AAIB Report A109E accident at Vauxhall, and Inquest Verdict
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Paco;
The aristocracy are far easier to deal with than some guy who's made millions by pushing the limits, and Cap'n Bob dragged everything to new lows
What we do looks great from the outside, nice shiny kit, some nice destinations, lots of drinking coffee in those destinations. The outside world never sees the pilot being called at 02:30 with a change, the boss's P.A. not telling you the pax load because if she can withold knowledge then she has power, expecting a 16:00 lift back to base and the boss not turning up until 20:30 on your wedding anniversary, oh and you arrived at work at 06:00, for the third year on the trot. From day one, managing customer expectation is the key to safety. Where I currently work we run a course for P.As so that they can see where the shark infested custard is, it doesn't solve everything, but it helps a lot. It is going to be very interesting when Part NCC comes into force and ops manuals, Accountable Manager etc become a requirement.
BUT, we are also our own worst enemies, when you are told that Captain Fantastic from White Knuckle Helicopters always achieves the task, you know that you are on a hiding to nothing. The problem is that you know Captain Fantastic is a lunatic with 4 stripes and an ATPL who has no concept of minimum LZ size, blatantly ignores weather minima and CAA permissions, and the customer uses Captain Fantastic's tremendous abilities to pressurise you. I once saw a Chief Pilot use that method to bully a young lad into flying to "save disappointing a regular customer" the young lad got away with it, I was sorely tempted to punch the CP concerned, as were some other witnessess.
The customers expect, and the customers are occasionally bloody difficult, and the customers are what makes SP/IFR corporate such a challenging environment, awkwardly those customers also pay the bills, but I wonder if they realise we talk about them when we meet up. If they realise that they have individual reputations amongst the pilots and ops staffs, and that often those reputations stink.
After one well publicised smash my boss and I were talking while waiting for guests and the subject of the smash was the topic, the boss said something about if I refused he would replace me, my response was "There's 350 of you lot on the Rich List, in the UK there's less than 60 pilots doing my job, compared to me you're f###ing common!" I still fly for him, and am regularly introduced as his "bolshey pilot" he is one man I knew I could get away with saying that to, the others all have to be handled differently.
Basically I'm an airborne prostitute: I have various male clients who all wish to be satisfied in different ways, I'm good, and I'm expensive because I remember their whims and preferences and please each one the way he prefers....The lady clients are a lot easier......
SND
The aristocracy are far easier to deal with than some guy who's made millions by pushing the limits, and Cap'n Bob dragged everything to new lows
What we do looks great from the outside, nice shiny kit, some nice destinations, lots of drinking coffee in those destinations. The outside world never sees the pilot being called at 02:30 with a change, the boss's P.A. not telling you the pax load because if she can withold knowledge then she has power, expecting a 16:00 lift back to base and the boss not turning up until 20:30 on your wedding anniversary, oh and you arrived at work at 06:00, for the third year on the trot. From day one, managing customer expectation is the key to safety. Where I currently work we run a course for P.As so that they can see where the shark infested custard is, it doesn't solve everything, but it helps a lot. It is going to be very interesting when Part NCC comes into force and ops manuals, Accountable Manager etc become a requirement.
BUT, we are also our own worst enemies, when you are told that Captain Fantastic from White Knuckle Helicopters always achieves the task, you know that you are on a hiding to nothing. The problem is that you know Captain Fantastic is a lunatic with 4 stripes and an ATPL who has no concept of minimum LZ size, blatantly ignores weather minima and CAA permissions, and the customer uses Captain Fantastic's tremendous abilities to pressurise you. I once saw a Chief Pilot use that method to bully a young lad into flying to "save disappointing a regular customer" the young lad got away with it, I was sorely tempted to punch the CP concerned, as were some other witnessess.
The customers expect, and the customers are occasionally bloody difficult, and the customers are what makes SP/IFR corporate such a challenging environment, awkwardly those customers also pay the bills, but I wonder if they realise we talk about them when we meet up. If they realise that they have individual reputations amongst the pilots and ops staffs, and that often those reputations stink.
After one well publicised smash my boss and I were talking while waiting for guests and the subject of the smash was the topic, the boss said something about if I refused he would replace me, my response was "There's 350 of you lot on the Rich List, in the UK there's less than 60 pilots doing my job, compared to me you're f###ing common!" I still fly for him, and am regularly introduced as his "bolshey pilot" he is one man I knew I could get away with saying that to, the others all have to be handled differently.
Basically I'm an airborne prostitute: I have various male clients who all wish to be satisfied in different ways, I'm good, and I'm expensive because I remember their whims and preferences and please each one the way he prefers....The lady clients are a lot easier......
SND
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Wageslave
I think you need to be careful just blaming lack of operations control too much, rather than the pilots' judgement. You say the the Haughey accident was caused by poor operational control, but at the end of the day it was the pilots who were actually there, looking at the weather and decided to lift. They knew whether it was clear above and they could see stars or not, and what the vis right there was. Obviously helicopter ops are usually out of private sites where there is no reported weather and the go/no go decision (regarding departure) should be dominated by those at that site with most experience - ie the pilots. What is the duty operations person sitting in a remote office going to do? Of course, en route and destination weather is another matter, and here ops can be a big help.
I think you need to be careful just blaming lack of operations control too much, rather than the pilots' judgement. You say the the Haughey accident was caused by poor operational control, but at the end of the day it was the pilots who were actually there, looking at the weather and decided to lift. They knew whether it was clear above and they could see stars or not, and what the vis right there was. Obviously helicopter ops are usually out of private sites where there is no reported weather and the go/no go decision (regarding departure) should be dominated by those at that site with most experience - ie the pilots. What is the duty operations person sitting in a remote office going to do? Of course, en route and destination weather is another matter, and here ops can be a big help.
Sir Niall - rather unpleasant and unneccessarily aggressive stuff you have chosen to post
I haven't claimed to be a corporate guru, I only mentioned that SPIFR is one of the many things I have taught in my career and it most certainly isn't the most difficult.
As I have said before, I understand the pressures to get the job done - those exist in all areas of aviation but the corporate world seems to be the worst for dealing with it.
Your attitude to criticism of the industry is perhaps one of the reasons it is in such sh*te order - your answer is 'it it what it is and it can't be changed' - that bodes poorly for the future of many more corporate pilots and their pax.
Try being introspective rather than just launching at every person who dares to comment on your chosen career.
I haven't claimed to be a corporate guru, I only mentioned that SPIFR is one of the many things I have taught in my career and it most certainly isn't the most difficult.
As I have said before, I understand the pressures to get the job done - those exist in all areas of aviation but the corporate world seems to be the worst for dealing with it.
Your attitude to criticism of the industry is perhaps one of the reasons it is in such sh*te order - your answer is 'it it what it is and it can't be changed' - that bodes poorly for the future of many more corporate pilots and their pax.
Try being introspective rather than just launching at every person who dares to comment on your chosen career.
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Crab;
I apologise for being aggresive, but you mis-read me. I am sick and tired of banging the desk, pushing safety cases and doing my damndest to educate customers when so many people let the industry down. The training standards have been lowered by EASA and I am frustrated to buggery by not being able to improve things on a wider basis than my own operation.
I posted on here in the LBAL thread that I have been trying to get a mentoring programme together, currently that is stymied because lawyers and insurers don't want to take any risk in that direction. But with the ever widening skills gap something like that is becoming vital, or we are faced with more inexperienced pilots in 109's, 139's, whatever, teaching themselves corporate ops.
SP/IFR is not difficult, but as I posted before the customers can take it to a whole new level of pressure when the decide to.
If you ever had to deal with the me who exists outside these pages you would know just how frustrated I am at the current situation. I was due to fly at the same time as Pete Barnes, but cancelled the night before due to the forecast and got a 10 minute rant from my customer. PB was one of my closest friends and I am unbelivably angered and frustrated at the futility of both his and Mathew Woods deaths.
Sorry if I upset you, but I'm feeling a touch irritated by the whole sorry situation.
SND
I apologise for being aggresive, but you mis-read me. I am sick and tired of banging the desk, pushing safety cases and doing my damndest to educate customers when so many people let the industry down. The training standards have been lowered by EASA and I am frustrated to buggery by not being able to improve things on a wider basis than my own operation.
I posted on here in the LBAL thread that I have been trying to get a mentoring programme together, currently that is stymied because lawyers and insurers don't want to take any risk in that direction. But with the ever widening skills gap something like that is becoming vital, or we are faced with more inexperienced pilots in 109's, 139's, whatever, teaching themselves corporate ops.
SP/IFR is not difficult, but as I posted before the customers can take it to a whole new level of pressure when the decide to.
If you ever had to deal with the me who exists outside these pages you would know just how frustrated I am at the current situation. I was due to fly at the same time as Pete Barnes, but cancelled the night before due to the forecast and got a 10 minute rant from my customer. PB was one of my closest friends and I am unbelivably angered and frustrated at the futility of both his and Mathew Woods deaths.
Sorry if I upset you, but I'm feeling a touch irritated by the whole sorry situation.
SND
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Your attitude to criticism of the industry is perhaps one of the reasons it is in such sh*te order - your answer is 'it it what it is and it can't be changed' - that bodes poorly for the future of many more corporate pilots and their pax.
It's the responsibility of the regulator to make the rules, not the operators who have to work within them.
The rules obviously help level the playing field as far as safety goes, but only if the rules are properly enforced. The problem comes that some operators seem to have been getting away with rule breaches for some time. This isn't the fault of the other operators!
Part NCC rules come in next year and although it's a step in the right direction, as I pointed out to one of the CAA senior staff, these rules won't apply to pilots flying smaller helicopters for private owners, which is where much of this side of the problem lies.
Edit: I concur with what SND has written above; this is a very small part of the industry and we know each other and have discussed this and other recent accidents, both before and after the AAIB have published their reports. After PB's accident, I received a number of phone calls from people within the industry concerned about my own safety. I wasn't flying on that day, either....go figure!
Sir Niall - roger, completely understand where you are coming from now
It is disappointing that the regulators seem so toothless when there clearly is a problem that needs to be addressed.
Much of civilian aviation seems to be blighted by a reluctance to face facts regarding the need for training and mentoring in schemes such as yours - the average GA pilot gets precious little post-graduate training once they have their licence and, as you will know, that is what helps Military pilots improve continuously through their careers.
Good luck trying to push through the changes
It is disappointing that the regulators seem so toothless when there clearly is a problem that needs to be addressed.
Much of civilian aviation seems to be blighted by a reluctance to face facts regarding the need for training and mentoring in schemes such as yours - the average GA pilot gets precious little post-graduate training once they have their licence and, as you will know, that is what helps Military pilots improve continuously through their careers.
Good luck trying to push through the changes
Now that Robert Maxwell has been mentioned by name, apart from reducing the risk of more fatal accidents, what would be the effect of exposing the names of other arrogant owners/operators who have had their professional pilots leave their employ due to their pressure/disregard for their professional safety decisions?
Several of us here have been, or still are, in the corporate business and know full well who these owners were/are. I could name another four without thinking and I suspect those still alive continue to apply those same pressures to their pilots to this day. After all, the Cabin Crew section of PPruNe were not afraid of naming their unpleasant "celebrity" passengers .... and this is about saving lives.
Perhaps our Flying Lawyer would give an opinion.
Several of us here have been, or still are, in the corporate business and know full well who these owners were/are. I could name another four without thinking and I suspect those still alive continue to apply those same pressures to their pilots to this day. After all, the Cabin Crew section of PPruNe were not afraid of naming their unpleasant "celebrity" passengers .... and this is about saving lives.
Perhaps our Flying Lawyer would give an opinion.
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76Fan,
Sounds like a great idea to name and shame - if you never want to work in the corporate sector again.
However, here's one story, which was told to me in person by an experienced ex-Army pilot who found himself working for a private owner, someone the old school gentry might call "nouveau riche". The owner demanded more and more from him until he had said pilot living in a temporary building on his estate. After a day's work, the pilot had gone to bed. Not long before midnight he was awoken by the owner, allegedly a bit worse for wear, who demanded he be flown to Birmingham, on a social escapade.
He was silly enough to do it! I found it hard to believe but gave my opinion there and then; I do know the pilot moved on elsewhere not long afterwards. He was later killed in an inexplicably silly and high profile CFIT accident.
Sounds like a great idea to name and shame - if you never want to work in the corporate sector again.
However, here's one story, which was told to me in person by an experienced ex-Army pilot who found himself working for a private owner, someone the old school gentry might call "nouveau riche". The owner demanded more and more from him until he had said pilot living in a temporary building on his estate. After a day's work, the pilot had gone to bed. Not long before midnight he was awoken by the owner, allegedly a bit worse for wear, who demanded he be flown to Birmingham, on a social escapade.
He was silly enough to do it! I found it hard to believe but gave my opinion there and then; I do know the pilot moved on elsewhere not long afterwards. He was later killed in an inexplicably silly and high profile CFIT accident.
Crab.....if you have one of the Air Marshals or whatever you call the Top Dogs in the RAF in the back of your Bus and he directs you to do something quite out of order and you tell him to get stuffed....how would that reflect on your Promotion possibilities or retention in service?
#198 Shy,
Thankfully I "retired" from the corporate onshore helicopter many years ago. My departure was initiated after trying (and failing) to maintain sensible flight safety and compliance with CAA regulations in a company where private owner and AOC flights were mixed just as Wageslave (#178) described. This was combined with a company "push on" and "it'll be alright" attitude. When I was relieved of my position as TRE/IRE/TC by the chief pilot, I surrendered my authority to the CAA with an explanation ....and the CAA reply was "sorry it didn't work out".....
Yep, I am very glad I survived (unlike several with whom I have worked) but I am still bloody mad that it still seems impossible to do anything about the industry standards and safety; no responsible professional pilot wants to break the rules .... but where is the support?
Thankfully I "retired" from the corporate onshore helicopter many years ago. My departure was initiated after trying (and failing) to maintain sensible flight safety and compliance with CAA regulations in a company where private owner and AOC flights were mixed just as Wageslave (#178) described. This was combined with a company "push on" and "it'll be alright" attitude. When I was relieved of my position as TRE/IRE/TC by the chief pilot, I surrendered my authority to the CAA with an explanation ....and the CAA reply was "sorry it didn't work out".....
Yep, I am very glad I survived (unlike several with whom I have worked) but I am still bloody mad that it still seems impossible to do anything about the industry standards and safety; no responsible professional pilot wants to break the rules .... but where is the support?
Last edited by 76fan; 2nd Dec 2015 at 20:36. Reason: Correction to Wageslaves post number.
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76fan, There is sometimes very little support from above - unless you work for someone like SND.
Well done on sticking to your principles!
Well done on sticking to your principles!
I being one of the unlucky people who went CPL IR route at the wrong time and left with no north sea jobs. I can see that corporate you could be talked in to doing jobs outside of the minima if desperate for work.
I am lucky with no financial pressure as I did it a bit later in life and can survive by my self instructing. But some I know have very real financial commitments that do not create an environment that enables the same (no flying today the weather is not good enough) attitude.
The pressure can be a lot more intense, than some here who have military/wage at the end of the month regardles background appreciate. Some people do not have thousands of multi engine hours behind them, or finances to fall back on for waiting for the next job.
Pilots decision making does not always start in the cockpit but in the bank managers office many months or years earlier. I don't think this is right but it is a fact of the cost of entering this industry.
This may not be relevant to PB but to ignore the other pressures on some pilots is short sighted, and naive.
I am lucky with no financial pressure as I did it a bit later in life and can survive by my self instructing. But some I know have very real financial commitments that do not create an environment that enables the same (no flying today the weather is not good enough) attitude.
The pressure can be a lot more intense, than some here who have military/wage at the end of the month regardles background appreciate. Some people do not have thousands of multi engine hours behind them, or finances to fall back on for waiting for the next job.
Pilots decision making does not always start in the cockpit but in the bank managers office many months or years earlier. I don't think this is right but it is a fact of the cost of entering this industry.
This may not be relevant to PB but to ignore the other pressures on some pilots is short sighted, and naive.
There is sometimes very little support from above
I once found myself in a UK scheduled f/w company that did no reactive maintenance whatever and not one of their fleet of 5 aircraft was ever fit to fly in IMC over the months I worked for them, (Captains were forbidden to write snags in the Tech Log, but then there were no ADD sheets present in the Tech Logs to allow them to do so), individual pilots were publicly ridiculed in the crew room by the CP for failing to bust minima and when I had a fairly serious and very public reportable accident (international, scheduled Public Transport) they simply failed to submit an accident report! That accident is not, to this day officially recorded despite the CAA being fully aware of it's occurrence. I kid you not. Officially it never happened.
When I approached the CAA Flt Ops inspector (not appreciating at the time that he must have been in cahoots with the whole farrago ) he advised me that I could put my head above the parapet if I wished but expect it to be shot off and forget working in the industry ever again or just get out of that particular "nest of rats" (his words) and find employment elsewhere. 20 years later that same nest of rats were, according to every one of their several "ex" FOs I flew with they were still operating in exactly the same manner.
No, you're damn right you get no help from "above". None whatever.
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Paco;
You are right. One of the things I bang on about with my FOI, boss, Ops team et al is that CRM courses cover the cockpit gradient, they never cover the cabin/cockpit gradient. The wealthy risk taker in the back pays the salary/ies of the blokes pulling the sticks and levers in the front. He is used to having his own way and winning in negotiation. He expects to win with his employees, especially those who to him are part of the solution to his time problems.
Helicopter pilots are a specifically and highly trained bunch, with a good idea of their abilities and the legalities of what they can do, as I type this there are 5 around me planning trips, the only common attribute to them is their confidence in what they are doing and their humour, otherwise no two are the same (thankfully) Each has his way with passengers, each has family to go home to, and each one deals with pushy passengers differently. But I know that all of them have at some time been under either direct, aggresive customer behaviour, or the more insidious wheedling pressure that really creeps up on you, and each one is quite prepared to say no in his own way. It takes a while for them to learn that often customers come to respect the man who is prepared to stand up for what he knows is right, and that same customer will cheerfully stamp on the pilot who gives in, the pilots are the experts, and customers should listen to them in the same way they listen to their lawyers, bankers and accountants. Oddly I've never yet met a lawyer, accountant or banker involved in keeping the principal alive in the way the pilot is involved.
SND
You are right. One of the things I bang on about with my FOI, boss, Ops team et al is that CRM courses cover the cockpit gradient, they never cover the cabin/cockpit gradient. The wealthy risk taker in the back pays the salary/ies of the blokes pulling the sticks and levers in the front. He is used to having his own way and winning in negotiation. He expects to win with his employees, especially those who to him are part of the solution to his time problems.
Helicopter pilots are a specifically and highly trained bunch, with a good idea of their abilities and the legalities of what they can do, as I type this there are 5 around me planning trips, the only common attribute to them is their confidence in what they are doing and their humour, otherwise no two are the same (thankfully) Each has his way with passengers, each has family to go home to, and each one deals with pushy passengers differently. But I know that all of them have at some time been under either direct, aggresive customer behaviour, or the more insidious wheedling pressure that really creeps up on you, and each one is quite prepared to say no in his own way. It takes a while for them to learn that often customers come to respect the man who is prepared to stand up for what he knows is right, and that same customer will cheerfully stamp on the pilot who gives in, the pilots are the experts, and customers should listen to them in the same way they listen to their lawyers, bankers and accountants. Oddly I've never yet met a lawyer, accountant or banker involved in keeping the principal alive in the way the pilot is involved.
SND
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Seems to be a lot of corporate bashing going on and admittedly I've only been in that world for the last ten years or so but my experience could not be more different than the ones being described !
I fly for a number of different owners, none of the machines are allowed any defects , my decisions are often decussed but never questioned and I get whatever I asked for . Yes there's often only me involved from pre flight planning, ops and aircraft husbandry but none of that is very difficult .
Compare that to my experience with AOC holders and its chalk and cheese having often been asked to fly aircraft with any number of defects , or pressured to fly in rubbish weather or having my concerns completely ignored ! So from my experience I know where I prefer to work
CBS
I fly for a number of different owners, none of the machines are allowed any defects , my decisions are often decussed but never questioned and I get whatever I asked for . Yes there's often only me involved from pre flight planning, ops and aircraft husbandry but none of that is very difficult .
Compare that to my experience with AOC holders and its chalk and cheese having often been asked to fly aircraft with any number of defects , or pressured to fly in rubbish weather or having my concerns completely ignored ! So from my experience I know where I prefer to work
CBS
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Just to add a small comment,
Tower Cranes due to there structure's and ways of being erected and fixed.. ether to buildings ..Or to the ground, have to be left when parked in a Safe way that allows the standing stress's of gravity and wind to make them safe from such things as stress and or collapse, tower cranes always feather(so to speak so the winds cannot overstress or affect the structure, wind limits for certain cranes are between 22 - 25 knt's after that no operation is allowed, but the cranes that fix to buildings and extend with there working height to match the building they are sat on need to park with Jibs at a certain elevated angle( I think the jib has to be at about 72 or more degrees for crane parking safety due to wind stress or wind induced movements.
Looking at any city where hard lumps of structural steel are possibly hidden in clouds or morning mists, allied to the nearness of ANY aviation activity surely should be red lined in vivid red to all interested parties such as ATC s and actual operators , but the local planners of said cities when the very first planning applications are being looked at........is that not so now ?
Tower Cranes due to there structure's and ways of being erected and fixed.. ether to buildings ..Or to the ground, have to be left when parked in a Safe way that allows the standing stress's of gravity and wind to make them safe from such things as stress and or collapse, tower cranes always feather(so to speak so the winds cannot overstress or affect the structure, wind limits for certain cranes are between 22 - 25 knt's after that no operation is allowed, but the cranes that fix to buildings and extend with there working height to match the building they are sat on need to park with Jibs at a certain elevated angle( I think the jib has to be at about 72 or more degrees for crane parking safety due to wind stress or wind induced movements.
Looking at any city where hard lumps of structural steel are possibly hidden in clouds or morning mists, allied to the nearness of ANY aviation activity surely should be red lined in vivid red to all interested parties such as ATC s and actual operators , but the local planners of said cities when the very first planning applications are being looked at........is that not so now ?
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Crazy Broadsword;
But you don't do SP/IFR, its a lot easier to say no when the aircraft and pilot aren't allowed to fly IFR. You've got a good customer base you've built over a long time, but their expectations tend to be lower.
SND
But you don't do SP/IFR, its a lot easier to say no when the aircraft and pilot aren't allowed to fly IFR. You've got a good customer base you've built over a long time, but their expectations tend to be lower.
SND
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Sir Niall - I was lucky, because before I started flying in the Army I was on the ATLO staff at Gutersloh, and even then (as a corporal) I was telling generals that they couldn't get on aircraft 
And if they didn't like it, the person at the end of my phone was another general in HQ BAOR - this is because the transport budget for the services is very tightly controlled. Indeed, once two of us had escaped to Wallopp, so to speak, they made movement control a restricted trade.
Naturally, in such circumstances, you learn very quickly how to be diplomatic (or not!), but this kind of training is simply not available to modern pilots.
In answer to the poster above, you're quite right, not every corporate job is awful - I enjoyed my time with JCB when Chalky was in charge, and I think the best job was had by Francis Davy who flew the Laing builders helicopter - he told me that it was 9 to 5 and they respected his decisions always.
However, there are enough people who can make it otherwise, and I am at a loss as to what to do about it, other than to relate my war stories during CRM courses and hope that some of it sinks in.
phil
And if they didn't like it, the person at the end of my phone was another general in HQ BAOR - this is because the transport budget for the services is very tightly controlled. Indeed, once two of us had escaped to Wallopp, so to speak, they made movement control a restricted trade.Naturally, in such circumstances, you learn very quickly how to be diplomatic (or not!), but this kind of training is simply not available to modern pilots.
In answer to the poster above, you're quite right, not every corporate job is awful - I enjoyed my time with JCB when Chalky was in charge, and I think the best job was had by Francis Davy who flew the Laing builders helicopter - he told me that it was 9 to 5 and they respected his decisions always.
However, there are enough people who can make it otherwise, and I am at a loss as to what to do about it, other than to relate my war stories during CRM courses and hope that some of it sinks in.
phil