mention of either in the video clip, especially in the critical stages of the approach.

The 50 kts figure in the QRH is clearly a one-size fits all figure valid for the whole of the flight envelope - it also mentions acceptable rate of climb and safe clearance from the surface.
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 24th Nov 2018, 19:51
  #49 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: longwayplace
Posts: 223
the 139 is capable of being OEI at less than 50kts or in the hover, but you can only assess that by reference to the PI and your drop down height
Would not pre flight planning also indicate at what Weight, Altitude and Temperature they might be OEI capable?

One would contend that ye olde Rotorcraft Flight Manual would be able to inform them that, with 2 POB and at close to minimum fuel, they would expect to have OEI HOGE performance
Bomber ARIS is offline  
Old 24th Nov 2018, 20:47
  #50 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: "Deplorable but happy as a drunken Monkey!
Age: 70
Posts: 16,309
If the Operator utilized USFS Techniques....each Flight would have a Load Calc computed for various configurations as part of the Daily Pre-Flight planning. (Yes....I know....it was not a USFS Operation.).
SASless is offline  
Old 24th Nov 2018, 22:19
  #51 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Redding CA, or on a fire somewhere
Posts: 1,670
Originally Posted by SASless View Post
If the Operator utilized USFS Techniques....each Flight would have a Load Calc computed for various configurations as part of the Daily Pre-Flight planning. (Yes....I know....it was not a USFS Operation.).
We do these for every flight in my company.....regardless of the customer, and we document it on our FRAT, (Flight Risk Assessment for the uninformed).
Gordy is offline  
Old 24th Nov 2018, 23:15
  #52 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: "Deplorable but happy as a drunken Monkey!
Age: 70
Posts: 16,309
It is not hard to be professional in carrying out one's daily work is it?

Safe work practices pay off....in lower costs and Customer appreciation for how you go about earning their repeat business.
SASless is offline  
Old 26th Nov 2018, 04:11
  #53 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 7,397
Bomber - yes, if you are only doing one task but where the payload/pax/fuel operating areas are constantly changing you can easily keep on top of it by updating the performance initialisation page in the FMS - then two button presses get you a page with your max weight HOGE/HIGE, dropdown height, endurance speed etc etc - 'tis the modern way apparently
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 26th Nov 2018, 07:27
  #54 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: longwayplace
Posts: 223
Crab - apologies, I was just being arch.

As a 139 TRE, I, too, love the smell of Phase 7 in the morning. However, I always scan the day's forecast QNHs, temperatures, etc. and give myself a conservative overview of the performance expectations of the day/night ahead - an exercise in which the 139 perf data typically promises sunshine, lollipops and stellar OEI performance

I prefer to do this over a cup of tea on the ground, where I often tend to be less dim than when I'm parked on top of a bush, on a smokey ridgeline, with two strange hounds breathing down my neck...

As for their much lauded CRM, I'm happy for a casual cockpit, but we MUST take care of the fundamentals, of which, accurate obstacle identification and acknowledgement and a wee plan to deconflict are crucial.

On a more positive note, the captain's English Mastiff recognition skills are top notch ;-)
Bomber ARIS is offline  
Old 26th Nov 2018, 19:25
  #55 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 7,397
Bomber -
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 10th Jan 2019, 19:52
  #56 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: "Deplorable but happy as a drunken Monkey!
Age: 70
Posts: 16,309
Gordy is my Hero for today!

I asked him to come around and tell us a bit about the aftermath of the big fires and part of what he and some others are doing to help victims of the fires.

I joke with him quite often and give him a lot of stick on a wide range of things....but this time I realized what a great human being he is and how much I value his friendship over the years.

(I told him he had 24 hours to show up....or I was going to tell the story my way and he would have to rebut it however he could!)

Last edited by SASless; 10th Jan 2019 at 20:19.
SASless is offline  
Old 10th Jan 2019, 23:52
  #57 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Redding CA, or on a fire somewhere
Posts: 1,670
Well I guess as I have been called out.....I was chatting on Facebook with SASless earlier and let on some of the things I have been doing recently.

I currently live in Redding, California which is where the Carr fire was, (which I flew on for about 3 weeks), and the Camp fire in Paradise is about 45 miles away. Thousands of homes were burnt and while most people got out, most either left their pets behind or were not able to get home from work and get their pets. I met a group of people who are putting up cat feeding stations near burned homes and setting up cameras to try identify the cats that come to them. I kinda joined and help out when I can. We establish a pattern with a set animal and then set traps to catch it. We are still finding pet cats and re-uniting them with their owners after almost 6 months since the Carr fire.

A friend of mine is "fostering" a cat from the Camp fire. This is "Kitty the Kat", or as I call her: the "attention Whooore". She been fostered since the fire in Paradise, California. She was found outside a burnt house, she has burned paws, missing fur on her back that was burned off and her ears were burned. We nursed her back to health---she still has nightmares occasionally and likes to fall asleep "holding" onto your hand.

Her owner lost her home and has just, (as in yesterday), relinquished control of her as she cannot have the pet in her new place. Due to the screwed up rules, we have to return Kitty on Monday to her "rescuer" who has first refusal on adoption. Monday will be a tough day in the Gordy world, but don't tell anyone......






A feeding station

Gordy is offline  
Old 11th Jan 2019, 00:37
  #58 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: "Deplorable but happy as a drunken Monkey!
Age: 70
Posts: 16,309
Who got the most out of that hand holding thing....you or the other "Attention Whore"?

Gordy refuses to admit it but he really is a softy at heart.

The full magnitude of the damage wrought by the two fires is hard to imagine as these kinds of fires take not just physical items but also inflicts real hardship and emotional harm as well.

I admire those like Gordy who go the extra mile in trying to help total strangers in time of need.

Back during Hurricane Florence that spared me mostly but destroyed so many homes in the area....then was followed up by Tropical Storm Mariah that dumped yet more monsoon amounts of rain....I was involved in feeding some Cats and Dogs when folks had to evacuate their homes.

I even fed some Hogs.....but that had a dual purpose I am almost ashamed to admit.

They shall return the favor here in another month or so.
SASless is offline  
Old 11th Jan 2019, 01:19
  #59 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Redding CA, or on a fire somewhere
Posts: 1,670
I suspect most have no clue the devastation of wild fires. Unfortunately I see it all the time. Here is an article in USA today with 89 high quality pictures of the Carr fire, and yes that is me who flew their photographer:

USA today over the Carr Fire

Same article different news site in case the first one is blocked:

Redding Carr Fire Article
Gordy is offline  
Old 11th Jan 2019, 03:55
  #60 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Redding CA, or on a fire somewhere
Posts: 1,670
Originally Posted by SASless View Post
Who got the most out of that hand holding thing....you or the other "Attention Whore"?

Gordy refuses to admit it but he really is a softy at heart.
I suspect we prolly both got the most out of it. I kinda like the "Attention Whore", not ready to say good bye....

Ancient wisdom....If you wish to find out who loves you more, lock your wife and your dog, (or cat), in the trunk of your car for 4 hours, then let them out and see who is more pleased to see you....
Gordy is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.