UK NPAS discussion thread: Mk 4
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Thread Starter
Max, you may be interested to see this video, part of a not so recent PNAS get together, presented by 'them' to an open forum;
For those of us that have seen it before, try it with the sound off.
For those of us that have seen it before, try it with the sound off.
Nail the Dream
In case you did not question the erroneous figures in the article....
That article stated only one Explorer but there are quite a few more than that so I am unsure where the number [or the typo] came from.
In case you did not question the erroneous figures in the article....
That article stated only one Explorer but there are quite a few more than that so I am unsure where the number [or the typo] came from.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Thread Starter
"PPRuNe is known in European and English Speaking Pilot circles and is cited by media in reports relating to aviation. Since the site has more than 250,000 registered members, many of them pilots, the site is sometimes at the center of debates about aviation issues in the news"
To put it into 'who cares' figures Max, there are 4 dedicated threads to this topic, in reality it is one large thread in 4 chunks on PPRuNe;
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/397...dget-cuts.html
posts 2,139
views 222,195
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/473...ad-mk-2-a.html
posts 961
views 138,191
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/524...ad-mk-3-a.html
posts 256
views 84,208
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/527...ad-mk-4-a.html
posts 457
views 888,354
That's a total of 3,813 posts and 1,332,948 views.
This makes it the most replied to thread on Rotorheads (and second most viewed thread on Rotorheads, only just topped by 'Bristows')
As it stands in the ratings for the whole of the PPRuNe website, looking at the first 3 pages of every forum on PPRuNe, (i.e. most current & active threads) it is the second highest thread for views and posts behind the http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/5...tact-lost.html thread.
The country's Policing and Crime Commissioners (PCC's) & Chief Constables (CC's) meeting with NPAS programmed for later this month has apparently been postponed, coincidentally the Met have no plans to join PNAS anytime in the near future. With this meeting in mind, I wonder how many of the PCC's and CC's had visited their local/regional air support units, in preparation for the meeting?
At some time in the near future there will be this rescheduled meeting for the PCC's & CC's to discuss no doubt amongst other items, further cuts. Isn't it ironic that helicopter support for the country may be further reduced from the original 33 helicopters down to possibly 18 or even 11, supplemented with 6 fixed wing. Elsewhere dog sections, firearms, traffic etc etc, you know … those front line positions, have been merging and cutting back, all in the name of savings, yet despite this, in England & Wales (PNAS operating area) we still have 41 Chief Constables, and we also have 41 PCC's that replaced the 41 Police Authorities and some of these PCC's offices cost more than the Authorities that they replaced. BBC News - Four of six East PCCs 'cost more' than police authorities.
To sum up Max, there does actually appear to be a great deal of interest in the subject of 'police air operations in the UK', where it is going & how it's getting there, but with who and where that interest lies, is perhaps worthy of its own thread!
MaxR;
I'm not involved in police aviation so please forgive me if this is a stupid question but are you guys saying that this service costs more than the one it replaced, achieves less than the one it replaced, can't get its facts straight about the money it spends, the number of aircraft it has or the amount of cover it gives and no-one cares but you? Politicians, senior police officers, PCCs, no-one?
Is that really what you're saying?
I'm not involved in police aviation so please forgive me if this is a stupid question but are you guys saying that this service costs more than the one it replaced, achieves less than the one it replaced, can't get its facts straight about the money it spends, the number of aircraft it has or the amount of cover it gives and no-one cares but you? Politicians, senior police officers, PCCs, no-one?
Is that really what you're saying?
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/397...dget-cuts.html
posts 2,139
views 222,195
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/473...ad-mk-2-a.html
posts 961
views 138,191
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/524...ad-mk-3-a.html
posts 256
views 84,208
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/527...ad-mk-4-a.html
posts 457
views 888,354
That's a total of 3,813 posts and 1,332,948 views.
This makes it the most replied to thread on Rotorheads (and second most viewed thread on Rotorheads, only just topped by 'Bristows')
As it stands in the ratings for the whole of the PPRuNe website, looking at the first 3 pages of every forum on PPRuNe, (i.e. most current & active threads) it is the second highest thread for views and posts behind the http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/5...tact-lost.html thread.
The country's Policing and Crime Commissioners (PCC's) & Chief Constables (CC's) meeting with NPAS programmed for later this month has apparently been postponed, coincidentally the Met have no plans to join PNAS anytime in the near future. With this meeting in mind, I wonder how many of the PCC's and CC's had visited their local/regional air support units, in preparation for the meeting?
At some time in the near future there will be this rescheduled meeting for the PCC's & CC's to discuss no doubt amongst other items, further cuts. Isn't it ironic that helicopter support for the country may be further reduced from the original 33 helicopters down to possibly 18 or even 11, supplemented with 6 fixed wing. Elsewhere dog sections, firearms, traffic etc etc, you know … those front line positions, have been merging and cutting back, all in the name of savings, yet despite this, in England & Wales (PNAS operating area) we still have 41 Chief Constables, and we also have 41 PCC's that replaced the 41 Police Authorities and some of these PCC's offices cost more than the Authorities that they replaced. BBC News - Four of six East PCCs 'cost more' than police authorities.
To sum up Max, there does actually appear to be a great deal of interest in the subject of 'police air operations in the UK', where it is going & how it's getting there, but with who and where that interest lies, is perhaps worthy of its own thread!
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Thread Starter
... just like every other thread that the figures are compared against.
The point is, the discussion continues; and in reference to Max's post, by those that care.
The point is, the discussion continues; and in reference to Max's post, by those that care.
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Mmm something smells here.
MaxR is from the press Silsoe - beware.
Of the 3800+ posts on NPAS, you have to accept that 3700 are yours now don't you
I hear on the streets that the Met are very uncomfortable joining under the umbrella of a rural police force much smaller than them and controlling some very expensive Met assets. There is a head to head of C.C's it seems and that is why the meeting has been postponed......
Undoubtedly - the fleet will be further "rationalised", it makes sense to me as an outsider that for many forces, a cheap and cheerful aeroplane can do what 'some' police helicopters are achieving at a quantum increase in cost by comparison.
Surely a light aircraft with mainly civilians and one policeman (SME) onboard is the way ahead - no?
MaxR is from the press Silsoe - beware.
Of the 3800+ posts on NPAS, you have to accept that 3700 are yours now don't you
I hear on the streets that the Met are very uncomfortable joining under the umbrella of a rural police force much smaller than them and controlling some very expensive Met assets. There is a head to head of C.C's it seems and that is why the meeting has been postponed......
Undoubtedly - the fleet will be further "rationalised", it makes sense to me as an outsider that for many forces, a cheap and cheerful aeroplane can do what 'some' police helicopters are achieving at a quantum increase in cost by comparison.
Surely a light aircraft with mainly civilians and one policeman (SME) onboard is the way ahead - no?
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Thread Starter
Senior;
MaxR is from the press Silsoe - beware.
Of the 3800+ posts on NPAS, you have to accept that 3700 are yours now don't you
MaxR is from the press Silsoe - beware.
Of the 3800+ posts on NPAS, you have to accept that 3700 are yours now don't you
As it happens, of the 3,800+ posts on NPAS, I can only claim 219 of them, oops that's now 220
Funny that you should mention a rural policing model, aeroplane and single crewing in the same post, I guess the whole fixed wing issue is based on misper searches and thermals not being 'dynamic tasking'.
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Hasn't a fixed wing trial been carried out? I heard rumour it had started from Benson with a low-winged 
twin, but didn't follow it up to see what happened, or is it still going?
Much as I understand the sentiment, and I'm sure PNAS would be keen to pick up the first adjective, I don't think the CAA will be too keen on anything too cheap or basic = slow & limited capacity. There're going to insist on a twin, surely, which will benefit from a turn of speed, if it's to achieve any advantage in the wider airspace/operating area. Anything small will mean minimal crew/Police with attendant limitations on what can be achieved? Certainly, as SS notes, reactionary effectiveness will fall by the wayside, unless the task's within sensible range of a rotary base, of which there may be fewer, if I read the runes here correctly?
twin, but didn't follow it up to see what happened, or is it still going?
. . a cheap and cheerful aeroplane . . . Surely a light aircraft . . .
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Thread Starter
http://www.vulcanair.com/userfiles/f...11-2013(1).pdf
Unless I'm much mistaken, isn't the P68R powered by Avgas?
Twice as expensive as Jet A1 and as there isn't any supplied there any more, I guess Birmingham for one won't be getting too many visits
Update on the Roskilde incident here
Unless I'm much mistaken, isn't the P68R powered by Avgas?
Twice as expensive as Jet A1 and as there isn't any supplied there any more, I guess Birmingham for one won't be getting too many visits
Update on the Roskilde incident here
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Thread Starter
It's at the top of this 6 page list
Bureau of Aircraft Accidents Archives
Total of crashes: 57
Total of fatalities: 116
Aviation Safety Network
59 occurrences in the ASN safety database,
showing occurrence 1 - 59
Bureau of Aircraft Accidents Archives
Total of crashes: 57
Total of fatalities: 116
Aviation Safety Network
59 occurrences in the ASN safety database,
showing occurrence 1 - 59
Last edited by SilsoeSid; 17th Oct 2014 at 19:02. Reason: addition of ASN listing
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Thread Starter
I think NPAS Birmingham still have a runway
Nail
Nail
Guess they'll be having their cards marked then!
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Thread Starter
Fuel bowsers, now that's a funny old story at the moment in the world of PNAS, deserving of a 'couldn't make it up' award! One that even I wouldn't tell here
Not sure which type is actually going to be chosen, but the trial ac is featured here, with answers to the questions Vulcanair P68R: safety first
With such range and endurance, why buy 6?
Not sure which type is actually going to be chosen, but the trial ac is featured here, with answers to the questions Vulcanair P68R: safety first
With such range and endurance, why buy 6?
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Thats not a bad price 750,000 euros for a twin. EC135 = £5m
So in theory NPAS could be looking at lower purchases but higher fuel costs.
Whats the current EC135/MD 902 DOC's compared to the Vulacanair P68R.
It sounded very quiet on the low high speed flypast at the beginning, and 9 hours endurance! Writings on the wall me thinks.....
Who will be inline to get one of the 6 new planks and have any been ordered?
Wonder if NPAS chiefs noticed the ever increasing red map circle on the video? With that radius they will be flying perimeter patrols around oil rigs next
So in theory NPAS could be looking at lower purchases but higher fuel costs.
Whats the current EC135/MD 902 DOC's compared to the Vulacanair P68R.
It sounded very quiet on the low high speed flypast at the beginning, and 9 hours endurance! Writings on the wall me thinks.....
Who will be inline to get one of the 6 new planks and have any been ordered?
Wonder if NPAS chiefs noticed the ever increasing red map circle on the video? With that radius they will be flying perimeter patrols around oil rigs next
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Thread Starter
Anyone know what the weather limits will be for PNAS fixed wing?
It would be interesting to see what this fixed wing trial actually consisted of. Was it working next to a helicopter unit and taking on all that was requested?
I hear, and this is nothing but a rumour, that the 6 massive rings of fixed wing coverage will be presented to the PCC's and CC's meeting as a convincer to the reduction of rotary down to 11
Right, how do I stand with my 40 hrs Chipmunk?
It would be interesting to see what this fixed wing trial actually consisted of. Was it working next to a helicopter unit and taking on all that was requested?
I hear, and this is nothing but a rumour, that the 6 massive rings of fixed wing coverage will be presented to the PCC's and CC's meeting as a convincer to the reduction of rotary down to 11
Right, how do I stand with my 40 hrs Chipmunk?
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Here we go again re-inventing the wheel. I flew for the Met for several years in the early 80's and they had trialed fixed-wing operations and found that they had limited availability and poor response time, so they went for helicopters. It seems that the new NPAS has sacrificed response for "notional coverage" so no problem there for most of the country but I see why the MET are dragging their heels on joining. They don't want a watered down service.
Fixed-wing certainly do not meet the capability of heliteli surveillance in inner city ops. Try keeping eyes-on in a Regent Street demonstration in a plank- 2G 60 degree high power noisy turns over the inner city!
All the deficiencies being created with this programme will need to be covered direct from government on ther first occasion there is a national incident. What a waste of time, effort and money, and more importantly the lost experience of the local operators.
Fixed-wing certainly do not meet the capability of heliteli surveillance in inner city ops. Try keeping eyes-on in a Regent Street demonstration in a plank- 2G 60 degree high power noisy turns over the inner city!
All the deficiencies being created with this programme will need to be covered direct from government on ther first occasion there is a national incident. What a waste of time, effort and money, and more importantly the lost experience of the local operators.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Thread Starter
Cabby, you sure about the P68 costing €750,000? (£592,000)
According to the report, the fixed wing trial cost £310,000, which would be half the cost of a brand new aircraft and a tank of Avgas!!!
According to the report, the fixed wing trial cost £310,000, which would be half the cost of a brand new aircraft and a tank of Avgas!!!