Man fires at helicopter (or .... Welcome to "RotorBlast". Do not enter if .... etc)
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 5,197
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
zhishengji751
Hope you don't mind me changing the title of your thread to better suit the contents.
Just in case anyone's forgotten ..... it was story about some lunatic shooting at a helicopter which landed on a vacant lot across the street and picked up a passenger.
The pilot says he made a precautionary landing because a panel light came on. [Yes, of course. Ed.
]The lunatic says he thought they were terrorists. [Yes, of course. Ed.
] Lunatic and pilot are now both "helping police with their inquiries."
Heliport
Lu Zuckerman is very concerned about the scurrilous rumours circulating and has asked me to point out that he doesn't live in the area "and it wasn't a Robinson anyway."
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 88
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I hate to keep bringing up logic, but since the anti-gun people don't seem to be using any, let me ask again. I'll keep the questions short this time:
1) Does anybody really believe that guns can be completely eliminated from society simply by making them illegal?
2) If not, then what method would you suggest to accomplishing the above?
3) What is the advantage of disarming LAW-ABIDING citizens (aside from possibly reducing accidental gun deaths)?
I'll stop now. Never mind the rhetoric, never mind the statistics. For me, those three questions are the crux of the pro-gun/anti-gun issue.
1) Does anybody really believe that guns can be completely eliminated from society simply by making them illegal?
2) If not, then what method would you suggest to accomplishing the above?
3) What is the advantage of disarming LAW-ABIDING citizens (aside from possibly reducing accidental gun deaths)?
I'll stop now. Never mind the rhetoric, never mind the statistics. For me, those three questions are the crux of the pro-gun/anti-gun issue.
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Lone Star State
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Damn, I told myself I wouldn't say anymore...,
I'm only one Dude here, so my answers may not mean much, but I feel compelled to add a little more to this discussion.
It’s a great title, Heliport. You have to admit, you knew it was coming. All one has to do is mention the words; “firearm” and “America” somewhere in the same post and all hell breaks loose. And you’re right, it wasn’t a Robinson, it was an AR-15.
Very good points Flare, I agree, and I don’t have the answers either.
Steve76, I don't know why some goof tucks away an AR for use on neighborhood terrorists. For that matter, I don't know what you base your statements on that the entire American society is FUBAR. I just hope they're not based on what CNN and CNBC have to say. Or, maybe it's that you're just out looking for the black. Too bad, 'cause there's so much white to be found in the US. You ever see what kind of a house a bunch of high school kids can build for a needy family over a summer vacation - ever see the pride in their faces when they hand over the keys to the young mother - ever see the joy in a young mother's face watching her two sons play on the carpet in their own bedrooms for the first time? Unfortunately, that kind of thing doesn't sell does it Steve76? The world would rather hear about the one ******** lunatic who takes potshots at an idiot pilot than the sixteen teenagers who gave up a summer to VOLUNTARILY (means – for free) build a new home for three total strangers. (I've seen it almost every summer since 1989)
OK, Crab, here's my answer to your "why, why, why...?" I own my firearms solely for competition. Protection is only a side benefit. I don't sleep with one next to the bed - don't even keep one loaded in the house. When I go out, I don't "pack" unless its to a shoot and then they're in a sealed, locked chest in the back of the pick-up truck. Sure, I enjoy shooting - I enjoy the precision - I enjoy the competition. The LAST thing I would ever want to do is shoot another human being. Hell, I don't even enjoy hunting. Since 1969 when I started competitive shooting, I've met hundreds of people with similar ideals - it's competition, NOT killing. Think I'm the minority? Head out to Camp Perry some year. But that kind of story doesn’t sell either does it, Crab. The world would rather hear about the one ******** lunatic who takes potshots at an idiot pilot than the thousands of responsible gun-owners who, like me, are in it for the sport and would NOT have charged across the street while laying down grazing fire.
Red Wine, it’s a criminal act in the US to cause the death of another human being while operation a vehicle under the influence of alcohol too. It’s not a question of law – it’s the prosecution of the law breakers. Book someone for 2nd degree murder one day and after the ADA and the defense attorney have spent two nights discussing the case over cocktails at McGillicutty’s, it’s plead out the door at aggravated DUI with a suspended sentence and driving privileges back after 90 days. The point I was trying to make was; a drunk kills several kids it gets blown off. An idiot shoots at an idiot and the anti-gun battle cries come out 5 x 5. I hate statistics as much as the next Dude, but I’m going to throw a couple out for conversation’s sake. In 1998 the NHTSA (National Highway Transportation Safety Administration) found that 38.4% of all fatal highway crashes were alcohol related. They also found that the typical DUI violator commits that offense at least 80 times a year, and, depending on what part of the country you live in, for every ONE violator arrested, there are between 500 to 2000 DUI violations committed. The last one; one the average weekend, one out of every ten vehicles on the road is operated by an impaired driver. So, if ETOH isn’t socially acceptable, why do we tolerate it at all? Let’s get rid of all alcohol. Why is the debate so lopsided? Guns kill – Alcohol kills – do away with both! Yeah right, let’s see how far that gets.
Nick, I’m not against responsible control or abiding by the laws that exist. I firmly believe we should aggressively enforce the laws we have before making any new ones. Try this one on for size; instead of making any new laws, make it MANDATORY that the existing laws are enforced as written. If you get caught, you’re going to suffer the consequences – cut and dried! Get caught with an illegal firearm, the violator gets charged per the letter of the law, destroy the weapon and the judge must sentence according to the established guidelines – no pleas, no payoff, no “good ol’ boy” stuff. Get caught DUI, the violator gets charged per the letter of the law, impound the vehicle and the judge must sentence according to the established guidelines – no pleas, no payoff, no “good ol’ boy” stuff.
OK, that’s it for today, gotta go to work now (yes, Flare, earning my pittance – but, by golly I’m having fun). BTW it was another beautiful sunrise this morning over the mountains, sat on the back porch with a hot cup of coffee, listened to some birds, watched ol’ Wiley Coyote stroll across the horse pasture with some kind of breakfast hanging from his mouth. Life is good, and barring any catastrophes tonight, I’ll do the same tomorrow. And since I’m off tomorrow, I’ll get to see the sun go down while sitting on the front porch – what a deal! Regardless of where you are and what you believe – right or wrong, I hope ya’ll get as much enjoyment out of your days as I do mine.
C Ya
I'm only one Dude here, so my answers may not mean much, but I feel compelled to add a little more to this discussion.
It’s a great title, Heliport. You have to admit, you knew it was coming. All one has to do is mention the words; “firearm” and “America” somewhere in the same post and all hell breaks loose. And you’re right, it wasn’t a Robinson, it was an AR-15.
Very good points Flare, I agree, and I don’t have the answers either.
Steve76, I don't know why some goof tucks away an AR for use on neighborhood terrorists. For that matter, I don't know what you base your statements on that the entire American society is FUBAR. I just hope they're not based on what CNN and CNBC have to say. Or, maybe it's that you're just out looking for the black. Too bad, 'cause there's so much white to be found in the US. You ever see what kind of a house a bunch of high school kids can build for a needy family over a summer vacation - ever see the pride in their faces when they hand over the keys to the young mother - ever see the joy in a young mother's face watching her two sons play on the carpet in their own bedrooms for the first time? Unfortunately, that kind of thing doesn't sell does it Steve76? The world would rather hear about the one ******** lunatic who takes potshots at an idiot pilot than the sixteen teenagers who gave up a summer to VOLUNTARILY (means – for free) build a new home for three total strangers. (I've seen it almost every summer since 1989)
OK, Crab, here's my answer to your "why, why, why...?" I own my firearms solely for competition. Protection is only a side benefit. I don't sleep with one next to the bed - don't even keep one loaded in the house. When I go out, I don't "pack" unless its to a shoot and then they're in a sealed, locked chest in the back of the pick-up truck. Sure, I enjoy shooting - I enjoy the precision - I enjoy the competition. The LAST thing I would ever want to do is shoot another human being. Hell, I don't even enjoy hunting. Since 1969 when I started competitive shooting, I've met hundreds of people with similar ideals - it's competition, NOT killing. Think I'm the minority? Head out to Camp Perry some year. But that kind of story doesn’t sell either does it, Crab. The world would rather hear about the one ******** lunatic who takes potshots at an idiot pilot than the thousands of responsible gun-owners who, like me, are in it for the sport and would NOT have charged across the street while laying down grazing fire.
Red Wine, it’s a criminal act in the US to cause the death of another human being while operation a vehicle under the influence of alcohol too. It’s not a question of law – it’s the prosecution of the law breakers. Book someone for 2nd degree murder one day and after the ADA and the defense attorney have spent two nights discussing the case over cocktails at McGillicutty’s, it’s plead out the door at aggravated DUI with a suspended sentence and driving privileges back after 90 days. The point I was trying to make was; a drunk kills several kids it gets blown off. An idiot shoots at an idiot and the anti-gun battle cries come out 5 x 5. I hate statistics as much as the next Dude, but I’m going to throw a couple out for conversation’s sake. In 1998 the NHTSA (National Highway Transportation Safety Administration) found that 38.4% of all fatal highway crashes were alcohol related. They also found that the typical DUI violator commits that offense at least 80 times a year, and, depending on what part of the country you live in, for every ONE violator arrested, there are between 500 to 2000 DUI violations committed. The last one; one the average weekend, one out of every ten vehicles on the road is operated by an impaired driver. So, if ETOH isn’t socially acceptable, why do we tolerate it at all? Let’s get rid of all alcohol. Why is the debate so lopsided? Guns kill – Alcohol kills – do away with both! Yeah right, let’s see how far that gets.
Nick, I’m not against responsible control or abiding by the laws that exist. I firmly believe we should aggressively enforce the laws we have before making any new ones. Try this one on for size; instead of making any new laws, make it MANDATORY that the existing laws are enforced as written. If you get caught, you’re going to suffer the consequences – cut and dried! Get caught with an illegal firearm, the violator gets charged per the letter of the law, destroy the weapon and the judge must sentence according to the established guidelines – no pleas, no payoff, no “good ol’ boy” stuff. Get caught DUI, the violator gets charged per the letter of the law, impound the vehicle and the judge must sentence according to the established guidelines – no pleas, no payoff, no “good ol’ boy” stuff.
OK, that’s it for today, gotta go to work now (yes, Flare, earning my pittance – but, by golly I’m having fun). BTW it was another beautiful sunrise this morning over the mountains, sat on the back porch with a hot cup of coffee, listened to some birds, watched ol’ Wiley Coyote stroll across the horse pasture with some kind of breakfast hanging from his mouth. Life is good, and barring any catastrophes tonight, I’ll do the same tomorrow. And since I’m off tomorrow, I’ll get to see the sun go down while sitting on the front porch – what a deal! Regardless of where you are and what you believe – right or wrong, I hope ya’ll get as much enjoyment out of your days as I do mine.
C Ya
Onya Desert Dude.
Just wish I could enjoy a morning sunrise in Arizona...
Crab,
I'll hold you to that boet. Sorry to have crushed ya in the rugger the other night...
What ho Spiffiy....
Like Russel Crowe said: "God Defend NZ and Thank God for Aussie...."
...bout sums it up Mate.
Just wish I could enjoy a morning sunrise in Arizona...
Crab,
I'll hold you to that boet. Sorry to have crushed ya in the rugger the other night...
What ho Spiffiy....
Like Russel Crowe said: "God Defend NZ and Thank God for Aussie...."
...bout sums it up Mate.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: West of zero
Posts: 240
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Buitenzorg's letdown
Gentlemen, gentlemen, gentlemen…
I know I shouldn’t get involved in this, but it’s just soooo juicy.
As a born European who now resides in the USA, I too once believed that the vocal and fanatical faction of the NRA spoke for all Americans, and that “guns for every lunatic and criminal” was official government policy. Before my first visit to the USA I fully expected every American to be driving a pick-up truck with at least three rifles in the rack, one fully automatic, the truck bed loaded with ammo. Except for the Miami coke dealers and Sonny Crockett who would wear specially-cut Armani suits so their Glocks wouldn’t cause unsightly bulges and oil stains. Alas, I was to be sorely disappointed.
Nobody has stuck a gun, automatic or other, in my face and yelled “freeze, scumbag” yet, so what should I do? Demand my money back? Even those American friends of mine who have admitted to (not boasted of) owning guns haven’t been able to show them off, since they keep them locked away with the ammo locked in a separate place. Bedside dressers and desk drawers are disappointingly devoid of things that go bang. Americans are just not living up to the hype. They ought to be ashamed of themselves.
In the opinion of just about everyone over here the AR15-toting nutter in Virginia is a nutter, and should be locked up. And guess what? The authorities agree! Mr. Alphabetsoup is looking at serious hard time, and so far I haven’t heard even the NRA defending his actions.
So Europeans, lighten up a little! The average American citizen is far more similar to you than newspapers, TV or Hollywood films would have you believe. Ordinary things don’t sell advertising space or commercial time, do they? Come visit, and be pleasantly surprised, like I was.
As for the pilot who landed in a residential area, if he didn’t clear the landing beforehand with the property owners and the authorities, then he deserves the trouble he will now be in. If he did, then his passenger at least deserves a good kick in the crotch for not having the common courtesy of warning his neighbors about the intended landing.
Having settled this argument to everyone’s full satisfaction (hee, hee, some hopes) let’s go back to arguing about helicopters! 18-degree offsets at dawn, anyone?
I know I shouldn’t get involved in this, but it’s just soooo juicy.
As a born European who now resides in the USA, I too once believed that the vocal and fanatical faction of the NRA spoke for all Americans, and that “guns for every lunatic and criminal” was official government policy. Before my first visit to the USA I fully expected every American to be driving a pick-up truck with at least three rifles in the rack, one fully automatic, the truck bed loaded with ammo. Except for the Miami coke dealers and Sonny Crockett who would wear specially-cut Armani suits so their Glocks wouldn’t cause unsightly bulges and oil stains. Alas, I was to be sorely disappointed.
Nobody has stuck a gun, automatic or other, in my face and yelled “freeze, scumbag” yet, so what should I do? Demand my money back? Even those American friends of mine who have admitted to (not boasted of) owning guns haven’t been able to show them off, since they keep them locked away with the ammo locked in a separate place. Bedside dressers and desk drawers are disappointingly devoid of things that go bang. Americans are just not living up to the hype. They ought to be ashamed of themselves.
In the opinion of just about everyone over here the AR15-toting nutter in Virginia is a nutter, and should be locked up. And guess what? The authorities agree! Mr. Alphabetsoup is looking at serious hard time, and so far I haven’t heard even the NRA defending his actions.
So Europeans, lighten up a little! The average American citizen is far more similar to you than newspapers, TV or Hollywood films would have you believe. Ordinary things don’t sell advertising space or commercial time, do they? Come visit, and be pleasantly surprised, like I was.
As for the pilot who landed in a residential area, if he didn’t clear the landing beforehand with the property owners and the authorities, then he deserves the trouble he will now be in. If he did, then his passenger at least deserves a good kick in the crotch for not having the common courtesy of warning his neighbors about the intended landing.
Having settled this argument to everyone’s full satisfaction (hee, hee, some hopes) let’s go back to arguing about helicopters! 18-degree offsets at dawn, anyone?
SASless
1.2? What is 1.2?? Per 1,000,000?
You have to compare apples to apples. You think society at the turn of last century was much like it is today? You'd be lucky to bump into a person once a week in 1900, yet today with people packing into the cities, it is a much different story. Throw in another variable - drugs - and the cocktail of humanity becomes much more prone to violence.
Flare
No - just as you can't eliminate drugs by trying to do the same. to use this as an excuse is an anti-reason "...Oh well, we can't stop it, so what the hell..." But does not being able to eliminate them give governments a reason to let people pack when they go shopping? (what about trolley rage?)
Well, my answer is no; therefore I don't have a method for eliminating guns completely. I am happy with the way we deal with guns in Australia.
This old crock of an argument. When will you people learn the reality? Everybody is "law abiding" right up to the time they commit their first crime. A law abiding citizen can get drunk. A drunk law abiding citizen (in America) can go to the family gun cabinet and pull out the heirloom 12 gauge to reinforce the domestic argument with Mrs Alphabet - boom. Oops. This is why the death penalty doesn't work - murder is generally not pre-meditated. It is committed in the heat of the moment, in rage, possibly with drugs or alcohol. And when a gun is close at hand, it is so much easier to do the killing.
You will never get rid of guns. They were invented for a reason, and are a part of humanity. If you like shooting (as I do), then go to a range, sign out your weapon and do it. They shouldn't be kept in suburban homes.
The changes in the U.S. homicide rate over time are interesting. In 1900 there were few gun laws. New York had no handgun law and California no waiting period. Guns of all types could be ordered by mail or bought anonymously. And the homicide rate was 1.2, about one-sixth of what it is today.
You have to compare apples to apples. You think society at the turn of last century was much like it is today? You'd be lucky to bump into a person once a week in 1900, yet today with people packing into the cities, it is a much different story. Throw in another variable - drugs - and the cocktail of humanity becomes much more prone to violence.
Flare
1) Does anybody really believe that guns can be completely eliminated from society simply by making them illegal?
2) If not, then what method would you suggest to accomplishing the above?
3) What is the advantage of disarming LAW-ABIDING citizens (aside from possibly reducing accidental gun deaths)?
You will never get rid of guns. They were invented for a reason, and are a part of humanity. If you like shooting (as I do), then go to a range, sign out your weapon and do it. They shouldn't be kept in suburban homes.
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: London, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wow, I go away for a few days and my little post explodes all over the place.
If I may sum up what I'm getting out of the responses -
A lot of Americans (Nick excluded) seem to go to great lengths to defend the state of their society (facts be damned). I"ve always loved Americans for the devotion to a cause, but sometimes it gets in the way of rational thinking.
A lot of non-Americans (self included) can't understand the need for guns in America. A lot of my neighbours and relatives here in the Great White North own legally registered guns. They use them to hunt, they shoot competively, and they collect for the sake of collecting. They don't shoot their neighbours because they act suspiciously, they don't let the kids shoot each other, and they don't commit crimes with their guns. At any rate, not as often as our southern neighbours seem to. Can anybody explain this difference between 2 collateral countries? I can't.
One last thought at the risk of diverging even further from the original topic (sorry Mr. Moderator). I have noticed over the last 10 or 20 years that the "inappropriate" uses of firearms in Canada is sadely increasing. Is this too much US TV being shown here, the same social pressures creeping across the border, or what? I don't know, but it scares the bejesus out of me when I stop and think about it.
Finally, to be fair to the Americans, most of the times I've wondered about the present state of armament of the Yanks I've been talking to are in the 2 fine American cities closest to me: Detroit and Buffalo. Oh, and the 4 years I lived in LA, of course.
If I may sum up what I'm getting out of the responses -
A lot of Americans (Nick excluded) seem to go to great lengths to defend the state of their society (facts be damned). I"ve always loved Americans for the devotion to a cause, but sometimes it gets in the way of rational thinking.
A lot of non-Americans (self included) can't understand the need for guns in America. A lot of my neighbours and relatives here in the Great White North own legally registered guns. They use them to hunt, they shoot competively, and they collect for the sake of collecting. They don't shoot their neighbours because they act suspiciously, they don't let the kids shoot each other, and they don't commit crimes with their guns. At any rate, not as often as our southern neighbours seem to. Can anybody explain this difference between 2 collateral countries? I can't.
One last thought at the risk of diverging even further from the original topic (sorry Mr. Moderator). I have noticed over the last 10 or 20 years that the "inappropriate" uses of firearms in Canada is sadely increasing. Is this too much US TV being shown here, the same social pressures creeping across the border, or what? I don't know, but it scares the bejesus out of me when I stop and think about it.
Finally, to be fair to the Americans, most of the times I've wondered about the present state of armament of the Yanks I've been talking to are in the 2 fine American cities closest to me: Detroit and Buffalo. Oh, and the 4 years I lived in LA, of course.
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Scotch Land
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Interesting Statistics To Think About!
a. The number of physicians in the US is 700,000.
b. Accidental deaths caused by Physicians per year is 120,000.
c. Accidental deaths per physician is 0.171. (US Dept. of Health & Human Services)
(Thank goodness they didn't have old Harold!)
Then think about this:
a. The number of gun owners in the US is 80,000,000.
b. The number of accidental gun deaths per year (all age groups) is 1,500.
c. The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is .0000188.
Statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.
FACT: NOT EVERYONE HAS A GUN, BUT ALMOST EVERYONE HAS AT LEAST ONE DOCTOR
Please alert your friends to this alarming threat. We must ban doctors before this gets out of hand. As a public health measure I havewithheld the statistics on lawyers for fear that the shock could cause people to seek medical attention.
a. The number of physicians in the US is 700,000.
b. Accidental deaths caused by Physicians per year is 120,000.
c. Accidental deaths per physician is 0.171. (US Dept. of Health & Human Services)
(Thank goodness they didn't have old Harold!)
Then think about this:
a. The number of gun owners in the US is 80,000,000.
b. The number of accidental gun deaths per year (all age groups) is 1,500.
c. The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is .0000188.
Statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.
FACT: NOT EVERYONE HAS A GUN, BUT ALMOST EVERYONE HAS AT LEAST ONE DOCTOR
Please alert your friends to this alarming threat. We must ban doctors before this gets out of hand. As a public health measure I havewithheld the statistics on lawyers for fear that the shock could cause people to seek medical attention.
Shy Torgue,
I arrived back in Paradise East to discover your private message to me re: this thread. I would suggest strongly that you make it public, ignore the bashing you will get from Crab and a few of the others on the opposite side of the fence, for what you say has lots of meaningful insights. It for sure explains that even sleeping with an unarmed police officer isn't a lot of good to the victim of a burgalry. You might enlist your police friends to further expound upon the shortfalls of the police and court system in the UK in being able to deal with problem of increasing crime rates. Some of the readers here immediately reject any statistics that challenge their position but maybe some firsthand, subjective input from the people that put their life on the line each day defending the good people of the country, might be accepted more readily than the black and white of statistics.
The 1.2 number means 1.2 events per 100,000 persons in the population. All crime stats in the US are so stated as being per 100,000 population. An interesting read is the FBI's Uniform Crime Statistics.
I arrived back in Paradise East to discover your private message to me re: this thread. I would suggest strongly that you make it public, ignore the bashing you will get from Crab and a few of the others on the opposite side of the fence, for what you say has lots of meaningful insights. It for sure explains that even sleeping with an unarmed police officer isn't a lot of good to the victim of a burgalry. You might enlist your police friends to further expound upon the shortfalls of the police and court system in the UK in being able to deal with problem of increasing crime rates. Some of the readers here immediately reject any statistics that challenge their position but maybe some firsthand, subjective input from the people that put their life on the line each day defending the good people of the country, might be accepted more readily than the black and white of statistics.
The 1.2 number means 1.2 events per 100,000 persons in the population. All crime stats in the US are so stated as being per 100,000 population. An interesting read is the FBI's Uniform Crime Statistics.
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: London, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Crabette;
It is even more alarming if you look at the number of people who have mothers, and the number who eventually die from something or the other.
How long will this madness go on?
It is even more alarming if you look at the number of people who have mothers, and the number who eventually die from something or the other.
How long will this madness go on?
Join Date: May 2001
Location: London
Posts: 528
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In a previous incarnation in the mid-1970s I was a reporter on the New York Post, whose late shift was at that time enlivened by an average of eight murders a night. For a young hack fresh from the UK, it was an eye-opener. A bar-room argument which in the UK might end with a fat lip had a completely different outcome if one or more drunks was armed. I recall a man who awoke to find someone trying to break into his trailer late at night, and who fired nine shots through the door - even had to reload the gun - before finding out he'd killed his son.
New York is much more bucolic now and the murder rate across the US has fallen dramatically, but Crabette's fatuous and misleading figure of 1,500 accidental gun deaths needs to be put into perspective. You have to add to that some 24,000 non-accidental gun deaths annually - the equivalent of a Vietnam War every two years.
The slogan of the NRA, then as now, was "Guns don't kill people, people kill people." That too is crap. People don't kill people, guns do, and not all the jingoistic self-justification in America is going to change that fact.
The only good reason I was ever given for maintaining the status quo was that 25,000 deaths a year was a small price to pay for keeping the meddlers' hands off the Constitution.
What's this got to do with helicopters?
New York is much more bucolic now and the murder rate across the US has fallen dramatically, but Crabette's fatuous and misleading figure of 1,500 accidental gun deaths needs to be put into perspective. You have to add to that some 24,000 non-accidental gun deaths annually - the equivalent of a Vietnam War every two years.
The slogan of the NRA, then as now, was "Guns don't kill people, people kill people." That too is crap. People don't kill people, guns do, and not all the jingoistic self-justification in America is going to change that fact.
The only good reason I was ever given for maintaining the status quo was that 25,000 deaths a year was a small price to pay for keeping the meddlers' hands off the Constitution.
What's this got to do with helicopters?
Typical Press grasp of the truth.....overzealous of the right to free speech so long as it is no one else's and for sure not if the other point of view differs from the preconcieved notions of the hacks. It is a good thing newspapers are so cheap....that way we don't have to expect accuracy and we don't have to hesitate to line our birdcages with them after we clip the coupons and do the crosswords.
Probably the explanations were shortened so as not to be boring to both the teacher and the student....somehow the old saw about leading a horse to water seems to apply here.
When the British solve the problem of gun violence in Northern Irleand, then maybe we can learn how to apply the same principles on our side of the salt water divide. Afterall, the homicide rate in Northern Ireland is 20% greater than the US. How many hundred years this been going on?
Probably the explanations were shortened so as not to be boring to both the teacher and the student....somehow the old saw about leading a horse to water seems to apply here.
When the British solve the problem of gun violence in Northern Irleand, then maybe we can learn how to apply the same principles on our side of the salt water divide. Afterall, the homicide rate in Northern Ireland is 20% greater than the US. How many hundred years this been going on?
A fatal gun accident, particularly when a child is involved, often makes state or national news. This gives the impression that: fatal gun accidents are more prevalent than other fatal accidents, gun accidents are increasing, and civilian gun ownership must be further restricted or regulated.
The reality does not correspond to the perception created by media coverage. Fatal gun accidents declined by almost sixty percent from 1975 to 1995, even though the number of guns per capita increased by almost forty percent.
Fatal gun accidents involving children (aged 0-14) also fell significantly, from 495 in 1975, to under 250 in 1995. More children die from accidental drownings or burns than from gun accidents.
(Gun supply statistics are from the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms, gun accident rates from the National Safety Council).
The reality does not correspond to the perception created by media coverage. Fatal gun accidents declined by almost sixty percent from 1975 to 1995, even though the number of guns per capita increased by almost forty percent.
Fatal gun accidents involving children (aged 0-14) also fell significantly, from 495 in 1975, to under 250 in 1995. More children die from accidental drownings or burns than from gun accidents.
(Gun supply statistics are from the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms, gun accident rates from the National Safety Council).
Join Date: May 2000
Location: US
Posts: 896
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CRAB, you need to get a life. I do not care that you do not desire to own a weapon.
However, why do you give a rat's arse that most Americans, yes most, do own firearms?
America is not your country. You may notice that few, if any, Americans criticize the U.K. or the British in this forum. Why do you feel the need to criticize America/Americans?
SAS and Desert Dude, well said. At our last home in the S. Cascades of N. California, we also rarely locked our doors, and left my keys in my pickup truck, with a 9mm in the glovebox. Nobody ever bothered us, and we also watched out for our neighbors, as they watched out for us.
Now in Italy, people are getting ripped off like stealing is the national sport. My villa was burglarized three months ago, and my new Opel Vectra stolen from our yard six weeks ago.
Oh, I must mention, it is nearly impossible to own a firearm here.
"When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns!"
However, why do you give a rat's arse that most Americans, yes most, do own firearms?
America is not your country. You may notice that few, if any, Americans criticize the U.K. or the British in this forum. Why do you feel the need to criticize America/Americans?
SAS and Desert Dude, well said. At our last home in the S. Cascades of N. California, we also rarely locked our doors, and left my keys in my pickup truck, with a 9mm in the glovebox. Nobody ever bothered us, and we also watched out for our neighbors, as they watched out for us.
Now in Italy, people are getting ripped off like stealing is the national sport. My villa was burglarized three months ago, and my new Opel Vectra stolen from our yard six weeks ago.
Oh, I must mention, it is nearly impossible to own a firearm here.
"When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns!"
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 88
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Check 6 asked of Crab:
We Brits seem to feel that Americans are like petulant, disobedient children whom we must constantly criticize and counsel. Therefore, many feel condescendingly superior to those across the pond, and treat them with a sort of accommodating disdain. This is, of course, silly.
It is reported that 25,000 people die from gunshots in the U.S. every year. By itself, that number looks awful. However, it must be kept in perspective. And that perspective must include: how big the country is, physically; how many people are in it (284 million people); and the prevailing laws concerning guns.
Something like 50,000 people are killed on U.S. roads every year; half of that number involve alcohol, despite ever-tightening drunk-driving penalites. But Americans surely think this is acceptable. How do we know? Easy! In the suburban areas of the U.S., if you are driving and pass a bar you will notice that the parking lot has plenty of cars in it, day or night. Bars are still allowed to have parking lots! Let us admit - come on, we're all adults here - that those people who DROVE to the bar are not in there sipping warm buttermilk or sodapop. And when those patrons leave that establishment, they go out, get in their car and drive. (Oh right, most of them have "only had one," as they'll tell the officer).
If Americans were really, really, really serious about curbing alcohol-related fatalities on their roads, they would simply pass a law that said, "No bar shall have vehicle parking available." But they don't. Restraint of trade? Pish-posh. What's important here, the economic welfare of some businesses or the HEALTH of 25,000 Americans? We see the answer very clearly, thank you.
So what's the deal with guns? Many Americans feel that in this increasingly violent world there is a justified need to own a firearm for personal defense. And, wonder of wonders, the law allows just such ability!
It's easy to point at the number of annual gun deaths (accidental or otherwise). But what can never be known is how many deaths are PREVENTED because someone had a gun that was never fired. It is impossible to count a non-death. Anti-gunners would surely say, "NONE! That never happens!" But that is not facing reality. Perhaps it is not unreasonable to assume that more than 25,000 lives were saved every year because a situation came up which the gun defused or ended without being used. Like I said, anti-gunners would choke before admitting such a thing.
Certain cities have adopted very strict anti-gun laws. We see how successful these laws have been in places like NYC and Washington DC. Makes me wonder, when I hear calls for a nationwide ban on firearms in the U.S., what sort of success such a law would have?
Check 6 also noted: "When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns!" This is a truly scary thought which gets right to the crux of the matter. Why should only the criminals be "allowed" to have guns? And let's be honest, no matter how many laws are passed to prevent it, criminals are going to have guns. And if you have a situation in which ONLY the criminals have guns...well chaps, that is just insane.
America is not your country. You may notice that few, if any, Americans criticize the U.K. or the British in this forum. Why do you feel the need to criticize America/Americans?
We Brits seem to feel that Americans are like petulant, disobedient children whom we must constantly criticize and counsel. Therefore, many feel condescendingly superior to those across the pond, and treat them with a sort of accommodating disdain. This is, of course, silly.
It is reported that 25,000 people die from gunshots in the U.S. every year. By itself, that number looks awful. However, it must be kept in perspective. And that perspective must include: how big the country is, physically; how many people are in it (284 million people); and the prevailing laws concerning guns.
Something like 50,000 people are killed on U.S. roads every year; half of that number involve alcohol, despite ever-tightening drunk-driving penalites. But Americans surely think this is acceptable. How do we know? Easy! In the suburban areas of the U.S., if you are driving and pass a bar you will notice that the parking lot has plenty of cars in it, day or night. Bars are still allowed to have parking lots! Let us admit - come on, we're all adults here - that those people who DROVE to the bar are not in there sipping warm buttermilk or sodapop. And when those patrons leave that establishment, they go out, get in their car and drive. (Oh right, most of them have "only had one," as they'll tell the officer).
If Americans were really, really, really serious about curbing alcohol-related fatalities on their roads, they would simply pass a law that said, "No bar shall have vehicle parking available." But they don't. Restraint of trade? Pish-posh. What's important here, the economic welfare of some businesses or the HEALTH of 25,000 Americans? We see the answer very clearly, thank you.
So what's the deal with guns? Many Americans feel that in this increasingly violent world there is a justified need to own a firearm for personal defense. And, wonder of wonders, the law allows just such ability!
It's easy to point at the number of annual gun deaths (accidental or otherwise). But what can never be known is how many deaths are PREVENTED because someone had a gun that was never fired. It is impossible to count a non-death. Anti-gunners would surely say, "NONE! That never happens!" But that is not facing reality. Perhaps it is not unreasonable to assume that more than 25,000 lives were saved every year because a situation came up which the gun defused or ended without being used. Like I said, anti-gunners would choke before admitting such a thing.
Certain cities have adopted very strict anti-gun laws. We see how successful these laws have been in places like NYC and Washington DC. Makes me wonder, when I hear calls for a nationwide ban on firearms in the U.S., what sort of success such a law would have?
Check 6 also noted: "When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns!" This is a truly scary thought which gets right to the crux of the matter. Why should only the criminals be "allowed" to have guns? And let's be honest, no matter how many laws are passed to prevent it, criminals are going to have guns. And if you have a situation in which ONLY the criminals have guns...well chaps, that is just insane.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 5,197
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"You may notice that few, if any, Americans criticize the U.K. or the British in this forum. Why do you feel the need to criticize America/Americans?
If it's any comfort, this forum is by no means the worst.
As to why people feel the need to do so - I have no idea. It's always baffled me.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: A big comfy armchair
Posts: 73
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
When the British solve the problem of gun violence in Northern Irleand, then maybe we can learn how to apply the same principles on our side of the salt water divide. Afterall, the homicide rate in Northern Ireland is 20% greater than the US. How many hundred years this been going on?
One of the most significant sources for the firearms that cause so much grief in the province has been the United States. That the US is a favoured shopping mall for the lunatics and fanatics on both sides of the divide in Northern Ireland is not because of local sympathies with the aforementioned nutters (although this does play a role), but because they're easy to get hold of and cheap.
How do we solve the pronblem of gun violence in NI - no idea. Better men than me have tried and failed to find a solution. How do we limit it? Well a good start would be restricting the opportunities to walk into a US store and buying a Minimi or a Browning .50 sniper weapon.
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 88
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"attackattackattack" sniped:
Talk about an outrageous troll of a post!
Somehow, I doubt that people in N.Ireland are being armed on a large scale by individual sympathetic U.S. citizens walking into U.S. gun stores and buying assault rifles and sending them overseas. No, the guns are coming in bulk from...somewhere. The U.S.? Maybe. But if they're being bought in bulk, again, it's not by individuals purchasing them from the local gun store. How naive can you possibly be?
Problem is, guns are made all over the world. Stop the production in the U.S. and South American production will ramp up to meet the demand. Or Italy. Or Germany. Blaming the U.S. for the "gun problem" in N.Ireland is just bloody preposterous.
"attackattackattack" says that to find a solution for the N.I. situation, better men than he have tried? I don't doubt that for one second. Back under the bridge, you troll!
How do we solve the problem of gun violence in NI - no idea. Better men than me have tried and failed to find a solution. How do we limit it? Well a good start would be restricting the opportunities to walk into a US store and buying a Minimi or a Browning .50 sniper weapon.
Talk about an outrageous troll of a post!
Somehow, I doubt that people in N.Ireland are being armed on a large scale by individual sympathetic U.S. citizens walking into U.S. gun stores and buying assault rifles and sending them overseas. No, the guns are coming in bulk from...somewhere. The U.S.? Maybe. But if they're being bought in bulk, again, it's not by individuals purchasing them from the local gun store. How naive can you possibly be?
Problem is, guns are made all over the world. Stop the production in the U.S. and South American production will ramp up to meet the demand. Or Italy. Or Germany. Blaming the U.S. for the "gun problem" in N.Ireland is just bloody preposterous.
"attackattackattack" says that to find a solution for the N.I. situation, better men than he have tried? I don't doubt that for one second. Back under the bridge, you troll!