UK SAR 2013 privatisation: the new thread
Breathe deeply Vie! Everyone who has seen the navy SAR flights do their thing up close knows that one of the key elements helping them to punch above their weight is the responsibility shared with the back. Hopefully one of them will PM to JB and help him understand.
Last edited by jimf671; 21st Jul 2013 at 22:49.
JunglieBeefer - you have made my point far better than I did
Bristow have said theirs will be a new ethos distilled from the best of the current systems - unfortunately from what can be gathered about their recruiting and manning policy it will be Navy SAR in a different uniform
Bristow have said theirs will be a new ethos distilled from the best of the current systems - unfortunately from what can be gathered about their recruiting and manning policy it will be Navy SAR in a different uniform
Last edited by Lala Steady; 22nd Jul 2013 at 07:51.
Junglie - when will you ever learn. La-la is only here to 'hook' people.....stay away if you can't cope with the baiting. However when you do speak you speak the truth!
Vie: SAR, like ALL complex tasking is only EVER about Captaincy. The term describes the command decision making that goes on. It is a generic description not neccessarily owned by pilots. Some Navy cabs have Captains sitting in the back as Observers for eg.
RAF SAR first tourers will ALWAYS have a more experienced 'Captain' sitting next to them and holding their hand. They will receive advice from the rear crew but ONLY the Captain will make the final decision. Hence "Captaincy".
You might be getting it mixed up with: SAR and Captaincy.
SAR is about getting the rear crew to the scene to do their stuff.
Captaincy is all about carrying out that act - safely and efficiently.
Overall - and this is for everyone out there....do not misunderstand:
SAR is NOT a black art, it is a run of the mill secondary duty for "experienced" crews. Nothing more and nothing less. However many have tried to build massive empires on the back of it. [Bit like HR!].
Vie: SAR, like ALL complex tasking is only EVER about Captaincy. The term describes the command decision making that goes on. It is a generic description not neccessarily owned by pilots. Some Navy cabs have Captains sitting in the back as Observers for eg.
RAF SAR first tourers will ALWAYS have a more experienced 'Captain' sitting next to them and holding their hand. They will receive advice from the rear crew but ONLY the Captain will make the final decision. Hence "Captaincy".
You might be getting it mixed up with: SAR and Captaincy.
SAR is about getting the rear crew to the scene to do their stuff.
Captaincy is all about carrying out that act - safely and efficiently.
Overall - and this is for everyone out there....do not misunderstand:
SAR is NOT a black art, it is a run of the mill secondary duty for "experienced" crews. Nothing more and nothing less. However many have tried to build massive empires on the back of it. [Bit like HR!].
The Coastguard have statutory responsibility for SAR below the high water mark and the routine location reference system is latitude and longitude.
The Police have statutory responsibility for SAR above the high water mark and the routine location reference system is the postcode.
The Police have statutory responsibility for SAR above the high water mark and the routine location reference system is the postcode.
Admittedly we tend to cover a small area compared to a SAR crew and the majority of it is done with a street atlas. However when called (fairly regularly) to go further afield we simply breakout the maps and navigate there..!!
The point is we actually do know how to use OS, Grid, Lat/Long... Whatever gets thrown at us.
Postcodes can be useful when using Skyforce... However only when navigating to a house.
We're more versatile than that thank you.
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Bristow have said theirs will be a new ethos distilled from the best of the current systems ... it will be Navy SAR in a different uniform
TC - you of all people should know better! Op Captaincy in the RAFSARF is exactly that - and there are no filters protecting a new Captain, he or she could be on shift with the least experienced co-pilot the day after being awarded captaincy - it's one of the reasons the Sqn Cdrs make such a big deal about it.
And, to be clear, SAR is not a black art but it requires lots of training to be good at it and 'run of the mill' it certainly isn't but only people with TC's background insist on thinking like that
And, to be clear, SAR is not a black art but it requires lots of training to be good at it and 'run of the mill' it certainly isn't but only people with TC's background insist on thinking like that
Crab: By that account then one could argue that a not very experienced RAF crew might be called upon to do any SAR mission - hence why it is relatively straight forward and uncomplicated and 'secondary'.....
My previous post was extolling the virtues of 'new' RAF ab initio's being escorted everywhere by more experienced Captains to start...before they are 'let loose'.
My previous post was extolling the virtues of 'new' RAF ab initio's being escorted everywhere by more experienced Captains to start...before they are 'let loose'.
... it will be Navy SAR in a different uniform
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La La et al,
My apologies I agree wholeheartedly that SAR is all about the guys down the back - however the argument I was responding to revolved around how there was going to be a drop in capability due to a change in aircraft - seeing as it is safe to assume that initally the majority of winchops and winchmen will be coming from the military and that their skills are not specific to a particular aircraft (dynamic risk assessment / paramedic skills / winch skills and a plethora of others ...) - I assumed that the drop in capability you were refering to (and specifically local area knowledge), related to of pilots adapting to the new aircraft - hence my point.
My post was not clear in this regard and apologies for any dispersion cast at the guys down the back.
Humbly yours,
JB
PS. La La with regard to you comment re drop in capability - what complete guff!
My apologies I agree wholeheartedly that SAR is all about the guys down the back - however the argument I was responding to revolved around how there was going to be a drop in capability due to a change in aircraft - seeing as it is safe to assume that initally the majority of winchops and winchmen will be coming from the military and that their skills are not specific to a particular aircraft (dynamic risk assessment / paramedic skills / winch skills and a plethora of others ...) - I assumed that the drop in capability you were refering to (and specifically local area knowledge), related to of pilots adapting to the new aircraft - hence my point.
My post was not clear in this regard and apologies for any dispersion cast at the guys down the back.
Humbly yours,
JB
PS. La La with regard to you comment re drop in capability - what complete guff!
If you replace a large proportion of the crab crews who do have the local knowledge and strength in depth from multiple SAR tours and replace them with 'done one tour and therefore SAR qualified' crews from the RN who only operate at 2 sites in UK - that's where you will find a drop in capability.
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Can I just say how much I am enjoying this thread
Lots of crabs just digging and digging.....
....and every self impressed statement makes them less and less likely to make up much of future SAR.
Carry on!
p.s. it's just hovering.
Lots of crabs just digging and digging.....
....and every self impressed statement makes them less and less likely to make up much of future SAR.
Carry on!
p.s. it's just hovering.
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Link as requested
jimf671 (is this your Dii login btw?)
Try google next time but here you go!
https://bristowsar.com/index.php/recruitment/
I'd suggest that WinchOp isn't quite the same as Observer but make of that what you will. Compared to an Observers' primary roles the winch bit is fairly straightforward from what I've seen.
SoL
Try google next time but here you go!
https://bristowsar.com/index.php/recruitment/
I'd suggest that WinchOp isn't quite the same as Observer but make of that what you will. Compared to an Observers' primary roles the winch bit is fairly straightforward from what I've seen.
SoL
(Last three from a very very early previous existence! DII much more complicated.)
One of the reasons that I am so sure that all the current providers have something to bring to the table is because of these differences in responsibilities and career structure either in the back or in the front.
This is the UK's first entirely planned service. If Bristow can be Darwinian about it then the diversity can breed evolution.
One of the reasons that I am so sure that all the current providers have something to bring to the table is because of these differences in responsibilities and career structure either in the back or in the front.
This is the UK's first entirely planned service. If Bristow can be Darwinian about it then the diversity can breed evolution.
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For me, one of the slightly more interesting bits about the Agusta Westland press release is this
Now, I could have sworn that there was a Labour Secretary of State for Defence called Geoff Hoon. If I remember correctly, he was rather suddenly reshuffled to Transport, and was subsequently dropped from all frontline politics after the 2010 Cash for Influence scandal. Or perhaps that was someone called Buff Hoon?
So, whoever it was, it seems that that famous revolving door is still merrily going round - especially when you remember that when that Hoon was Def Sec, AW was awarded a £1.7billion contract as preferred bidder to supply Future Lynx. I don't remember any other firm being invited to bid.
Funny old world.
airsound (who apologises for thread drift)
The contract was signed by ..... Geoff Hoon, Managing Director International Business, AgustaWestland,
So, whoever it was, it seems that that famous revolving door is still merrily going round - especially when you remember that when that Hoon was Def Sec, AW was awarded a £1.7billion contract as preferred bidder to supply Future Lynx. I don't remember any other firm being invited to bid.
Funny old world.
airsound (who apologises for thread drift)
Not so much thread drift as the revolving door not being news!
Anyone heard anything about the SAR prototype? That would be much more interesting.
Anyone heard anything about the SAR prototype? That would be much more interesting.
I must say, I am surprised to see the SVP International Business getting his mug shot into a UK signing photo opportunity, as one would think a photo shoot at Palam Air Force Base in India would be more in keeping with his position.
As some say, a funny old world.
As some say, a funny old world.
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Last edited by meanttobe; 31st Jul 2013 at 12:28.
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On their homepage https://bristowsar.com/ Bristow are claiming that they are 'the leading provider of search and rescue services in the UK'. How have they managed to reach these heights in just six weeks of GapSAR and what is the yardstick by which they are measuring their excellence?
Elsewhere they claim to have 'enormous respect for the service that our military colleagues have provided over the last 70 years of UK Search and Rescue'. Perhaps they could show some of that respect by dropping the claim that they already exceed their capabilities.
Elsewhere they claim to have 'enormous respect for the service that our military colleagues have provided over the last 70 years of UK Search and Rescue'. Perhaps they could show some of that respect by dropping the claim that they already exceed their capabilities.