Bristow S76 Ditched in Nigeria today Feb 3 2016
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Knowing something about the old days of AATC at the West Palm Beach P&W Factory when the S-76's were first coming online, I can clear some things up maybe.
The Sikorsky Autopilot system, Hamilton Standard, went through Phase I and II very quickly but had some issues getting Phase III installed.
Sperry with its Helipilot system became the preferred system and was installed at Conroe, Texas.
Air Log, now the Bristow picked their 76A's up with just a bare VFR panel with no Stability system of any kind. Some went to the Sperry factory for installs but most went to work in the Gulf of Mexico doing Revenue Flights for quite some time before making it to the Sperry facility.
The Hamilton Standard system in time could have been a very nice setup but Sperry won the market.
Anyone that thinks a 76A is impossible to fly with just "bare knuckles" does not know what they are talking about or as has been said, should not be flying a helicopter.
The 76 is "slick" and "greasy" to handle with no Stability system but with a bit of practice is no worse than a great many other helicopters. The 76 is particularly quick in roll and does not like to decelerate being a helicopter that likes to go fast.
The Sikorsky Autopilot system, Hamilton Standard, went through Phase I and II very quickly but had some issues getting Phase III installed.
Sperry with its Helipilot system became the preferred system and was installed at Conroe, Texas.
Air Log, now the Bristow picked their 76A's up with just a bare VFR panel with no Stability system of any kind. Some went to the Sperry factory for installs but most went to work in the Gulf of Mexico doing Revenue Flights for quite some time before making it to the Sperry facility.
The Hamilton Standard system in time could have been a very nice setup but Sperry won the market.
Anyone that thinks a 76A is impossible to fly with just "bare knuckles" does not know what they are talking about or as has been said, should not be flying a helicopter.
The 76 is "slick" and "greasy" to handle with no Stability system but with a bit of practice is no worse than a great many other helicopters. The 76 is particularly quick in roll and does not like to decelerate being a helicopter that likes to go fast.
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Anyone that thinks a 76A is impossible to fly with just "bare knuckles" does not know what they are talking about or as has been said, should not be flying a helicopter.
The 76 is "slick" and "greasy" to handle with no Stability system but with a bit of practice is no worse than a great many other helicopters. The 76 is particularly quick in roll and does not like to decelerate being a helicopter that likes to go fast.
The 76 is "slick" and "greasy" to handle with no Stability system but with a bit of practice is no worse than a great many other helicopters. The 76 is particularly quick in roll and does not like to decelerate being a helicopter that likes to go fast.
yaw channel was the problem
I just find it impossible to believe that anything could go that seriously wrong in AFCS yaw that would be more perilous to keep flying compared with the peril inherent in putting it into the water. But I wasn't there. Hopefully I'll be surprised.
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gulliBell
I'm with you on this one, something does not add up here. Hopefully we'll all be surprised, but with the complete lack of ANY type of meaningful detail relating to this event making it into the public domain thus far, it is becoming clear enough that great effort is being made to keep a water-tight lid on whatever actually happened.
I'm with you on this one, something does not add up here. Hopefully we'll all be surprised, but with the complete lack of ANY type of meaningful detail relating to this event making it into the public domain thus far, it is becoming clear enough that great effort is being made to keep a water-tight lid on whatever actually happened.
One of the first things I and many others teach dealing with TR malfunctions is to disengage the AFCS in yaw and deselect the yaw servo (if possible) in order to confirm or deny that you have a real TR control problem rather than a hyd or stab issue.
Surely this is basic stuff and ditching an aircraft because you think you might have a TR problem but haven't done any diagnosis is seriously unprofessional.
Surely this is basic stuff and ditching an aircraft because you think you might have a TR problem but haven't done any diagnosis is seriously unprofessional.
I also teach this stuff. The only TR malfunction that requires "land immediately" is loss of drive to the TR. Loss of drive to the TR is the most obvious malfunction to diagnose in the whole book of malfunctions. We know they didn't have a loss of drive to the TR, because if they did we'd know about it because that is serious need to know stuff for the whole industry. Of the other TR malfunctions, and there are 3 of them, the technique to diagnose and land is basically the same for all of them, and none require "land immediately". In teaching this stuff I find many trainees don't even realise they have a TR malfunction until they are getting setup for the landing. I think reasonable to assume we are not looking at a TR malfunction of any sort here.
So something has happened to get their attention. Hard-over in the yaw channel of one of the AP will get your attention for sure. Again, this is very easy to diagnose. Just look at the Yaw channel series actuator position indicator. It will be all the way to the left or right. Hunting in that channel will also be evident by the twitching response of the aircraft and the position indicators.
Anyway. We can speculate until the cows come home. Nothing makes sense yet. I hope it will, eventually. I would like to learn something from this so I can teach it to my trainees.
So something has happened to get their attention. Hard-over in the yaw channel of one of the AP will get your attention for sure. Again, this is very easy to diagnose. Just look at the Yaw channel series actuator position indicator. It will be all the way to the left or right. Hunting in that channel will also be evident by the twitching response of the aircraft and the position indicators.
Anyway. We can speculate until the cows come home. Nothing makes sense yet. I hope it will, eventually. I would like to learn something from this so I can teach it to my trainees.
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In the absence of any information from a credible official source, time to read the Nigerian press. I have nothing more than a passing interest in this incident, based on my knowledge and experience of offshore S76 operations in a previous life.
Crash Of Bristow Helicopter: Flight Crew Absolved Of Blame | Sahara Reporters
In the event of an accident or serious incident, there is often a very limited amount of factual information that can be released. That said, it is always important to ensure that appropriately accurate facts can be updated and released to establish the fundamental events leading to the accident/incident - especially if there are no fatalities and the human accounts can be verified. The aim is not to try and identify the cause of the accident or to short-cut the investigation, but to ensure you have continued credibility and control of the facts regarding the situation, whilst ensuring appropriate respect for everyone involved. It needs to be done in conjunction with the Investigating Authority, local Government agencies, manufacturer, (as appropriate) and any other credible resource that should be included in a statement of fact.
In the event you miss the opportunity, the void will be filled with conjecture, assumptions, nonsense, lies, hatred, sour grapes, axe-grinding and suspicions of a cover up (for those so inclined).
When the Nigerian AIB is releasing information to the local media and the Operator isn't releasing the same information to the global media, something is wrong in the communication process.
Your customers and employees continue to fly in these aircraft, and deserve some accurate information for themselves and their families to assure them that their safety is your primary concern - not an accident count. The passengers in the back of your helicopters have already undergone HUET training and understand the implications very clearly.
It might appear that the corporate communications team may be experts at providing information to shareholders and other corporate customers, but need to learn a bit more (try involving your flight crews) in dealing with an actual incident of this nature. The initial press release describing a "water landing" by a non-amphibious helicopter (utilizing emergency floats) were utterly incredulous and sent entirely the wrong message in the initial information. It is similar to another major operator that attempted to categorize a machine rolling over and another self destructing as it hit a lamp post as not accidents because the helicopter wasn't flying!
Here's a reference on ditching for your future benefit. Ditching: Rotary Wing Aircraft - SKYbrary Aviation Safety
And finally, every operator has an emergency response plan. Maybe it's time to re-evaluate it and compare it to the free guide that IATA produces, which contains some equally relevant considerations about Social media and even PPRuNe specifically.
https://www.iata.org/publications/Do...-april2013.pdf
And just in case you're wondering (and still reading), yes, I have unfortunately been through all this before in real life.
I'm glad there were no serious injuries, and genuinely hope that appropriate steps can be taken to ensure no repetition of a similar event (for whatever reason) and that the everyone involved can get on with their careers and get over some of the particularly vile and demeaning things that have been said on here and elsewhere.
Crash Of Bristow Helicopter: Flight Crew Absolved Of Blame | Sahara Reporters
In the event of an accident or serious incident, there is often a very limited amount of factual information that can be released. That said, it is always important to ensure that appropriately accurate facts can be updated and released to establish the fundamental events leading to the accident/incident - especially if there are no fatalities and the human accounts can be verified. The aim is not to try and identify the cause of the accident or to short-cut the investigation, but to ensure you have continued credibility and control of the facts regarding the situation, whilst ensuring appropriate respect for everyone involved. It needs to be done in conjunction with the Investigating Authority, local Government agencies, manufacturer, (as appropriate) and any other credible resource that should be included in a statement of fact.
In the event you miss the opportunity, the void will be filled with conjecture, assumptions, nonsense, lies, hatred, sour grapes, axe-grinding and suspicions of a cover up (for those so inclined).
When the Nigerian AIB is releasing information to the local media and the Operator isn't releasing the same information to the global media, something is wrong in the communication process.
Your customers and employees continue to fly in these aircraft, and deserve some accurate information for themselves and their families to assure them that their safety is your primary concern - not an accident count. The passengers in the back of your helicopters have already undergone HUET training and understand the implications very clearly.
It might appear that the corporate communications team may be experts at providing information to shareholders and other corporate customers, but need to learn a bit more (try involving your flight crews) in dealing with an actual incident of this nature. The initial press release describing a "water landing" by a non-amphibious helicopter (utilizing emergency floats) were utterly incredulous and sent entirely the wrong message in the initial information. It is similar to another major operator that attempted to categorize a machine rolling over and another self destructing as it hit a lamp post as not accidents because the helicopter wasn't flying!
Here's a reference on ditching for your future benefit. Ditching: Rotary Wing Aircraft - SKYbrary Aviation Safety
And finally, every operator has an emergency response plan. Maybe it's time to re-evaluate it and compare it to the free guide that IATA produces, which contains some equally relevant considerations about Social media and even PPRuNe specifically.
https://www.iata.org/publications/Do...-april2013.pdf
And just in case you're wondering (and still reading), yes, I have unfortunately been through all this before in real life.
I'm glad there were no serious injuries, and genuinely hope that appropriate steps can be taken to ensure no repetition of a similar event (for whatever reason) and that the everyone involved can get on with their careers and get over some of the particularly vile and demeaning things that have been said on here and elsewhere.
I just find it impossible to believe that anything could go that seriously wrong in AFCS yaw that would be more perilous to keep flying compared with the peril inherent in putting it into the water. But I wasn't there. Hopefully I'll be surprised.
I think its called getting into a 'mind set.'
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I think its called getting into a 'mind set.'
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a Commander gets paid the big bucks
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Revolutionary
It is only fair to point out that your comment is totally irrelevant ....... the phrase being paid the big bucks is purely in relation to the co-pilot who is normally being paid less, and who has less responsibility.
It is only fair to point out that your comment is totally irrelevant ....... the phrase being paid the big bucks is purely in relation to the co-pilot who is normally being paid less, and who has less responsibility.
Nigerian In Law
Done & Dusted ?
Revolutionary,
Wasn't that discrepancy addressed and rectified some time ago ? There was a lot of discontent and discussion before I left and I was under the (possibly wrong) impression that the pay/allowance gap had been closed.
Of course I stand to be corrected by those with more current knowledge.
NEO
Wasn't that discrepancy addressed and rectified some time ago ? There was a lot of discontent and discussion before I left and I was under the (possibly wrong) impression that the pay/allowance gap had been closed.
Of course I stand to be corrected by those with more current knowledge.
NEO
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So nigerian captains think the following conditions are just totally unfair:
Day 1: the company (Bristow) spends 250,000 USD to give you a "free ride" towards becoming a professional helicopter pilot. All expenses paid. Takes you about 18 months to get your licences.
Step 2: Company pays for you to get a twin engine helicopter type rating in which you will fly as an FO.
Step 3: About 4 years have passed since day 1 ( the first day of training) and you are promoted to Captain in Offshore CAT in a twin engine helicopter carrying passengers. You make a net monthly salary between 6500 to 8000 USD and you see your family every day. You barely have any experience (but you think you do), you are working at home in your country with the possibility of seeing your children grow up, and you make a salary which in any country around the world would be considered very high.
Yet when you see an expat pilot and you find out what he makes you become very upset because it is more than you do. But you forget to see that this expat pilot has been flying (on average) more than 25 years, has close to 10 thousand flying hours on helicopters, has flown many (at least 6) different types of helicopters in a wide variety of operations, and has to spend at least half of his life (or more) away from home and his loved ones, missing birthdays, Christmasses, important events, deaths of relatives and friends, etc, etc.
I'll tell you what: Why don't you go and travel the world, get a job in another country and fly there for a few years doing different types of helicopter operations (other than flying all day, every day, in a straight line to and from the same rig in - almost daily - VFR weather) and get some experience? Maybe then, when you have missed a few birthdays, have had a few close calls, and pass the 10,000 hr mark, maybe then you can come back to Nigeria and demand better pay for yourself!!
Day 1: the company (Bristow) spends 250,000 USD to give you a "free ride" towards becoming a professional helicopter pilot. All expenses paid. Takes you about 18 months to get your licences.
Step 2: Company pays for you to get a twin engine helicopter type rating in which you will fly as an FO.
Step 3: About 4 years have passed since day 1 ( the first day of training) and you are promoted to Captain in Offshore CAT in a twin engine helicopter carrying passengers. You make a net monthly salary between 6500 to 8000 USD and you see your family every day. You barely have any experience (but you think you do), you are working at home in your country with the possibility of seeing your children grow up, and you make a salary which in any country around the world would be considered very high.
Yet when you see an expat pilot and you find out what he makes you become very upset because it is more than you do. But you forget to see that this expat pilot has been flying (on average) more than 25 years, has close to 10 thousand flying hours on helicopters, has flown many (at least 6) different types of helicopters in a wide variety of operations, and has to spend at least half of his life (or more) away from home and his loved ones, missing birthdays, Christmasses, important events, deaths of relatives and friends, etc, etc.
I'll tell you what: Why don't you go and travel the world, get a job in another country and fly there for a few years doing different types of helicopter operations (other than flying all day, every day, in a straight line to and from the same rig in - almost daily - VFR weather) and get some experience? Maybe then, when you have missed a few birthdays, have had a few close calls, and pass the 10,000 hr mark, maybe then you can come back to Nigeria and demand better pay for yourself!!
Nigerian In Law
Am I Missing Something ?
tgvbhy15,
I don't understand where the vitriol is coming from or why ? North Sea pilots earn around about the same as airline pilots; they and many American and other nationality pilots exercise their freedom of choice to work in their home countries rather than work in West Africa.
Many, maybe even the majority of them were trained by their respective governments at no cost to themselves, rather the taxpayer footed the bill.
Surely the issue of seeing families/home life etc is a personal choice ? If not, then what is it ? Money ? In which case this is a non issue. Also, what relevance does this have to the incident ?
NEO
I don't understand where the vitriol is coming from or why ? North Sea pilots earn around about the same as airline pilots; they and many American and other nationality pilots exercise their freedom of choice to work in their home countries rather than work in West Africa.
Many, maybe even the majority of them were trained by their respective governments at no cost to themselves, rather the taxpayer footed the bill.
Surely the issue of seeing families/home life etc is a personal choice ? If not, then what is it ? Money ? In which case this is a non issue. Also, what relevance does this have to the incident ?
NEO
Last edited by Nigerian Expat Outlaw; 16th Feb 2016 at 17:23. Reason: Spelling
I, and the other expat captains used to earn a shedload of money compared to the Chinese captains, including those with EASA licences as well as their own.
Never any problems. They kept waving money in front of my face after I had retired so as to keep bringing me back.
Never any problems. They kept waving money in front of my face after I had retired so as to keep bringing me back.
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It is only fair to point out that your comment is totally irrelevant ....... the phrase being paid the big bucks is purely in relation to the co-pilot who is normally being paid less, and who has less responsibility.
1. Keep the discussion focused on the Commander's decision making abilities, regardless of nationality; and
2. Further explore the ways and means by which this particular operator selects, trains and assesses its Commanders prior to releasing them into the big, bad world.
The workers and loved ones of those workers have a right to know the truth about the quality, caliber and competence of those charged with their safety after getting airborne.