UK NPAS discussion thread: Mk 4
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Thread Starter
Silsoe, the question was banter.
"When the new planks arrive in 2015 what happens to the crews at the nominated units in earlier posts?
Do the TFO's get to fly both types, or is one put to bed or shipped out?
Are the pilots being retrained to fly planks, or are they being moved to other pastures for 18 months?
I would imagine finding pilots with dual licences hard to find?"
a. fair question
b. another two fair questions
c. clearly a ridiculous question neither playful nor original and clearly not intelligent; followed by another fair question
d. a fair statement
banter:
Supple term used to describe activities or chat that is playful, intelligent and original. Banter is something you either posses or lack, there is no middle ground. It is also something inherently English, stemming as it does from traditional hi-jinks and tomfoolery of British yesteryear.
Sorry, the advice given in the banter section of my Hong Kong Book of Kung Fu, detects no banter there!
Besides this tomfoolery, what would be/have been the fixed wing jocks qualifying requirements?
For the same reason someone said the "pilot" interview became one of current affairs and politically correct decision making - so to, the time has come to apply similar perspectives to the vehicles used. 6 new FW on the horizon - presumably to eventually replace between 4 and 6 RW.
New pilots recruited almost certainly - I can't see the cops paying for FW conversions can you? I wonder how compulsory retirement will go down?
I heard from a colleague of mine last week that NPAS is becoming even more of a political football now that PCC's are getting involved and slowly but surely the whole process is re-morphing into yet another governmental morass.
Good luck to you all.
Gery Atric - I don't think you actually understand what aptitude is all about, methinks. I know where you are coming from and that you mean well, but you are wide of the mark..
New pilots recruited almost certainly - I can't see the cops paying for FW conversions can you? I wonder how compulsory retirement will go down?
I heard from a colleague of mine last week that NPAS is becoming even more of a political football now that PCC's are getting involved and slowly but surely the whole process is re-morphing into yet another governmental morass.
Good luck to you all.
Gery Atric - I don't think you actually understand what aptitude is all about, methinks. I know where you are coming from and that you mean well, but you are wide of the mark..
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Thread Starter
Political Football
One thing that needs to be remembered in all this, especially up in West Yorks, is the last paragraph of the report;
In addition to that statement, what best way to totally wash ones hands than to get all the PCCc & CC's together and ask them what they would like from a National Police Aviation Service.
If that were to be asked, I wonder the reaction if the overwhelming reply was ….. what we had before!
Maybe the strong arm of the Home Office would be called in again, which surprises me they haven't in the situation we have with the Met!
NPAS in itself has no legal identity. West Yorkshire
Police employs the staff and the Officer of the Police
and Crime Commissioner for West Yorkshire own the
assets. NPAS is an operational department within West
Yorkshire Police and the content of this annual report
should be read in this context.
Police employs the staff and the Officer of the Police
and Crime Commissioner for West Yorkshire own the
assets. NPAS is an operational department within West
Yorkshire Police and the content of this annual report
should be read in this context.
In addition to that statement, what best way to totally wash ones hands than to get all the PCCc & CC's together and ask them what they would like from a National Police Aviation Service.
If that were to be asked, I wonder the reaction if the overwhelming reply was ….. what we had before!
Maybe the strong arm of the Home Office would be called in again, which surprises me they haven't in the situation we have with the Met!
JT2
"Hopefully the interviews are a little better these days."
Nope.
MightyGem.
"And then there's worrying about stalling and spinning into Mrs Miggins's back garden when trying keep a scally in view."
Unlikely that those asking questions on the interview panel have any idea of what stalling or spinning, in an aviation context, actually is.
"Hopefully the interviews are a little better these days."
Nope.
MightyGem.
"And then there's worrying about stalling and spinning into Mrs Miggins's back garden when trying keep a scally in view."
Unlikely that those asking questions on the interview panel have any idea of what stalling or spinning, in an aviation context, actually is.
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The concern about 'stalling and spinning in' is obviously a valid one … which is where my comment about piloting 'aptitude' came in. Evidently, I (or more correctly, the men in the driving seat) managed to avoid doing it over many years and hours, otherwise I would not be here to write this.
Not wishing to start a war therefore,Thomas coupling, I'm always willing to listen and learn. You presumably interpret 'aptitude' in a way that is different to me, or are seeing it from a different perspective.
I'm taking the common-sense dictionary of 'having a natural ability'. I agree than it can be argued that, in order for anyone to perform some specialised or skilled task, they need some degree of innate ability. But it comes in different orders of magnitude. And I have flown with some pilots (who were under assessment or training) who could demonstrate all of the skills that you would expect of someone who has been granted a CPL/ATPL … but they just weren't comfortable (or assessed as being confident or safe) doing all those piloty things whilst waffling around at low speeds at 1500 feet (and sometimes less). Some had earned their hours sat at FL Nosebleed crossing the Atlantic, etc.
Requirements for F/W pilots? We specified Minimum CPL/IR, 1000 hrs total, 500 hrs multi-engine, 100hrs turbine (not relevant here) … but preferred ATPL with 1500 hrs, 500 hr turbine, and 200 hrs night multi, with similar role flying experience … plus of course interview and flight test in a similar regime to what they were being recruited for.
Not wishing to start a war therefore,Thomas coupling, I'm always willing to listen and learn. You presumably interpret 'aptitude' in a way that is different to me, or are seeing it from a different perspective.
I'm taking the common-sense dictionary of 'having a natural ability'. I agree than it can be argued that, in order for anyone to perform some specialised or skilled task, they need some degree of innate ability. But it comes in different orders of magnitude. And I have flown with some pilots (who were under assessment or training) who could demonstrate all of the skills that you would expect of someone who has been granted a CPL/ATPL … but they just weren't comfortable (or assessed as being confident or safe) doing all those piloty things whilst waffling around at low speeds at 1500 feet (and sometimes less). Some had earned their hours sat at FL Nosebleed crossing the Atlantic, etc.
Requirements for F/W pilots? We specified Minimum CPL/IR, 1000 hrs total, 500 hrs multi-engine, 100hrs turbine (not relevant here) … but preferred ATPL with 1500 hrs, 500 hr turbine, and 200 hrs night multi, with similar role flying experience … plus of course interview and flight test in a similar regime to what they were being recruited for.
I heard from a colleague of mine last week that NPAS is becoming even more of a political football
The concern about 'stalling and spinning in' is obviously a valid one
Gerry: Forgive me - I don't know anything about you, but can surmise that you are probably a cop and do not have any aviation (flying) background. What you have gleaned about aptitude is purely whilst on the job -yes?
Your coments are littered with inappropriate words, such as:
No visual cues???
natural ability.
flown with some pilots under assessment?
Assessed as NOt being competent or safe?
I know what the requirements are for a police pilot, I was one for 14 years. I was also an Instructor and have flown both types (FW and RW) in my 30+ years of committing aviation.
I'm not entirely sure this is a wind up (because of the lack of responses from current serving pilots) so apologies if I fall prey to someone's inate sense of humour.
1. natural ability in pilots in inordinately rare. In my lifetime I have come across a hand full of 'natural pilots'.
2. How have you been flying with: pilots under assessment / incompetent pilots / unsafe pilots during your time as an TFO?
ALL pilots who are qualified to fly helicopters (that includes FW pilots too) are easily capable of "waffling around at 1500'". ALL of them are capable of doing the job provided they have met the basic entry criteria. Don't even think otherwise.
You may have personally experienced some differences between one FW pilot and another, or one RW and another - but they are slight and innocuous.
You wouldn't be able to spot major flaws in their flying capabilities during police ops (in general) because the job of flying police helicopters at 'most' air bases is not in the least - demanding. It is simply taxi driving the cops to and from the job in hand. Some sites have very onerous tasking (mainly those stuck out in the hills) and they do work the spectrum of helo flying more expansively - and are appropriately better experienced at it.
But most police flying ESPECIALLY FW police work is monotonous and undemanding.
If you've had a bad experience with police pilots in the past - I would suggest it's more to do with the amount of moaning they have done rather than the amount of skill they display carrying out a mundane job.
Stick to cop stuff.
MightyGem: Since when? I have absolutely nothing to do with NPAS these days......you have me mixed up with......
Your coments are littered with inappropriate words, such as:
No visual cues???
natural ability.
flown with some pilots under assessment?
Assessed as NOt being competent or safe?
I know what the requirements are for a police pilot, I was one for 14 years. I was also an Instructor and have flown both types (FW and RW) in my 30+ years of committing aviation.
I'm not entirely sure this is a wind up (because of the lack of responses from current serving pilots) so apologies if I fall prey to someone's inate sense of humour.
1. natural ability in pilots in inordinately rare. In my lifetime I have come across a hand full of 'natural pilots'.
2. How have you been flying with: pilots under assessment / incompetent pilots / unsafe pilots during your time as an TFO?
ALL pilots who are qualified to fly helicopters (that includes FW pilots too) are easily capable of "waffling around at 1500'". ALL of them are capable of doing the job provided they have met the basic entry criteria. Don't even think otherwise.
You may have personally experienced some differences between one FW pilot and another, or one RW and another - but they are slight and innocuous.
You wouldn't be able to spot major flaws in their flying capabilities during police ops (in general) because the job of flying police helicopters at 'most' air bases is not in the least - demanding. It is simply taxi driving the cops to and from the job in hand. Some sites have very onerous tasking (mainly those stuck out in the hills) and they do work the spectrum of helo flying more expansively - and are appropriately better experienced at it.
But most police flying ESPECIALLY FW police work is monotonous and undemanding.
If you've had a bad experience with police pilots in the past - I would suggest it's more to do with the amount of moaning they have done rather than the amount of skill they display carrying out a mundane job.
Stick to cop stuff.
MightyGem: Since when? I have absolutely nothing to do with NPAS these days......you have me mixed up with......
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Thomas coupling …
Thank you for your reply. I couldn't expect you to know my background in detail. To save cluttering up this forum with information that I'm sure sure that most people don't want to read, I'll PM you with the story of my aviation life. In summary, I spent 18 years on fixed wing, doing a wide range of tasks that included most of what rotary do, and quite a few that they don't or can't. As observers we we expected to carry out tasks that might be considered those of a Pilots Assistant … all checklists, maybe changing radio frequencies, dealing with Approach Plates, keeping PLOGS. We were expected to be capable of working out weight and balance drop load sheets if necessary (until we devised standard loads). We did daily elements of the Check 'A's under the pilots supervision. All listed in our POAM Pt2 and obviously under the auspices of the pilot.
Yes, I have flown with some gifted pilots, some of questionable competency (peer and senior pilot opinions, not purely my own), and one who did something so unsafe that he was invited to leave (or be pushed/prosecuted). We were regular passengers on training flights (now considered unacceptable) to the extent of being on board during full engine shut-downs, stalls,etc. The reasoning being to monitor and shut down role equipment during engine restarts (there was no role equipment or Auxilliary Busbar … an 'oversight' during construction of the aircraft!!!!).
As for 'no visual cues' … I mean exactly that (part from instruments). I have been tasked to rural areas where there has been absolutely NOTHING visible except on the TI camera (which was not viewable by the pilot).
I only spent two years on rotary (my last two)… glad that I did … a wholly different world, and I probably wouldn't recognise the nuances of differing capability in a rotary pilot (they all impressed me with their thoroughness and professionalism). But I'll quote you (in my PM) some f/w stories that you might agree would give anyone pause for thought. And I can't think of any (one, maybe, had some rotary experience) who were dual rated … they were all f/w only.
Looking back, I was extremely fortunate to have had the opportunities and experiences that I had, and to be part of a unit where there was no 'them and us' (pilots and police).
Did I ever imagine that it would be my main career when I joined as a PC in 1972? Never! Miss it? Yes, I do!
Thank you for your reply. I couldn't expect you to know my background in detail. To save cluttering up this forum with information that I'm sure sure that most people don't want to read, I'll PM you with the story of my aviation life. In summary, I spent 18 years on fixed wing, doing a wide range of tasks that included most of what rotary do, and quite a few that they don't or can't. As observers we we expected to carry out tasks that might be considered those of a Pilots Assistant … all checklists, maybe changing radio frequencies, dealing with Approach Plates, keeping PLOGS. We were expected to be capable of working out weight and balance drop load sheets if necessary (until we devised standard loads). We did daily elements of the Check 'A's under the pilots supervision. All listed in our POAM Pt2 and obviously under the auspices of the pilot.
Yes, I have flown with some gifted pilots, some of questionable competency (peer and senior pilot opinions, not purely my own), and one who did something so unsafe that he was invited to leave (or be pushed/prosecuted). We were regular passengers on training flights (now considered unacceptable) to the extent of being on board during full engine shut-downs, stalls,etc. The reasoning being to monitor and shut down role equipment during engine restarts (there was no role equipment or Auxilliary Busbar … an 'oversight' during construction of the aircraft!!!!).
As for 'no visual cues' … I mean exactly that (part from instruments). I have been tasked to rural areas where there has been absolutely NOTHING visible except on the TI camera (which was not viewable by the pilot).
I only spent two years on rotary (my last two)… glad that I did … a wholly different world, and I probably wouldn't recognise the nuances of differing capability in a rotary pilot (they all impressed me with their thoroughness and professionalism). But I'll quote you (in my PM) some f/w stories that you might agree would give anyone pause for thought. And I can't think of any (one, maybe, had some rotary experience) who were dual rated … they were all f/w only.
Looking back, I was extremely fortunate to have had the opportunities and experiences that I had, and to be part of a unit where there was no 'them and us' (pilots and police).
Did I ever imagine that it would be my main career when I joined as a PC in 1972? Never! Miss it? Yes, I do!
MightyGem: Since when? I have absolutely nothing to do with NPAS these days......you have me mixed up with......
Jayteeto said:
"the interview was nothing about aviation, all about politically correct stuff/conflict resolution etc etc. I didn't really enter into the spirit of that and came across quite poorly."
My interview (not for operational tasks) with the Met ASU was in the same vein. However, I met the HR lady arranging it all just minutes prior to the meeting and she said - "Don't worry, your the only applicant...Do you know what Diversity means?" I went on about Cattle farmers changing to holiday home management and she kindly corrected me...I got the job within 30 minutes.
"the interview was nothing about aviation, all about politically correct stuff/conflict resolution etc etc. I didn't really enter into the spirit of that and came across quite poorly."
My interview (not for operational tasks) with the Met ASU was in the same vein. However, I met the HR lady arranging it all just minutes prior to the meeting and she said - "Don't worry, your the only applicant...Do you know what Diversity means?" I went on about Cattle farmers changing to holiday home management and she kindly corrected me...I got the job within 30 minutes.
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I'll give you a clue,
Q. Tell me when you have worked in a team?
JT2. All my working life, Oh, I'm working in a team now, doing this job for the last 7 years.
Q. Yes, but other than that, when have you worked in a team?
JT2. I'm applying to be a police helicopter pilot here, I am doing the job now, very well so I'm told. I have 3 Chief Constables Commendations. Why are you asking me this when I can show evidence of doing the job well??
Q. Its a standard question list for all of the candidates.
JT2. Ok, I think I have suitably answered that question.
Q. Oh all right, we will move on. Tell me when you have recently had to resolve a conflict at work.
JT2. How recently do you mean?
Q. In the last 5 years.
JT2. I can honestly state that I have never had to resolve any sort of conflict at work in the last 5 years. I work in a constituted crew and we get on like a house on fire.
Q. There must be something that has needed resolution?
JT2. No.
Q. Are you telling me that you have had no problems in the last 5 years that you can discuss here?
JT2. Oooh!! I see, you want me to make one up?
Q. No, no we don't!
JT2. Look, I want this job, I can do it well, I will get on just fine with your crews. The reason I am applying is that I have been told it may be possible to fly the helicopter AND the Islander. This really motivates me a lot. I was told that I was coming here for an informal chat, not a full structured interview. I think its pretty obvious that I am not answering your questions well, anything else.
Q. No, thanks for coming, we will let you know.
I left, phoned the pilot providing company and told them that I had failed the interview, thanks for the opportunity.
Q. Tell me when you have worked in a team?
JT2. All my working life, Oh, I'm working in a team now, doing this job for the last 7 years.
Q. Yes, but other than that, when have you worked in a team?
JT2. I'm applying to be a police helicopter pilot here, I am doing the job now, very well so I'm told. I have 3 Chief Constables Commendations. Why are you asking me this when I can show evidence of doing the job well??
Q. Its a standard question list for all of the candidates.
JT2. Ok, I think I have suitably answered that question.
Q. Oh all right, we will move on. Tell me when you have recently had to resolve a conflict at work.
JT2. How recently do you mean?
Q. In the last 5 years.
JT2. I can honestly state that I have never had to resolve any sort of conflict at work in the last 5 years. I work in a constituted crew and we get on like a house on fire.
Q. There must be something that has needed resolution?
JT2. No.
Q. Are you telling me that you have had no problems in the last 5 years that you can discuss here?
JT2. Oooh!! I see, you want me to make one up?
Q. No, no we don't!
JT2. Look, I want this job, I can do it well, I will get on just fine with your crews. The reason I am applying is that I have been told it may be possible to fly the helicopter AND the Islander. This really motivates me a lot. I was told that I was coming here for an informal chat, not a full structured interview. I think its pretty obvious that I am not answering your questions well, anything else.
Q. No, thanks for coming, we will let you know.
I left, phoned the pilot providing company and told them that I had failed the interview, thanks for the opportunity.
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Remember the comedy duo of John Bird and John Fortune, and their spoof interviews? Or some of the Two Ronnies sketches.
jayteeto …. your recount of the interview …. priceless!!!
Had you ever thought of giving up flying for a career in comedy? Script-writing! I think that you've missed your calling!
jayteeto …. your recount of the interview …. priceless!!!
Had you ever thought of giving up flying for a career in comedy? Script-writing! I think that you've missed your calling!
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Yes … nice hangar.
Anyone wish to challenge the mantra, "NPAS provides a national, borderless service making use of the nearest aircraft, enhancing the police service's response. The underlying principle of NPAS is a national service, regionally coordinated for local delivery. NPAS provides an air service to 98% of the population of England and Wales within 20 minutes. Twenty-five NPAS aircraft reside at 23 strategic locations, ready for action 24 hours a day"
Anyone wish to challenge the mantra, "NPAS provides a national, borderless service making use of the nearest aircraft, enhancing the police service's response. The underlying principle of NPAS is a national service, regionally coordinated for local delivery. NPAS provides an air service to 98% of the population of England and Wales within 20 minutes. Twenty-five NPAS aircraft reside at 23 strategic locations, ready for action 24 hours a day"
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We had just as nice a hangar at Lippetts Hill in 1981 but we also had a control room which could do local and operational control. Our floor was just as clean but today's paint may be improved. Is the wheel being re- invented?
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Thread Starter
Gerry, that statement holds true ..... well, apart from anything in it that is quantifiable.