Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Rotorheads
Reload this Page >

Bristow S76 Ditched in Nigeria today Feb 3 2016

Rotorheads A haven for helicopter professionals to discuss the things that affect them

Bristow S76 Ditched in Nigeria today Feb 3 2016

Old 17th Feb 2016, 02:45
  #221 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Wanaka, NZ
Posts: 2,569
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
I fail to understand how crew decision making in this accident may have been influenced by the previous accident.

Unless I'm mistaken, the crew of the 5N-BGD accident had no prior indication of anything wrong. They were just flying along in the cruise and instantly the helicopter went wildly out of control and 12 seconds later crashed. The investigators quickly worked out what caused the crash, and the servo input control rods of every S76 world wide were inspected to make sure they were as they should be.

This time around the crew had symptoms to give them some clues as to possible causes, plenty of time to think about it and take action, and a helicopter that was flying under control, all-be-it with some AFCS induced yaw twitching (from what we understand). I would have thought the crew would have been comforted by the knowledge that the aircraft had been thoroughly examined and what caused the last crash was unlikely to be playing out again (because the symptoms were different and the inspections had been done).

Dunno. Again, we shall wait.

Last edited by gulliBell; 17th Feb 2016 at 03:47. Reason: spelling
gulliBell is offline  
Old 17th Feb 2016, 03:16
  #222 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: On land
Posts: 249
Received 30 Likes on 14 Posts
Panic sets in
I think the mistake you're making is transposing your level of experience and ability into that cockpit.
Nescafe is offline  
Old 17th Feb 2016, 04:05
  #223 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Ban Don Ling
Posts: 244
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Tasspook ...... my comment about big bucks was directed at Revolutionary only.
tistisnot is offline  
Old 17th Feb 2016, 05:26
  #224 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Wanaka, NZ
Posts: 2,569
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
$8000 USD net/month salary, seriously ?

Where does this white boy sign up?
gulliBell is offline  
Old 17th Feb 2016, 06:10
  #225 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: On land
Posts: 249
Received 30 Likes on 14 Posts
>US$10000 net per month, for a white boy..
Nescafe is offline  
Old 17th Feb 2016, 06:23
  #226 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: UK and MALTA
Age: 61
Posts: 1,297
Likes: 0
Received 18 Likes on 4 Posts
It's a bit of a shame that this Captain has been condemned before any official version of events are released.
There have been plenty of "white" boys (and a girl) that have put a helicopter in the sea when it ought not to be there. Picking on this Captain due to her nationality is not fair or right.

Even if the official reports states that there was no real need to ditch ( which it never will), at least the Captain made a decision based on what both crew were experiencing and that is alright by me. Better that than to continue until the helicopter falls apart, which has also happened both there and in Newfoundland.

Gullibell, I completely disagree with you that the fatal 76 accident would not be on the minds and influence this crew if they had control problems. But I guess you can make these one dimensional statements from the comfort of your own armchair.
DOUBLE BOGEY is offline  
Old 17th Feb 2016, 07:20
  #227 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: In the middle of freakin nowhere
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
tistisnot

I know, I just liked the way you phrased your response.

DOUBLE BOGEY

Nobody is condemning anyone, or at least they shouldn't be. But, in the wake of this particular event, it is quite likely there are going to be some very difficult questions asked to not only some individuals, but the organisation itself.

As to whether the previous accident influenced this crew's decision to ditch, I'll save my thoughts on that for later, because that potentially opens up a whole other can of worms.
tasspook is offline  
Old 17th Feb 2016, 08:34
  #228 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Cornwall
Age: 76
Posts: 1,307
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Training, what training....???

I have said before on PP that I am not happy with the sample of the global pilot workforce that have passed through my hands. Whether or not this sample of close to 400 AW139 pilots is statistically significant is not for me to say. All I can comment on is the facts as I see them.

The vast majority of those pilots had what is necessary to be called competent, that is to say their potential to be competent was detectable but their lack of a decent foundation and a testing regime lacking rigour had not enabled them to realise this potential.

The situation was characterised by an ability to do the 'day job' to a high enough standard to escape censure but when things went wrong or the task varied from the norm their weaknesses were exposed.

We should not condemn any of our community for failings in their preparation for the tasks they take on. Any failings must be laid at the door of the system that designs and regulates their training. We are all capable of making such mistakes and I frequently reflect on the many I have made in what is a career approaching 50 years. What you need after making a mistake is support and understanding but sometimes our prejudices get in the way of delivering that degree of empathy. If this young woman made a mistake she can be happy that there were no lives lost as a result. There are many out there who do not have such consolation.

G.
Geoffersincornwall is offline  
Old 17th Feb 2016, 08:55
  #229 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Den Haag
Age: 57
Posts: 6,392
Received 387 Likes on 223 Posts
The situation was characterised by an ability to do the 'day job' to a high enough standard to escape censure but when things went wrong or the task varied from the norm their weaknesses were exposed.
Commonly characterised by the question "6,000 hours of experience, or one hour of experience done 6,000 times......"
212man is online now  
Old 17th Feb 2016, 09:01
  #230 (permalink)  
cpt
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: 1500' AMSL
Age: 68
Posts: 412
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Hi Gullibell,

Once again, if something makes me believe that the integrity of the basic main rotor flight controls is affected (rigging or unknown hydraulic malfunction) I would consider a safe forced ditching as long as I can keep the control of the flight. The recent accidents history would certainly help me to take this decision.
The yaw control is less critical (except a drive shaft failure of course) and would rather lead me to decide a running landing on a long runway.

As 76 flyers, I hope we'll quickly know what has happened, if only for the sake of the return of experience.
cpt is offline  
Old 17th Feb 2016, 09:12
  #231 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Wanaka, NZ
Posts: 2,569
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
@cpt. No argument there. But having seen every AFCS malfunction many times over in a C/C+/C++ I've never felt the need to do anything other than what's printed in the ECL.

@DOUBLE BOGEY. Yes, for sure, one dimensional comfort of my armchair no doubt, and a liberal dose of crystal ball gazing as well. But if I was in the cockpit at the time then obviously I'd be in the less comfortable 3 dimensional space, and I'd have a more informed opinion.

But I'm not paid the big bucks of an offshore PIC. I just live off a few meagre crumbs that might happen to fall off the feasting table. But it is my job to make sure those offshore PIC are competent to do what they do for the next 12 months of their career. Granted, some of the possible malfunctions are not in the ECL. That's where systems knowledge and experience and problem solving skills comes into the equation for those on the big bucks charged with the responsibility of PIC.

http://www.punchng.com/aib-to-send-b...k-boxes-to-uk/

Last edited by gulliBell; 17th Feb 2016 at 10:13.
gulliBell is offline  
Old 17th Feb 2016, 16:45
  #232 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Jankara
Age: 64
Posts: 377
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Thumbs down Target Zero Information

The total failure of Bristow pubic relations relations department to have said anything meaningful about this 'water landing' (presumably the aircraft was on fixed floats filched from a Caravan), really does make them look like a bunch of dicks . How can one take one of the world's largest helicopter operators or its so-called Target Zero seriously when after a fairly serious incident resulting in the write off of an airframe, it maintains an almost total wall of silence? It seems that it should add a new Target Zero - Zero information
MamaPut is offline  
Old 17th Feb 2016, 17:34
  #233 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: On the globe
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
MamaPut, thank you!
Helinaut is offline  
Old 17th Feb 2016, 21:08
  #234 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: USA
Age: 55
Posts: 469
Received 46 Likes on 30 Posts
flying a S76 with no APs up is certainly within the capabilities of any ATP holder. However, my billionaire passenger would not be impressed with the ride quality that's for sure. It would most certainly be a " can I have a word ? " day.
Sir Korsky is offline  
Old 17th Feb 2016, 21:42
  #235 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: All over the place
Posts: 231
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Some Corporate speak here.

"Bristow Helicopters Limited on Wednesday said it would welcome an industry-led external audit of its operations in Nigeria following the controlled ditching of one of its choppers in Lagos."

However

"It explained that the expectation of such initiative would also extend to include the audit of other similar entities active in the Nigerian oil and gas industry."

Quite how the problems experienced by one Operator should force everyone else into an audit is extremely difficult to comprehend and is probably a non-starter. This is getting very hard to believe.

Helicopter incident: Bristow seeks external audit of its operations
rotor-rooter is offline  
Old 18th Feb 2016, 00:00
  #236 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Wanaka, NZ
Posts: 2,569
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Are the BHNL aeronautical experience requirements for a direct hire expatriate PIC the same as for a national FO to PIC upgrade applicant?
Where does the national direct hire straight out of the Bristow Academy ab-initio program get the P1 experience to eventually hold an ATP? Do you need an ATP to fly as PIC in a 2-crew S76 in Nigeria, or does a CPL cover it?
Presumably the national hire comes out of the Bristow Academy with less than 100 hours P1 and they go straight into a couple of years of P2 time. Great experience, but the next step in career progression should be single-engine command time. One hour repeated a few thousand times as a co-pilot grand total everything experience is not a breadth of experience for the making of a well-rounded offshore helicopter PIC.
In Macau we had a similar national ab-intio training program, sponsored by the company. When the program first kicked off the company management was sprouting that the cadet pilots will be flying as Captain after 2 years. As far as I know, not one of the national cadet pilots ever made it to PIC in that operation. They had to leave the company, go elsewhere (some went to BHNL I think), gain additional experience, and sure, some of them then had it all together enough for the PIC upgrade.
I'm curious how the BHNL national training program might be doing things differently to get their direct-hire co-pilots to PIC status when others have tried and not succeeded.
gulliBell is offline  
Old 18th Feb 2016, 01:13
  #237 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Ban Don Ling
Posts: 244
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
gullibell

Look no further than OGP Aircraft Management Guidelines Appendix 5B INITIO & low experience pilot training & progression for multi-crew offshore helicopter pilots. Restricted release to line after 273 hours. Commander with 2000 hours, including 1000 PICUS, after 4 years ..... and yes it has been done satisfactorily around the world.

Does not mean to say I do not identify with Target Zero ...... Information!
tistisnot is offline  
Old 18th Feb 2016, 01:23
  #238 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Wanaka, NZ
Posts: 2,569
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
@tistisnot: Great, thanks for that reference. Does <100 PIC and 1000 PICUS qualify an applicant for an ATP in the ICAO world?

I just read the OGP Aircraft Management Guidelines; yep, it all seems to be covered there. 2000 total 1000 PIC, and the rest of it. Comes as a surprise. When I started out under the Exxon rules it was (from memory) 3500 PIC minimum for offshore Captain. Anyway, dilution to what it is now is what it is. Now I'm enlightened on the subject. Thanks.

Last edited by gulliBell; 18th Feb 2016 at 02:12.
gulliBell is offline  
Old 18th Feb 2016, 02:33
  #239 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Ban Don Ling
Posts: 244
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I have only done 14 years with Exxon ...... but they always mirrored OGP - 3000 hrs for ME >5700 kg 2000 hrs for ME <5700 kgs, and 1500 hrs SE.
tistisnot is offline  
Old 18th Feb 2016, 03:49
  #240 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Wanaka, NZ
Posts: 2,569
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
I'm talking 23+ years ago...3500 PIC was required for multi <5700kg, plus a few earth orbits in the space shuttle, I think.
gulliBell is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.