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Helicopter down outside Leicester City Football Club

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Helicopter down outside Leicester City Football Club

Old 28th Oct 2018, 20:19
  #101 (permalink)  
 
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GBB...I don't think members of the helicopter community should be suggesting " helicopters are inherently dangerous" or that you "can't recover from a tail rotor failure".Ive been flying helicopters for over 40 years, practised autorotation after a tail rotor failure 100s of times and never been involved in an accident. We should all be talking about how safe helicopters are these days ,not talking them down.
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 20:28
  #102 (permalink)  
 
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Torquetorque. I think the line of inquiry this rumour network is currently going down, and I stress RUMOUR\CONJECTURE is that the tail rotor failed due to it hitting something, either ac backing up and clipping something or for whatever reason a decent post TDP and again tail rotor strike. Pure tail rotor drive failure would be very rare and unlucky- but not impossible.
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 20:42
  #103 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by dingo9 View Post
Torquetorque. I think the line of inquiry this rumour network is currently going down, and I stress RUMOUR\CONJECTURE is that the tail rotor failed due to it hitting something, either ac backing up and clipping something or for whatever reason a decent post TDP and again tail rotor strike. Pure tail rotor drive failure would be very rare and unlucky- but not impossible.
My post was in response to Livesinfiled‘s question. From the video the pilot seems aware of the surroundings and to have positioned and climbed accordingly during take-off. I really cannot see any reason to speculate about clipping something.
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 21:21
  #104 (permalink)  
 
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It looks taking off from a bottom of a bucket IT IS NOT normal operations
- Maybe you should do some research before making that comment. These crews have been picking up the owner from that same place week after week after week for many years so actually it IS normal operations for them,.
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 21:22
  #105 (permalink)  
 
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For those that think a recovery from TR failure in such a situation where you are low (<400ft), climbing vertical or backup t/o profile using lots of power is as simple as entering autorotation and guiding the a/c to a landing site then I challenge you to have a go in a realistic sim. Not at 1000ft doing 60 kts in the day. Make it 200ft with 100% torque at night and for realism throw in a 3 second delay. Let me know how you get on.
These types of operations are normal, of course they are. Helicopters fly these profiles in challenging conditions every day so please don't think this was an abnormal operation.
If you are referring to the poorly powered heavy twin 206 that ran out power then it's not the same as a complete TR failure which is a POSSIBLE consideration here.
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 21:48
  #106 (permalink)  
 
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These crews have been picking up the owner from that same place week after week after week for many years so actually it IS normal operations for them,
I wonder if that was a contributing factor. The wind usually comes from the same place week after week after week. Except this time it didn't.
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 21:57
  #107 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by chopjock View Post
I wonder if that was a contributing factor. The wind usually comes from the same place week after week after week. Except this time it didn't.
But also bear in mind that they had very recently landed.
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 22:06
  #108 (permalink)  
 
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Sliding door

Originally Posted by skadi View Post
It looks like one of the rear sliding doors...

skadi
yea it does, looks like the R/H Side door but looks like the impact hit the L/H side.
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 22:11
  #109 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ShyTorque View Post
But also bear in mind that they had very recently landed.
if you watch the video is shows them doing a 180’ spot turn. Which if they landed into wind would now put them down wind. That is assuming when they landed they didn’t turn.. would need to see all the footage to be sure. However looking at google earth there are some nasty 200’+ wires to the north. Departing into a prevailing SW’ly down the river valley along the open ground would be a much more appealing departure direction.
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 22:11
  #110 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ShyTorque View Post
But also bear in mind that they had very recently landed.

Yes and were seen still facing into wind before lifting. Why on earth do a 180 turn to depart downwind?
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 22:28
  #111 (permalink)  
 
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Just to let anyone know that doesn't realise, the video isn't from last night, you can see the Champions League hoardings in the background. And the 'final moments' video is also not from last night.
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 22:38
  #112 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by chopjock View Post
Yes and were seen still facing into wind before lifting. Why on earth do a 180 turn to depart downwind?
I really can't provide an answer to that. Perhaps the wind velocity wasn't seen as the over-riding factor. It's not totally out of the ordinary to have to depart downwind because that's the only way out of a landing site. For private ops, "Cat A" isn't a mandatory requirement, although it is preferable, for obvious reasons.
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 22:39
  #113 (permalink)  
 
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In one of the pictures of the wreck, correct me if I am wrong, but I think one of the tail rotor blades can be seen and it is in one piece and not bent. From this one could assume no collision with a fixed object and not under power when it hit the ground.

So may be a failure in the transmission. Did anybody else notice this?
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 22:40
  #114 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ShyTorque View Post
I really can't provide an answer to that. Perhaps the wind velocity wasn't seen as the over-riding factor. It's not totally out of the ordinary to have to depart downwind because that's the only way out of a landing site. For private ops, "Cat A" isn't a mandatory requirement, although it is preferable, for obvious reasons.
It is invariably a requirement of a Rule 5 Congested area permission though, Shy, regardless of whether or not you're private.
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 22:43
  #115 (permalink)  
 
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police name all on board

Sky news have published the police statement at 22.09.
May they all RIP.
https://news.sky.com/story/live-leic...crash-11538203
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 22:44
  #116 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by TheiC View Post


It’s not anywhere I can find on their website. Don’t prolong the agony, post a link. Sadly, my own fears have already been confirmed outwith this forum.
https://leics.police.uk/news-appeals/news/2018/10/28/king-power-stadium-incident-five-believed-dead

The five people were on board the helicopter when the incident happened. While formal identification has not yet taken place, they are believed to be Leicester City Football Club chairman Vichai Srivaddhanaprabha, two members of his staff, Nursara Suknamai and Kaveporn Punpare, pilot Eric Swaffer and passenger Izabela Roza Lechowicz.
I beleive the passenger was also a pilot.
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 22:45
  #117 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by horizon flyer View Post
In one of the pictures of the wreck, correct me if I am wrong, but I think one of the tail rotor blades can be seen and it is in one piece and not bent. From this one could assume no collision with a fixed object and not under power when it hit the ground.

So may be a failure in the transmission. Did anybody else notice this?
I thought I could make out all three.
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 22:45
  #118 (permalink)  
 
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It is there.....just read the latest update that lists the names.
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 22:46
  #119 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by OvertHawk View Post
It is invariably a requirement of a Rule 5 Congested area permission though, Shy, regardless of whether or not you're private.
Agreed!.....
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 22:49
  #120 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by chopjock View Post
Yes and were seen still facing into wind before lifting. Why on earth do a 180 turn to depart downwind?
My feelings too. Expediency?
It seems clear they made a towering departure facing downwind, encountering a tailwind component of perhaps 15-20 Kts once they came above the shelter of the stadium roof.
That being the case I suggest that if - and I emphasise IF, a tailrotor failure occurred the scant chance of a recovery from a higher power condtion than a high hover at that height goes from scant to zip. However another more feasible scenario crosses my mind.

It would be very useful to know about the tail rotor authority/control characteristics of this type in high power, downwind conditions at a representative weight. Anyone familiar on type care to comment?

It seems to me that the combination of a sudden onset downwind exposure followed by a spiralling, out of control descent is perhaps more likely to be relevant than the highly unlikely coincidence of a t/r failure just at that critical point. This followed by a rapid dump of the collective in an attempt to recover Nr would fit with an eyewitness reporting a gear-crunching noise (I paraphrase) - perhaps blade stall - followed by relative silence as pitch is reduced.

I can easily visualise a scenario where a tailwind surprises you at 300ft, high power and downwind with the result we've all seen. A bootful of pedal to stop the yaw, a natural grab at the lever to curb the suddden descent and all of a sudden you're spinning, overpitched, Nr plummeting...

I hope to hell this doesn't turn out to be another pressonitis event like Battersea or Gillingham but I'm not holding my breath.

Any input on that downwind tail rotor authority?

Whatever the cause this accident is so in the public eye that helicopters in general are taking vast amounts of abuse (ignorant abuse but damaging nonetheless) in the media and net. If we are unlucky ths sort of hysteria could well lead to irrational knee-jerk reactions similar to those that all but destroyed vintage jet displays and virtually eradicated inland airshows altogether after Shoreham. I sincerely hope my fears are unfounded.

My other feeling is that some of the TV coverage of their departure seems to end rather abruptly. I'd expect the camera to keep rolling until the helo had disappeared from sight so there may well be good, high definition video of the event in the hands of the authorities. Equally I'd be astonished if there are not several amateur videos from outside the stadium that haven't seen the light yet. They may well help.

Last edited by meleagertoo; 28th Oct 2018 at 23:10.
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