AAIB Report A109E accident at Vauxhall, and Inquest Verdict
And there's the nub....
Just been fluffing myself up to get big enough to enter the ring - suffice to say - done most types of flying, mil and civ, fixed and rotary - obviously fixed-wing doesn't count as runways don't move!
CRAB - Forget the SPIFR bit, not great magic there, it is the fact you are on your Jack Jones when you need to discuss a situation or re-think decision..
No 'co' to hear sucking his teeth,
No Winch-op with a sarky comment,
No Winchman to tut, no ground crew to raise an eyebrow, no cleaning lady....
Get the picture?
EMS & Police both have crews.
Corporate is the toughest flying environment I have worked in without getting shot at.
O&G is money for old rope, very few 'Captaincy' decisions to make, regardless what they try and say. So regulated and monitored yet they still fly into the sea and kill people!
But please, no more BS. The onshore industry is one of the 'gashest' I have experienced. PB was not the first to fly out of limits, over a congested area, bursting every 500' bubble as he went. Does anyone think it was his first time?.
The big problem is he killed someone else this time.
If you have ever muttered that crass phrase 'There go by the grace of God go I' and raised a glass to someone who died breaking the rules then you are part of the problem.
The industry needs to mature and hold itself accountable - trouble is , the CAA/BHA don't have the nowse and are too busy ignoring what the O&G owners are up too - and no, the latest safety regulations have changed nothing in the way they operate.
So please don't dismiss such flying as just a tragic mishap - PB will be missed but not sure about Rotormotion.
A bit more honesty and integrity won't go amiss in the industry.
If corporate choppers had HFDM/HOMPs then there would be no excuses and some accountability that is sorely missing.
HFDM is insisted on by the customer for O&G machines - not the operator.
It is now the norm but of course far to expensive, bulky, a maintenance burden for a simple corporate machine......until mandated after CAA ran out of ideas.
GPS & Radar data helps but does not yet flag-up to Chief Pilot when flying was outside SOPs or a particular pilot setting trends.
So - a long hard look in the mirror.
Grow some balls and stop making the industry appear so 'gash'.
Those of you that fear for your job because you dared to use all that experience and not fly the owner - whatever happened to 'if there's doubt, there's no doubt'??
Perhaps those pilots who do not allocate time for contingency plans and force themselves into blind alleys through over-confidence and forgetting lessons previously learnt will be culled the natural way - just tragic they kill others in the process.
Getting tired hearing of previous daring-do tales of scud running below minima to get the job done after another tradegy. Especially when all the 'job' is is flying some guy to throw lead at a bird!
How many of you have literally been waiting for this sort of accident to happen - "I told you so".
For those of you that think this is hindsight - maybe you should spend more time thinking about who you fly and why you fly?
To challenge yourself? To challenge the weather limits?
So when an experienced aviator says he would have been sat in the tearoom knowing he had done everything possible but fly then don't retort with the 'fear of losing job' statement - your job is to get punter from A to B iaw simple rules.
If you can't do that then you are doing no one, least of all the industry, any favours.
CRAB - Forget the SPIFR bit, not great magic there, it is the fact you are on your Jack Jones when you need to discuss a situation or re-think decision..
No 'co' to hear sucking his teeth,
No Winch-op with a sarky comment,
No Winchman to tut, no ground crew to raise an eyebrow, no cleaning lady....
Get the picture?
EMS & Police both have crews.
Corporate is the toughest flying environment I have worked in without getting shot at.
O&G is money for old rope, very few 'Captaincy' decisions to make, regardless what they try and say. So regulated and monitored yet they still fly into the sea and kill people!
But please, no more BS. The onshore industry is one of the 'gashest' I have experienced. PB was not the first to fly out of limits, over a congested area, bursting every 500' bubble as he went. Does anyone think it was his first time?.
The big problem is he killed someone else this time.
If you have ever muttered that crass phrase 'There go by the grace of God go I' and raised a glass to someone who died breaking the rules then you are part of the problem.
The industry needs to mature and hold itself accountable - trouble is , the CAA/BHA don't have the nowse and are too busy ignoring what the O&G owners are up too - and no, the latest safety regulations have changed nothing in the way they operate.
So please don't dismiss such flying as just a tragic mishap - PB will be missed but not sure about Rotormotion.
A bit more honesty and integrity won't go amiss in the industry.
If corporate choppers had HFDM/HOMPs then there would be no excuses and some accountability that is sorely missing.
HFDM is insisted on by the customer for O&G machines - not the operator.
It is now the norm but of course far to expensive, bulky, a maintenance burden for a simple corporate machine......until mandated after CAA ran out of ideas.
GPS & Radar data helps but does not yet flag-up to Chief Pilot when flying was outside SOPs or a particular pilot setting trends.
So - a long hard look in the mirror.
Grow some balls and stop making the industry appear so 'gash'.
Those of you that fear for your job because you dared to use all that experience and not fly the owner - whatever happened to 'if there's doubt, there's no doubt'??
Perhaps those pilots who do not allocate time for contingency plans and force themselves into blind alleys through over-confidence and forgetting lessons previously learnt will be culled the natural way - just tragic they kill others in the process.
Getting tired hearing of previous daring-do tales of scud running below minima to get the job done after another tradegy. Especially when all the 'job' is is flying some guy to throw lead at a bird!
How many of you have literally been waiting for this sort of accident to happen - "I told you so".
For those of you that think this is hindsight - maybe you should spend more time thinking about who you fly and why you fly?
To challenge yourself? To challenge the weather limits?
So when an experienced aviator says he would have been sat in the tearoom knowing he had done everything possible but fly then don't retort with the 'fear of losing job' statement - your job is to get punter from A to B iaw simple rules.
If you can't do that then you are doing no one, least of all the industry, any favours.
Last edited by JulieAndrews; 30th Nov 2015 at 21:04. Reason: To remind folk that this is a rumour network and generally contains utter rubbish
Good post, Julie.
The company that I used to work for as a Police pilot, also did charter work. One afternoon they called the next day's customer and told him it was highly unlikely that they'd be able to get him to his destination for the next day due to cloud/fog. They offered to get him to a (fairly)close airfield and arrange onward transport. The customer said he'd call back.
He called back and said thanks, but he'd found someone who was sure that he could get him to his destination.
He called back again the next day to say that his pilot had scared them both ****less try to get to the destination and had ended up leaving him at the aforementioned airfield, where he'd had to find his own way.
He said he'd never questioned their judgement again.
The company that I used to work for as a Police pilot, also did charter work. One afternoon they called the next day's customer and told him it was highly unlikely that they'd be able to get him to his destination for the next day due to cloud/fog. They offered to get him to a (fairly)close airfield and arrange onward transport. The customer said he'd call back.
He called back and said thanks, but he'd found someone who was sure that he could get him to his destination.
He called back again the next day to say that his pilot had scared them both ****less try to get to the destination and had ended up leaving him at the aforementioned airfield, where he'd had to find his own way.
He said he'd never questioned their judgement again.
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An interesting story, Mighty Gem.
I'm trying to imagine an ideal world where incidents like this are reported to the regulator. All concerned are then gathered round a table and encouraged to discuss what happened. No threats of prosecution, not the first time anyway, just treat it as a learning experience.
Would that be a grown-up 21st century approach to safety? Any other suggestions?
I'm trying to imagine an ideal world where incidents like this are reported to the regulator. All concerned are then gathered round a table and encouraged to discuss what happened. No threats of prosecution, not the first time anyway, just treat it as a learning experience.
Would that be a grown-up 21st century approach to safety? Any other suggestions?
CRAB - Forget the SPIFR bit, not great magic there, it is the fact you are on your Jack Jones when you need to discuss a situation or re-think decision..
it is illuminating to see some truth about the corporate sector for a change rather than the d^ck-swinging about how hard it is and how stressful it can be.
It is clearly a cut-throat business where the customers have to learn first-hand what the downside is of going cheap and cheerful and believing him when pilot B says 'I can get you there' after pilot A has declined.
Is suspect one problem is that some of the rich and powerful don't think rules, regulations, weather and time constraints apply to them - otherwise they would just drive instead of trying to make a statement by travelling in a helicopter.
But who are the people really causing the problem in this industry? Oh yes, the pilots who keep taking the risks to impress their customers.!
If you really don't like it - don't do the job.
Avoid imitations
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Mighty Gem, I can say from personal experience that this sort of thing still goes on.
As I said before, the sensible, "good " pilot, who declines a flight for good reason is seen as a "bad" pilot by certain customers.
In their eyes, the only "good" pilot is the one who takes risks/breaks the law on their behalf and gets away with it.
But when that pilot doesn't get away with it and is involved in an accident, those same customers take very large backward steps and say it's nothing to do with them.
It happpens time and time again.
As I said before, the sensible, "good " pilot, who declines a flight for good reason is seen as a "bad" pilot by certain customers.
In their eyes, the only "good" pilot is the one who takes risks/breaks the law on their behalf and gets away with it.
But when that pilot doesn't get away with it and is involved in an accident, those same customers take very large backward steps and say it's nothing to do with them.
It happpens time and time again.
Avoid imitations
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it is illuminating to see some truth about the corporate sector for a change rather than the d^ck-swinging about how hard it is and how stressful it can be.
It is clearly a cut-throat business where the customers have to learn first-hand what the downside is of going cheap and cheerful and believing him when pilot B says 'I can get you there' after pilot A has declined.
It is clearly a cut-throat business where the customers have to learn first-hand what the downside is of going cheap and cheerful and believing him when pilot B says 'I can get you there' after pilot A has declined.
Those who have flown, or do fly, the corporate sector understand very well why the first paragraph of your post is a direct result of the second!
Those not exposed to its vagaries and pressures should be somewhat thankful that they are generally protected from it to a greater degree.
Some pilots are skittish about flying in bad weather; some are more comfortable in it. Does this make the "more comfortable" ones bad pilots?
I laugh when I read pilots haughtily talk about what *they* would do in such-and-such situation. "I would just cancel before ever taking off!!" It's funny because it's not all that cut-and-dried. Aviation never is. Those of us who've worked in these hybrid "corporate/personal" jobs are well experienced with the pressures they can bring on top of our own self-induced pressure.
We've all had cases where the weather was crappy but forecast to improve "in a while." So we call the boss.
Me: Can't go, man, weather is too bad.
Boss: When is it scheduled to clear? (Heh, "scheduled to clear," I love that one.)
Me: Well, the *forecast* is calling for some improvement in a couple of hours.
Boss: Call me when we can go.
15 minutes later, when the boss notices some tiny improvement in the fog...
Boss: Have you checked the weather? Can we go now?
Me: Still pretty bad...this *might* be the beginning of the improvement, or it might just be a temporary lifting of the fog and it'll close back in.
Boss: So can we go??
Me: No. I'll call you when we can.
15 minutes later...
You see, not all aircraft owners defer completely to the judgment of their pilots. They can be quite pushy. Some exert direct pressure; some exert it in other, more subtle ways. In the end, you're always keenly aware that your job is on the line. I put up with such a boss for nearly four years before finally throwing in the towel. Fortunately, such incidents were rare, given that the weather in the area I fly is fairly benign most of the year. But there were times. Oh there were times...
It's easy to say, "Just quit then! That guy shouldn't even own an aircraft!" Very easy to say from the comfort of your computer chair and keyboard. Not so easy to say when you've got a mortgage and a car payment and a wife and kids who've grown accustomed to, you know, eating. Where I live, there are no other flying jobs; my guy had the only corporate/personal ship around, and there are no charter companies, not even a flight school to work at. So what's a fella to do?
The 109 pilot screwed up, made a huge error of judgment and performance. He was obviously unsure of his exact location and allowed himself to fly into visibility so bad he evidently couldn't see out ahead at all. Why did he do it? We'll never know. I can put myself in his shoes, because I've been there. As luck would have it, I didn't die.
All we can take away from this accident is that we all make mistakes, even the "best" of us. Please try to not let it happen to you.
I laugh when I read pilots haughtily talk about what *they* would do in such-and-such situation. "I would just cancel before ever taking off!!" It's funny because it's not all that cut-and-dried. Aviation never is. Those of us who've worked in these hybrid "corporate/personal" jobs are well experienced with the pressures they can bring on top of our own self-induced pressure.
We've all had cases where the weather was crappy but forecast to improve "in a while." So we call the boss.
Me: Can't go, man, weather is too bad.
Boss: When is it scheduled to clear? (Heh, "scheduled to clear," I love that one.)
Me: Well, the *forecast* is calling for some improvement in a couple of hours.
Boss: Call me when we can go.
15 minutes later, when the boss notices some tiny improvement in the fog...
Boss: Have you checked the weather? Can we go now?
Me: Still pretty bad...this *might* be the beginning of the improvement, or it might just be a temporary lifting of the fog and it'll close back in.
Boss: So can we go??
Me: No. I'll call you when we can.
15 minutes later...
You see, not all aircraft owners defer completely to the judgment of their pilots. They can be quite pushy. Some exert direct pressure; some exert it in other, more subtle ways. In the end, you're always keenly aware that your job is on the line. I put up with such a boss for nearly four years before finally throwing in the towel. Fortunately, such incidents were rare, given that the weather in the area I fly is fairly benign most of the year. But there were times. Oh there were times...
It's easy to say, "Just quit then! That guy shouldn't even own an aircraft!" Very easy to say from the comfort of your computer chair and keyboard. Not so easy to say when you've got a mortgage and a car payment and a wife and kids who've grown accustomed to, you know, eating. Where I live, there are no other flying jobs; my guy had the only corporate/personal ship around, and there are no charter companies, not even a flight school to work at. So what's a fella to do?
The 109 pilot screwed up, made a huge error of judgment and performance. He was obviously unsure of his exact location and allowed himself to fly into visibility so bad he evidently couldn't see out ahead at all. Why did he do it? We'll never know. I can put myself in his shoes, because I've been there. As luck would have it, I didn't die.
All we can take away from this accident is that we all make mistakes, even the "best" of us. Please try to not let it happen to you.
Originally Posted by crab
it is illuminating to see some truth about the corporate sector for a change rather than the d^ck-swinging about how hard it is and how stressful it can be.
"Isn't that called Captaincy? If you need to ask someone about your decisions, what are you doing operating single pilot in the first place?"
Sorry - didn't make myself clear.....
Did not mean that the Jack Jones Captain feels he must ask someone - just meant that, as with every decision, you collate all the factors, utilize what experience is present etc etc blah blah - such a luxury is not available to Jack Jones.
In my younger days I've had an initial 'urge', 'whim' or 'enthusiasm' tempered by others in the crew - remember that the average age of a combat pilot was n,n,n,n,n,n,nineteen at the time - but of course now that I'm older and wiser I let them think they make the decisions and go along with it if it's safe/efficient - I find I also learn more and the CRM cup floweth over ;-)
Crab - I would hope you don't think captaincy is making a decision then taking the crew along for the ride? You mischievous tease.
Sorry - didn't make myself clear.....
Did not mean that the Jack Jones Captain feels he must ask someone - just meant that, as with every decision, you collate all the factors, utilize what experience is present etc etc blah blah - such a luxury is not available to Jack Jones.
In my younger days I've had an initial 'urge', 'whim' or 'enthusiasm' tempered by others in the crew - remember that the average age of a combat pilot was n,n,n,n,n,n,nineteen at the time - but of course now that I'm older and wiser I let them think they make the decisions and go along with it if it's safe/efficient - I find I also learn more and the CRM cup floweth over ;-)
Crab - I would hope you don't think captaincy is making a decision then taking the crew along for the ride? You mischievous tease.
Those who have flown, or do fly, the corporate sector understand very well why the first paragraph of your post is a direct result of the second!
What I find strange is that so many corporate or ex-corporate pilots have taken and will continue to take those risks just to stay in a job they hate.
We have all had crap jobs but you have 2 choices - put up with it or leave, unfortunately some seem to want to put up with it and then moan about how hard and difficult it is on these pages.
FC80 - I may extol the virtues of SAR but that is because it is a brilliant job and I loved doing it for many years because of the challenges - I don't tell everyone how hard it was and then moan about how much I hated it which appears to be the corporate pilots maxim.
Julie - Captaincy is bringing the crew with you and including them in your decision, not something that has ever been a problem I have found. If you are single pilot then clearly the communication loop is somewhat quicker.
Does an airline pilot ask the pax in !st class if it is OK for him to divert due to weather???
Mighty Gem, is your anecdote hinting at PB and Rotormotion,
Hey Crab, it would appear from reading their crash reports that airline pilots should ask the pax for help - it certainly appears that they struggle to cope with various aspects that a 'poler' would call sop!!
Now let us leave the pax out of this - the only mention of pax is when they come on the i/c at the most crucial moment or start tapping your shoulder - I hope the only time pax are asked where they would like to divert to is when discussing the contingencies with the pa prior to the flight ;-)
Now let us leave the pax out of this - the only mention of pax is when they come on the i/c at the most crucial moment or start tapping your shoulder - I hope the only time pax are asked where they would like to divert to is when discussing the contingencies with the pa prior to the flight ;-)
Originally Posted by [email protected]
Shy, I understand that completely and I am well aware that many corporate pilots don't have your experience or skills to fall back on when things get tough with the weather/customer.
What I find strange is that so many corporate or ex-corporate pilots have taken and will continue to take those risks just to stay in a job they hate.
We have all had crap jobs but you have 2 choices - put up with it or leave, unfortunately some seem to want to put up with it and then moan about how hard and difficult it is on these pages.
FC80 - I may extol the virtues of SAR but that is because it is a brilliant job and I loved doing it for many years because of the challenges - I don't tell everyone how hard it was and then moan about how much I hated it which appears to be the corporate pilots maxim.
Julie - Captaincy is bringing the crew with you and including them in your decision, not something that has ever been a problem I have found. If you are single pilot then clearly the communication loop is somewhat quicker.
Does an airline pilot ask the pax in !st class if it is OK for him to divert due to weather???
What I find strange is that so many corporate or ex-corporate pilots have taken and will continue to take those risks just to stay in a job they hate.
We have all had crap jobs but you have 2 choices - put up with it or leave, unfortunately some seem to want to put up with it and then moan about how hard and difficult it is on these pages.
FC80 - I may extol the virtues of SAR but that is because it is a brilliant job and I loved doing it for many years because of the challenges - I don't tell everyone how hard it was and then moan about how much I hated it which appears to be the corporate pilots maxim.
Julie - Captaincy is bringing the crew with you and including them in your decision, not something that has ever been a problem I have found. If you are single pilot then clearly the communication loop is somewhat quicker.
Does an airline pilot ask the pax in !st class if it is OK for him to divert due to weather???
Crab Does an airline pilot ask the pax in !st class if it is OK for him to divert due to weather???
The airline pilot Capt Biggles Ex RAF WingCo VD&Scar, doesn't ask 1st class, he tells them. He is employed by the Acme Airline Co, and operates to those AOC requirements, with loads of peeps providing back up and support for his choice. (Most of the time). There might even be a bloke/blokess sitting next to him saying 'no' too. The posh passenger don't employ him. If they annoy him he can even throw them off the plane if he keeps to the rules set down by his employer, and, Brucie Bonus time, keep, his job. He may even get a mention in despatches for being such a good bloke by the Acme Air Co for throwing the passenger/s off and keeping the other posh passengers happy. The posh pax are expecting him to take them to an airport that they've booked to fly to.
The corporate pilot Capt Bloggs Ex RAF WingCo VD&Scar, gets told by his 1st class passenger that they are going to go. However he is employed by his 1st class passenger, his posh passenger can tell him not to come to work. Ever. Bloggs often doesn't have the back up of an AOC/Ops room or someone in the cheap seats on the left saying 'no'. If his passenger annoys him he can throw them off the plane. His posh passenger can tell him not to come to work. Ever. His Posh passenger is paying him to take him from Posh House to Posh Hotel, in a posh helicopter that he has paid for and wants to use.
You mentioned you're teaching new guys SPIFR, how much course time in the ground school section do you spend on CAP371?
Now I'm not even an engine driver, but I can see the difference.
You mentioned you're teaching new guys SPIFR, how much course time in the ground school section do you spend on CAP371?
You rather miss my point - in both cases the people in the back are passengers, not crew - whether they be owners or not; they don't hold the pilot's licence and IR, it is the guy in the front seat and he has a whole raft of legislation, rules and regs (CAP371 included) that dictate how he does his job - not the bloke in the suit sat behind him.
If the bloke in the suit wants to make aviation decisions, he can get a licence himself and then understand why he is being an Ar*e to try and second guess the professional in the front.
How many of these corporate customers would be happy asking their limousine driver to go at 150 mph down the M4 in fog????
Do they know better just because they have money/power/influence??
I get that it is a job which can be very good or appallingly bad but that is still down to the pilot and his professional integrity to decide.
At some point the old maxim of 'No stick - no Vote' has to come into play. Do you want to lose just your job or your life as well?
Crab.....if you have one of the Air Marshals or whatever you call the Top Dogs in the RAF in the back of your Bus and he directs you to do something quite out of order and you tell him to get stuffed....how would that reflect on your Promotion possibilities or retention in service?
Tell me you could win in that Willy Waving Contest!
The RAF is just like Corporate VIP flying.....piss off the Boss Fellah at your very own Peril I would wager.
Tell me you could win in that Willy Waving Contest!
The RAF is just like Corporate VIP flying.....piss off the Boss Fellah at your very own Peril I would wager.
How much does "company culture" come into the acceptance or otherwise of pressure to fly in the corporate world ? Clearly some such operators are purely one man/one machine private bands while others are integrated into a wider commercial company structure where more than one machine and a mix of ops is involved- ie Haughey Air or Rotormotion that may or may not run commercial, ie public transport ops alongside/in parallel with the private/corporate stuff.
Surely here lies a wide dichotomy in both rule and role play?
Purely depending on the identity of the client the same man/machine system can operate to two completely different sets of rules in exactly the same operating environment - they may go to Ascot on one day with client "A" on one set of rules and the following day do exactly the same trip with client "B" on a totally different set. The mindset then tends to morph into pressonitis regardless. History is full of them.
Is this not going to cause a muddying of the rules in even the best regulated of companies?
We have seen the result of sloppy operations control in the accidents to Haughey Air that seem to me to illustrate this concept. How widespread is this situation likely to be? Do gash operators bring about accidents by subverting good pilots to operate as gash ones? I've seen far too many good pilots subverted by gash operators to know otherwise though thankfully Professionalism among the pilots almost always prevents the potential accidents.
It seems to me that the blame for chancing this sort of event is as likely to rest on the company's expectations as on the individual pilot - I don't mean to absolve the pilot of his responsibiities but company pressure can be devastatingly powerful in overwhelming an individual's Professionalism.
I have seen this first hand in several companies (FW and Rotary) and have lost my job for reacting to the pressure more than once so it isn't much of a mystery to me. I have to say that unpleasant as each occasion was it was not a substantial handicap in further employment, and in some cases quite the opposite.
Am I alone in wondering why this isn't a more frequent topic in the "How the **** did that ever happen?" discussions?
I wonder how many of us have not heard of an accident to a particular person/organisation/operator and thought "How the hell did he/they get away with it for that long". Some of course did get away with it insh'allah tho it must have made even his eyes water, but I suppose in those blessed cases no deadly harm was done.
Perhaps this accident was nothing to do with this sort of thing at all, but no doubt others more current than I in the industry will be better placed to judge.
Surely here lies a wide dichotomy in both rule and role play?
Purely depending on the identity of the client the same man/machine system can operate to two completely different sets of rules in exactly the same operating environment - they may go to Ascot on one day with client "A" on one set of rules and the following day do exactly the same trip with client "B" on a totally different set. The mindset then tends to morph into pressonitis regardless. History is full of them.
Is this not going to cause a muddying of the rules in even the best regulated of companies?
We have seen the result of sloppy operations control in the accidents to Haughey Air that seem to me to illustrate this concept. How widespread is this situation likely to be? Do gash operators bring about accidents by subverting good pilots to operate as gash ones? I've seen far too many good pilots subverted by gash operators to know otherwise though thankfully Professionalism among the pilots almost always prevents the potential accidents.
It seems to me that the blame for chancing this sort of event is as likely to rest on the company's expectations as on the individual pilot - I don't mean to absolve the pilot of his responsibiities but company pressure can be devastatingly powerful in overwhelming an individual's Professionalism.
I have seen this first hand in several companies (FW and Rotary) and have lost my job for reacting to the pressure more than once so it isn't much of a mystery to me. I have to say that unpleasant as each occasion was it was not a substantial handicap in further employment, and in some cases quite the opposite.
Am I alone in wondering why this isn't a more frequent topic in the "How the **** did that ever happen?" discussions?
I wonder how many of us have not heard of an accident to a particular person/organisation/operator and thought "How the hell did he/they get away with it for that long". Some of course did get away with it insh'allah tho it must have made even his eyes water, but I suppose in those blessed cases no deadly harm was done.
Perhaps this accident was nothing to do with this sort of thing at all, but no doubt others more current than I in the industry will be better placed to judge.
Last edited by Wageslave; 1st Dec 2015 at 23:18.
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Crab;
To paraphrase: Those who haven't teach." So straight from telling all of us who have done your other job in SAR that we know nothing, now for those of us who have taught SP/IFR and fly SP/IFR for a living you are the expert.Do all of us a favour and wind it in. You obviously know the square root of f*** all about corporate/charter. Teaching SP/IFR is as far removed from flying it as driving a mini is from driving an F1 car.
ShyT and I are old enough, ugly enough (well at least I am) and experienced enough (Willy wave here, 10 500 hours rotary, 5 000 fixed wing, the last 16 years spent in SP/IFR rotary and fixed wing combined) to know what we write about. I have watched inexperienced pilots bullied into flying, have lost jobs because I've refused to fly, been pressurised by more millionaires than there are pilots doing my type of work, had one bright spark keep his hand on the passenger call button knowing that I couldn't hear above the noise of it because we were diverting and he didn't want to, been screamed at, sworn at and threatened. Told a couple of now dead customers to stuff it, and you apparently know it all. Do us all a favour: SP/IFR around northern Europe is the hardest work I have ever done in aviation, frankly I'd love to go back to the "easy life" of SAR. Spare me your colossal expertise, your knowledge of corporate ops ain't worth ****.
SND
To paraphrase: Those who haven't teach." So straight from telling all of us who have done your other job in SAR that we know nothing, now for those of us who have taught SP/IFR and fly SP/IFR for a living you are the expert.Do all of us a favour and wind it in. You obviously know the square root of f*** all about corporate/charter. Teaching SP/IFR is as far removed from flying it as driving a mini is from driving an F1 car.
ShyT and I are old enough, ugly enough (well at least I am) and experienced enough (Willy wave here, 10 500 hours rotary, 5 000 fixed wing, the last 16 years spent in SP/IFR rotary and fixed wing combined) to know what we write about. I have watched inexperienced pilots bullied into flying, have lost jobs because I've refused to fly, been pressurised by more millionaires than there are pilots doing my type of work, had one bright spark keep his hand on the passenger call button knowing that I couldn't hear above the noise of it because we were diverting and he didn't want to, been screamed at, sworn at and threatened. Told a couple of now dead customers to stuff it, and you apparently know it all. Do us all a favour: SP/IFR around northern Europe is the hardest work I have ever done in aviation, frankly I'd love to go back to the "easy life" of SAR. Spare me your colossal expertise, your knowledge of corporate ops ain't worth ****.
SND
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: White Waltham, Prestwick & Calgary
Age: 72
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"Do they know better just because they have money/power/influence?"
Yes, they do! Robert Maxwell [spit sideways] allegedly used to dicatate that when he was in the machine the 2 minute rundown would not be observed. Makes Alton Towers look like a picnic by comparison.
Sir Niall - we've obviously chewed some of the same dirt!
phil
BTW - the worst customers were not the aristocracy.
Yes, they do! Robert Maxwell [spit sideways] allegedly used to dicatate that when he was in the machine the 2 minute rundown would not be observed. Makes Alton Towers look like a picnic by comparison.
Sir Niall - we've obviously chewed some of the same dirt!
phil
BTW - the worst customers were not the aristocracy.
Last edited by paco; 3rd Dec 2015 at 18:00.